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Weasling Weasel posted:There's a lot of cross-over there with a type of party that you don't want to be associated with Not really. There is zero crossover between silent on and actively pushing against. For an individual struggling to choose how to vote, all they need is to hear what they like and not hear what they don’t. Labour should never, ever, actively support moving the needle back on minority rights of any kind. But it can also let the LDs do the running on that: it doesn’t need to be The Party Of Minority Rights while it is in opposition. Labour exists to win a majority. So I think Labour should be status quo on minority rights and radical on changing the economic structure, and LDs should be the opposite.
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Dec 13, 2019 10:32
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Android Blues posted:Yep. Absolutely disastrous decision to back a second referendum - the result of Labour caving to pressure from the media and from within the party. One good reason why Starmer should not be the next leader - this policy was his project. You would have kept the heartlands with this tactic but lost the youth vote. In the end Labour would have still lost.
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Dec 13, 2019 10:32
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Aphex- posted:Saw this on twitter I am clinging on to this. Despite five times more spending and having the entire media establishment on side, more people voted non-tory than voted tory.
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Dec 13, 2019 10:32
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Morning goons, I got until page 250 and had to skip to the end. It looks like the Lib Dems successfully split the remain vote and let Tories in. It looks like we lost Laura Pidcock and Rebecca Long Bailey. It looks like Corbyn's intending to step down. Are there any leadership hopefuls we can get excited about? It looks like we're in for a very hard time. What can we do for the more vulnerable of us to carry them through to the next GE?
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Dec 13, 2019 10:34
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:I guess it turns out you really can though. The working class of the UK are an edge case that needs to have essays upon essays written on them. They are unlike the working class of anywhere else. They consistently vote against their interests with a fervour that makes no sense. My uneducated opinion is it’s to do with an unbroken aristocracy and an existing acting monarcy. The French brutally murdered theirs and their working class is in unending riots against the bastards. Our society still thinks aristocrats are cool and good. They don’t want socialism’s, they want to work hard so the lord of the manor tells them what a good worker they are. The closest to our society is America. Their working class is divided along chud vs non-chud. The chuds don’t necessarily worship the rich but they have aligned themselves with them so they can carry on their reign of terror against ‘undersirables’. Against them are groups of activists. Watching and tutting are the middle classes. This is our future I think. An activist class set against all other classes including the working class.
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Dec 13, 2019 10:35
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Regarde Aduck posted:The working class of the UK are an edge case that needs to have essays upon essays written on them. I think this is pretty perspicacious
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Dec 13, 2019 10:37
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Tesla was right posted:Morning goons, I got until page 250 and had to skip to the end. We didn't lose RLB. Her or Angela Rayner are plausible leadership[ hopefuls
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Dec 13, 2019 10:37
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fuf posted:I am clinging on to this. The LibDems hosed up in 2010. We could have AV by now at the very least. Instead we have brexit.
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Dec 13, 2019 10:37
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Not even scrapping tuition fees is enough to deter the Great British Peoples from Getting Brexit Done
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Dec 13, 2019 10:38
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xtothez posted:Lib Dems increased their vote share the most out of any party (+4.2%) and lost 1 seat. Lib Dems lost 10 seats. i.e 50% of their seats.
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Dec 13, 2019 10:39
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Mega Comrade posted:You would have kept the heartlands with this tactic but lost the youth vote. In the end Labour would have still lost. We kept the youth vote in 2017, when Labour backed a soft Brexit. That could have happened again - it could at least have stanched the bleeding. I voted Remain, but I could still recognise that re-running the referendum was going to be a massively unpopular policy among demographics who weren't Lib Dem-style bureaucratic centrists. The media didn't harp on this because most of them are in exactly that demo, which I think is why a lot of people didn't realise what a problem it was.
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Dec 13, 2019 10:39
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I went out with my boots on, at least, and not on my loving knees Despite everything I'm glad I did what I did. I fought for this one
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Dec 13, 2019 10:40
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qhat posted:Lib Dems lost 10 seats. I.e 50% of their seats. Most of those were Tory defectors who switched party, comparisons are made to the previous election results.
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Dec 13, 2019 10:40
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Don’t think the northern miners have any great love for aristocrats beyond the Queen. I think they’re just convinced that Brexit is the fountain of youth that will make everything go back to the way it was when they were young if only they believe in it hard enough.
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Dec 13, 2019 10:40
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qhat posted:Lib Dems lost 10 seats. i.e 50% of their seats. They're only down one "actually elected as a libdem" seat, half their MPs were defectors from other parties
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Dec 13, 2019 10:40
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xtothez posted:Most of those were Tory defectors who switched party, comparisons are made to the previous election results. They lost ten seats
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Dec 13, 2019 10:41
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Yeah, the ‘working class’ as a concept no longer has meaning, particularly in the U.K. and US. I mean, they’re an entire apolitical (or at least see themselves as such) that just like being told what to do by powerful interests, because then they don’t have to think about things for themselves. All the vox pops this morning have people repeating the same media lines of ‘fairy tales’, ‘socialism’, ‘get Brexit done’ and talking about immigrants. They’re a lunpenproletariat, except one that doesn’t seem susceptible to arguments from the left, which they hate. If they would vote for Labour again, it would only be one that promises more for them, less for foreigners, and leaves everything else pretty much alone and doesn’t ‘politicise’ anything. The BNP with some very light redistribution basically.
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Dec 13, 2019 10:41
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Anyone who voted against preferential voting should be first against the wall. Then second pregerenced against the wall will be distributed based on preferences.
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Dec 13, 2019 10:42
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Watching the people get lairy It's not very pretty I tell thee Walking through town is quite scary It's not very sensible either A friend of a friend he got beaten He looked the wrong way at a policeman Would never of happened to Smeaton An old leodensian I predict a riot I predict a riot I predict a riot I predict a riot I tried to get to my taxi The man in a tracksuit attacks me He said that he saw it before me And wants to get things a bit gory Girls scrabble round with no clothes on To borrow a pound for a condom If it wasn't for chip fat they'd be frozen they're not very sensible I predict a riot I predict a riot I predict a riot I predict a riot And if there's anybody left in here That doesn't want to be out there Watching the people get lairy It's not very pretty I tell thee Walking through town is quite scary It's not very sensible I predict a riot I predict a riot I predict a riot I predict a riot And if there's anybody left in here That doesn't want to be out there I predict a riot I predict a riot I predict a riot I predict a riot
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Dec 13, 2019 10:48
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quote:I met a traveller from an antique land,
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Dec 13, 2019 10:48
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The real battle is never really at the ballot box, it takes place in society at large over many years. That change is starting to happen, and progress has been made in lots of areas over the last couple of decades. Lots of our current global issues are a backlash against progress coming from people who feel they are losing the long battle. It's fear and insecurity that is driving much of this. This election was never winnable because of brexit. It's not worth losing heart over, especially the people who said they felt suicidal. The fight goes on and always will.
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Dec 13, 2019 10:49
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peanut- posted:The process of studiously ignoring what actually happened last night is well underway among the melts. I don’t think anyone has said that yet tho? And so far I don’t think anyone has an answer that isn’t either “be more racist” or “pretend to be more racist”, and it shames me to say the second one of those is p much where I come down.
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Dec 13, 2019 10:50
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Pesmerga posted:Yeah, the ‘working class’ as a concept no longer has meaning, particularly in the U.K. and US. I mean, they’re an entire apolitical (or at least see themselves as such) that just like being told what to do by powerful interests, because then they don’t have to think about things for themselves. All the vox pops this morning have people repeating the same media lines of ‘fairy tales’, ‘socialism’, ‘get Brexit done’ and talking about immigrants. They’re a lunpenproletariat, except one that doesn’t seem susceptible to arguments from the left, which they hate. If they would vote for Labour again, it would only be one that promises more for them, less for foreigners, and leaves everything else pretty much alone and doesn’t ‘politicise’ anything. The BNP with some very light redistribution basically. I disagree. If you don't own much realistically and you actually have to work for your money, you're working class. As opposed to, say, investing everything in treasury bonds and claiming your tax incentivized 500k per year on dividends and being a complete scab on society. The idea that working class no longer exists is a bourgeoisie myth to pretend that you don't actually need to oppose policies that incentivize the rich, but never yourself. qhat fucked around with this message at 10:54 on Dec 13, 2019 |
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Dec 13, 2019 10:52
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The absolute state of Wales
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Dec 13, 2019 10:54
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Algol Star posted:The real battle is never really at the ballot box, it takes place in society at large over many years. That change is starting to happen, and progress has been made in lots of areas over the last couple of decades. Lots of our current global issues are a backlash against progress coming from people who feel they are losing the long battle. It's fear and insecurity that is driving much of this. This election was never winnable because of brexit. It's not worth losing heart over, especially the people who said they felt suicidal. The fight goes on and always will. Thank you. And anyone else in this thread who is posting similar stuff. It helps tremendously and does more good than you can realise.
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Dec 13, 2019 10:54
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Flipswitch posted:The absolute state of the UK
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Dec 13, 2019 10:54
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qhat posted:I disagree. If you don't own much realistically and you actually have to work for your money, you're working class. As opposed to, say, investing everything in treasury bonds and claiming your tax incentivized 500k per year on dividends and being a complete scab on society. The idea that working class no longer exists is a bourgeoisie myth to pretend that you don't actually need to oppose policies that incentivize the rich, but never yourself. But the central aspect of class consciousness is gone. This isn’t to say that low socio-economic status doesn’t exist, but that the idea of ‘working class’ as a political movement that has certain interests that align against capital doesn’t.
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Dec 13, 2019 10:58
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Sadly such things are possible in a country where the organs of the press can call one leader of the Labour Party a shifty Jewish type and then tar his immediate successor an antisemite. I was poll clerking last night and I feel sorry for all the young people who came in for what was clearly their first vote, and for this to be the result.
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Dec 13, 2019 10:59
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gently caress you england. loving gently caress you. Sincerely, Scotland.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:00
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bitterandtwisted posted:gently caress you england. loving gently caress you. Please leave ASAP so I can move there
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Dec 13, 2019 11:01
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Barry Foster posted:My partner is very settled in her job and I don't know how to say to her that I'm not sure I can bear to stay in this country Fwiw I have been way happier since I left the UK. Somewhat simpler, slower pace of life with lots of time out in the countryside, and I am not constantly steeped in the UK political turmoil. Despite working for a US corporation I also work less hard. Recommended.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:01
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qhat posted:The LibDems hosed up in 2010. We could have AV by now at the very least. Instead we have brexit. Brown told them to get hosed. If he offered AV with no conditions then it was a done deal. Lab probably has to make the first move, every time, and that sucks.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:02
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I also obviously feel sorry for the tens of thousands of people that are going to die because of this outcome.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:02
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Looking forward to the governments ‘unspecified’ plans regarding free speech on campus, which presumably means racial science and eugenics can come back and anyone advocating anything left of Dominic Raab can be labelled subversive and extremist.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:04
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I think the reasons behind this result are fairly clear. The regressive faction deferred to a joint leader. The progressive faction was split. In FPTP this is death. Despite very promising EU election results, the Brexit Party decided to try and give maximal advantage to the Conservatives- completely demolishing their own vote share, and potentially their long term prospects as a political party. The Tories were able to almost completely ignore any challenge from this flank, and focus all resources on Labour. Leave voters were in no doubt of the best place to vote. Going into the election season, the Brexit part were on ~13% of the vote. They left it on 3%. Because of very promising EU election results, the Lib-Dems decided that they were going to try and leapfrog Labour as the main party of Anti-Tory voters, and ran for maximal party political advantage. Both Labour and the Lib-Dems had to spend massive political resources and energy locked in a death struggle to try and make clear in each seat which one was the best anti-Tory vote. This led to remain voters and anti-tory voters being scattered, and tactical voting was as ineffective as ever. Going into the election season the Lib Dems were on ~19% of the vote. They left it on 12%. If you flipped the response of the Lib-Dem leadership and Brexit party leadership, we'd be sitting in a world with a Labour majority.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:04
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when was "working class" ever really a useful political concept, though? 1970s? there's a distinct difference of interests between the working-class self-employed builder, working-class contract cleaner, working-class admin functionary the whole concept of a revolutionary / class-conscious "working class" was predicated on people being brought together and visibly exploited through commodity production, which would lead to formation of class consciousness, and this hasn't happened in the West; if you follow that line of thinking the commodity production is mostly gone and we're looking at a tension of interests between the modern proletariat in the Global South / China and the Western "working class", which might explain some of the racism
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Dec 13, 2019 11:04
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Pesmerga posted:But the central aspect of class consciousness is gone. This isn’t to say that low socio-economic status doesn’t exist, but that the idea of ‘working class’ as a political movement that has certain interests that align against capital doesn’t. Yeah I get that, it's just that the bourgeoisie have very successfully managed to convince people that actually there are other working class people that are easier pickings than themselves. It's disgraceful but also pretty understandable.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:05
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grotesque parody of a country. spiteful pasty cunts who'll burn every good thing this hell nation ever did to the ground for their precious Brexit
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Dec 13, 2019 11:05
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Well, I wasn't expecting quite such a big defeat. I'm gutted for Corbyn, I really hoped he'd get to be PM and prove that he was for real. I'm in dread for our most vulnerable, for our NHS, for all the damage they can do with that free rein they've been given. 5 years is a long time with such a majority and such clear disregard for truth, accountability and compassion. People will eventually find out that Brexit won't bring their hair back, won't make the sun shine red and white and won't give them any modicum of "control". They will not get a piece of the spoils. By then it'll be too late of course, and they'll have dragged the rest of us along to the bottom with them. I hope it doesn't break the left. I like the options we have for leadership and really don't want to see the party shift back to blairites. We need real change and the only consolation for the 5 years of plundering that is to come will be that the tories will only have themselves to blame when everything inevitably gets worse and the election swings to us. Although I've already been burned once underestimating the stupidity/brainwashed nature of the electorate. gently caress me. I guess it's our turn to lose our minds and elect fascists. It can't last. Stay strong you guys
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Dec 13, 2019 11:06
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Ultimately Blair, Campbell et al are to blame for renegading on the PR part of their 1997 manifesto.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:06
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