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They won't of course https://twitter.com/dsquareddigest/status/1205262049430966272?s=19
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Dec 13, 2019 11:33
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Orange Devil posted:I have 2 takeaways that I can't get away from: As an addendum to 2: I've worked in warehousing and distribution in the Netherlands for the past 5 years. That means the majority of my colleagues is eastern European, first almost entirely Polish, now more and more Romanian. A lot of those colleagues are absolutely great people and I've become friends with a whole bunch of them. At the same time, unionization has been declining the more old Dutch colleagues are retiring and being replaced with more eastern Europeans. I see absolutely atrocious things happening to some of the most vulnerable temp workers from those places simply because they don't know their rights, don't speak the language, are young and stuck on temp contracts and usually have had what little support network they might have had back where they come from broken up by their migration(s) (so many have worked in multiple countries and sometimes easily in over a dozen vastly different jobs). How the gently caress do you even begin to organize a crowd like that? The sad fact is that it'd be infinitely easier to push back on some of the poo poo the company has been pushing if the vast majority of my colleagues were Dutch instead. And it is absolutely true that the reason warehouse workers' wages have been stagnant for over a decade now is because there's always been another new desolate eastern European place turbofucked by capitalism they can bus in desperate people from to replace the ones who are finally too fed up with it (or worse).
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Dec 13, 2019 11:34
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Labour cannot go right, it just needs to cede the Center right to the Lib Dems and pact up
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Dec 13, 2019 11:34
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If Labour did go back to the centre I wouldn't have a political home any more and I only just loving got one like 4 years ago.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:35
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But what kind of left? Is it internationalist and open, or is it nationalist and closed? That’s the schism in the left, and Labour is going to lose one of those groups.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:36
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oxford_town posted:he doesn't have a seat, so, probably no Sorry, got confused about which seat he was sitting in. Thought he was one of the last lib dems standing. Wouldn't have surprised me if that was game game plan though.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:38
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I'm taking some comfort in that we've finally got rid of Chris Leslie and that Nottingham East has gone back to Labour. Even better that we now have a decent (and I believe the youngest) MP in Nadia Whittome.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:39
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Sakurazuka posted:Can't cope with today, 6 1/2 hours until I can drink myself into a stupor Luckily for me it's out Office Christmas party today so drinking starts at 12.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:39
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Pesmerga posted:But what kind of left? Is it internationalist and open, or is it nationalist and closed? That’s the schism in the left, and Labour is going to lose one of those groups. Well it just lost the second one so... At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Labour lurched towards the centre and we saw a new left wing Momentum-inspired party splinter off and get a lot of support on the left before 2024. Further splitting the non-Tory vote forever.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:39
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stev posted:Well it just lost the second one so... My gut instinct is the latter group aren’t winnable anyway, as they’ll always go for the most hardline option. But there aren’t enough in the first group either. The post-war period is basically a statistical blip that I’m not sure can be recreated.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:41
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp1aP_CEq44 There'll be war in our cities There'll be riots at the mall There'll be blood on our doorsteps And panics at the ball All our cities gonna burn All our bridges gonna snap All our pennies gonna rot Lightning roll across our tracks All our children gonna die All our children gonna die All our children gonna die All our children gonna die Then the west will rise again Yeah the west will rise again The west will rise again The west will rise again So goodnight vain children Tonight is yours, the lights are yours If you'd just ask for more, then poverty and war
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Dec 13, 2019 11:41
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Pesmerga posted:But what kind of left? Is it internationalist and open, or is it nationalist and closed? That’s the schism in the left, and Labour is going to lose one of those groups. It can’t be a party of both. So it needs to be nationalist and closed and strong, let the Lib Dems be the nice (weak) guys, and actually get into power.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:43
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oxford_town posted:here's a positive slant this is where i am, as much as i desperately wanted to see corbyn no.10 by any means the coalition would have been highly unstable and pre-occupied with brexit and scottish indy. we would have been spent trying to birth the tories last terrible idea. the tories may have a majority but they have to deliver and own brexit and the slow dissolution of the union. the people in ex-labour seats who lent their vote to boris want something in return and it's sure as gently caress not lower taxes for banks. thatcher won in a similarly devastating fashion in 1987 and was removed just over two years later, lets have it.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:43
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRULtXn6W0s It’s hard, we got our heads down and our hackles up Our backs against the wall, I can feel your heart racing None of this was written in stone The current’s fast but the river moves slow And I can feel things changing Even when I’m weak and I’m breaking I stand weeping at the train station ‘Cause I can see your faces I love people’s faces Whatever happens I'm glad to be with you all
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Dec 13, 2019 11:44
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Labours controlled by the membership now, we only go back to the Center if we want it.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:45
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Beefeater1980 posted:It can’t be a party of both. So it needs to be nationalist and closed and strong, let the Lib Dems be the nice (weak) guys, and actually get into power. No place for me, my wife or my foreign really daughter in that vision though.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:46
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also if you think this is bad spare a thought for the all the socialists who woke up in 1931 to con 210->470 lab 235->54 at the absolute depth of the great depression. they stuck it out and we got the nhs 15 years later.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:47
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Silver linings A third of the country believed us. Perhaps that is our floor now. We have an even more engaged youth vote than we did before, and they are broadly on our side. A bunch of non-voters voted for us. They will probably vote again if we can inspire them again. The Liberal Democrats have destroyed themselves. Aside from their true believers, they are widely seen now as absolutely untrustworthy charlatans, and a significant chunk of the population is going to blame them for some constituency results. Ex-Tory Sam Gyimah betrayed the residents of Grenfel extremely blatantly. Jo Swinson lied obviously and repeatedly. I think the Lib Dems might be even more finished than they were after 2010. Obvious media bias has come to the fore. The BBC's credibility is gone. We no longer look like conspiracy theorists to much of the population. I think the country is now divided into "The media is biased" and "The media is biased but is on our side so I'm okay with that". The terms of debate have irrevocably changed. The Brexit Party turned out to be a betrayal of their voters. Standing down in every Tory seat did not go down well. It seems to have worked, but I don't think it's a trick that can be played twice. Some of the Right's voting base will be massively disillusioned by this, hating both BXP and CON. Also, they are old. They won't last forever. On the other hand, there are constant potential new converts for us. Our policies are out there. Many of them were very popular. I suspect they would've been more popular if not for cynicism and Brexit. We've given the Overton window a good kicking, and this is our new baseline. We may be able to go further in some regards in future. Take this all together, and over time more people may realise that we are the only option they can trust. One piece of cloud: we have lost Scotland, and I don't think we're getting it back until we are in government and can prove that we are worth voting for. I expect the next Labour government will need to work with the SNP.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:49
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Rustybear posted:also if you think this is bad spare a thought for the all the socialists who woke up in 1931 to con 210->470 lab 235->54 at the absolute depth of the great depression. they stuck it out and we got the nhs 15 years later. Yeah, that 15 year period isn’t one I really want to think about.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:49
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 toxx complete.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:50
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Fans posted:Labours controlled by the membership now, we only go back to the Center if we want it. Yeah starmer might have been popular before but I can't see the membership going for someone who was critical to backing a second referendum
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Dec 13, 2019 11:50
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he has to have cooked himself i think, RLB or Rayner's to loose really.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:52
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Pesmerga posted:Yeah, that 15 year period isn’t one I really want to think about. no i get that, but if they could live through all that and still believe a better world is possible with enough energy to make it happen we can too.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:53
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i know its little consolation but thread - welcome to Australia 19/05/19 "poo poo's hosed" genuinely feel sorry for you guys  [edit] Scotland, you know what you need to do. ROFLBOT fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Dec 13, 2019 |
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Dec 13, 2019 11:54
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Jose posted:Yeah starmer might have been popular before but I can't see the membership going for someone who was critical to backing a second referendum i think labour now needs to divorce itself from brexit; the traditional vote was torn apart by trying to placate both remain and leave (and it was an impossible position - committing to either side would also have doomed the vote share). starmer and thornberry were, I suspect, kept largely out of the spotlight due to being visibly pro-remain characters. they, particularly starmer, might stand a chance in a future election (a lot of the 'traditional labour voters' who 'couldn't vote for corbyn' described starmer as a viable alternative), but only I think if brexit is 'done' and politics can move on to talking about other issues...
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Dec 13, 2019 11:54
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Rustybear posted:also if you think this is bad spare a thought for the all the socialists who woke up in 1931 to con 210->470 lab 235->54 at the absolute depth of the great depression. they stuck it out and we got the nhs 15 years later. It also took six years of total war that killed millions and devastated half the world before a plurality of people in the west went "huh maybe cooperation and solidarity are good and rabid nationalism is bad".
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Dec 13, 2019 11:55
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Beefeater1980 posted:It can’t be a party of both. So it needs to be nationalist and closed and strong, let the Lib Dems be the nice (weak) guys, and actually get into power. And then you have elected a nationalist party. What does the colour of it matter?
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Dec 13, 2019 11:56
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i also agree with this take https://twitter.com/shaunjlawson/status/1205441387002499072?s=20
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Dec 13, 2019 11:57
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rbx4kAaDOzkronya posted:migration is passé, look at the voter priority polling - brexit is no longer comoving reliably with migration. Crime and economy concerns have pushed migration down
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Dec 13, 2019 11:57
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Rustybear posted:no i get that, but if they could live through all that and still believe a better world is possible with enough energy to make it happen we can too. a lot of them could not live through that, is the point
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Dec 13, 2019 11:57
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Rustybear posted:this is where i am, as much as i desperately wanted to see corbyn no.10 by any means the coalition would have been highly unstable and pre-occupied with brexit and scottish indy. we would have been spent trying to birth the tories last terrible idea. yes and I think the tory party know that now - the manifesto promised anti-austerity measures (certainly nothing like labour, but still) and part of the appeal in those ex-labour, working class seats is that neither the EU nor New Labour is felt to have done anything for them when the times were good; the tories oddly have positioned themselves as the force for change for the better. i suspect johnson will probably drift towards the centre-right in this government
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Dec 13, 2019 11:58
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Guildencrantz posted:It also took six years of total war that killed millions and devastated half the world before a plurality of people in the west went "huh maybe cooperation and solidarity are good and rabid nationalism is bad". I've been saying for the past decade or so that I feel like we're heading towards another world war, within the next 15-20 years or so.
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Dec 13, 2019 11:58
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Beefeater1980 posted:Well there your problem is that neoliberalism mass-enriched the global proletariat at the expense of the privileged western labour aristocracy. a more nationalist variety of either, on the other hand, would absolutely continue this extractive relationship and additionally Build The Wall (or local equivalent), and leave them to die once climate poo poo kicks off. neoliberalism will probably switch over to / continue this route; it has technically made advances in some places but they won't continue because the GS is going to be hit first and hardest, and it'll be a choice between helping the foreigns and preserving legitimacy at home slightly more optimistic about China's chances just because they have the central control ability and have built up the wealth to maybe achieve something everything is terrible ed: although we shouldn't stop fighting for it
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Dec 13, 2019 11:58
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got a nice pounding headache to go along with my tory government this morning
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Dec 13, 2019 11:59
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zhar posted:got a nice pounding headache to go along with my tory government this morning Keep drinking, it helps
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Dec 13, 2019 12:00
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cool https://twitter.com/LordJohnMann/status/1205426629700464640?s=20
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Dec 13, 2019 12:01
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since we're sharing music and poems here an extremely fitting mood right now https://youtu.be/3KgB-sI2H-c The bloody scene is bloody sad The bloody news is bloody bad The bloody weed is bloody turf The bloody speed is bloody surf The bloody folks are bloody daft Don't make me bloody laugh It bloody hurts to look around Everywhere in chicken town The bloody train is bloody late You bloody wait you bloody wait You're bloody lost and bloody found Stuck in loving chicken town The bloody view is bloody vile For bloody miles and bloody miles The bloody babies bloody cry The bloody flowers bloody die The bloody food is bloody muck The bloody drains are bloody hosed The colour scheme is bloody brown Everywhere in chicken town
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Dec 13, 2019 12:02
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I feel like poo poo this morning and I didn't touch the drink and got plenty of sleep. Clearly Boris is to blame.
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Dec 13, 2019 12:03
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turns out hope, after all, was a lie
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Dec 13, 2019 12:03
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Rustybear posted:also if you think this is bad spare a thought for the all the socialists who woke up in 1931 to con 210->470 lab 235->54 at the absolute depth of the great depression. they stuck it out and we got the nhs 15 years later.
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Dec 13, 2019 12:05
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