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tentish klown posted:And more people will die BECAUSE of the hard left taking over the labour party. If you can't see that pretty much anyone would have been better than Corbyn, because he's loving toxic, then that's on you. EDIT: there are at least 285 different smears that can be weaponised against any Labour leader by the press, regardless of what ideology and policies that leader follows. Regardless of their politics they will be transformed into a Jew-hating Marxist extremist, and dipshit centrists everywhere will shriek about electability. an_mutt fucked around with this message at 13:46 on Dec 13, 2019 |
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Dec 13, 2019 13:42
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tentish klown posted:And more people will die BECAUSE of the hard left taking over the labour party. If you can't see that pretty much anyone would have been better than Corbyn, because he's loving toxic, then that's on you. Yes, famously the press were fair and even on Ed Milliband's centrist campaign and weren't a bunch of shrieking howler monkeys screaming "RED ED! RED ED!" over and over. Centrism will totally win next time. There is one thing labour can do that is worse than losing, and that is losing and being a lovely opposition that does nothing to counter the tory narrative that austerity is good and poverty unavoidable
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Dec 13, 2019 13:42
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Pollyanna posted:No way lol. People will rationalize it away because that’s what they do. NHS will have been Bad All Along. Could you not mate
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Dec 13, 2019 13:43
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You've got similar questions coming up about social care for the elderly, with the NHS. The issue is only going to get worse here on in because of demographic changes. Both are going to require answers that the Tories will not want give (the answer is taxation). I think it's likely to become their Brexit equivalant, as their answers to it will either not be a vote winner, or deeply annnoy their base.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:44
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https://twitter.com/Natalan/status/1205438753768116225?s=19
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Dec 13, 2019 13:45
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Guildencrantz posted:Eh, disagree. At least in most of Europe there is still a working-class identity and a sense of shared interest and political alignment. The thing is, it's not economic but cultural. The common enemy is no longer capital, which is so distant and pervasive it has become basically transparent, but rather the educated professional class and its affectations. The self-perception has shifted from emphasizing "we're the people who actually make things, unlike the rich parasites" to "we're the ordinary decent folks with common sense, unlike the moralizing ivory-tower academics". Don't forget the urban/rural divide, which as a result of globalization has deepened considerably. In my experience, there are rural people with leftist ideals and they don't feel the modern left represents them. It's travel, city, urban that are the big identifiers for leftism (according to them). What appeal does that hold to a person who lives in a small village or town and who doesn't share or want that? Whose worries are, what future does my tow or village have? Will my children have a future here? Why must everything shut down and close? Will there be jobs and a life here in the future? I've had this conversation with people, they would describe themselves as leftist, but feel the parties pushing leftist policies are all centered around the cities and are actively hostile towards them. We have PR so they usually vote some center party or our new labour-ish party (SDP), we have a left wing party but they feel they cannot vote for them, it's a party for Helsinki and not them. That's a gulf that needs to be overcome. But I am skeptical it will.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:45
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Just a reminder to you poor lost souls. If you elective system wasn't outdated sixty years ago, Boris Johnson wouldn't be PM right now and Lab-Libdem would be in coalition negotiations. It's your own drat fault, Labour could have fixed this mess decades ago.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:45
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Watching them slide from one truth to another is kind of hypnotic. Javid on Sky News saying that we now definitely weren't going out with no deal despite right up until the election them screaming constantly that it would be impossible to negotiate a deal without being able to threaten no deal. And of course not being even slightly challenged on it.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:46
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Just over 100 years ago the UK had a winter election on 14 December 1918. Labour won only 57 seats (A good result for them at the time) and the governing party of the Conservatives with 382 seats and their coalition partners the Liberals with 127 seats took power. This was at a time when a lot of the protections, rights and safety nets we have today didn't exist. This result is a loving travesty but things have been worse before and our great grand parents kept up the struggle. I've spent last night and this morning being depressed and wallowing in our lack of success in the election but it's a fresh day, we can't stop fighting and it's time to call some Tories lying pieces of poo poo with the blood of millions of millions on their hands. Things are going to get worse over the next 5 years and I think perhaps the most key thing will be staying engaged, staying active and being publicly vocal about who is responsible for the suffering the Tory government is going to cause. Join your CLP and any other local pressure/charity/activist groups that support causes you care about. In 2024 no matter what the papers say, we want there to be no doubt in the public consciousness about where the blame lies and who is going to be offering real change.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:46
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Android Blues posted:Yeah. Immigrants are often also more susceptible to anti-union intimidation and pressure from bosses because they have fewer resources and less stability than domestic workers, who will (usually) have family and assets to fall back on if their job is threatened. These are solvable problems, if we cultivate a labour movement that doesn't pander to xenophobia and isn't endemically reluctant to deal foreigners in on union business. That's really not the whole story though. I mean, it is with permanent immigrants, but a huge proportion of Eastern European workers don't plan to settle. Polish people are notoriously hard to unionize not just because of economic factors, but because they come from a country where union membership is miniscule and largely confined to the public sector, and the work culture is very individualistic. (source: I'm Polish) Plus, those who want to come back tend to have a very bootstraps attitude to the whole thing, where if you keep your head down and work hard you can return significantly better-off and climb the social ladder back home a bit, so they think it's worth it to suffer through some lovely conditions.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:46
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Brexit split Labour more than Conservatives seems like the simplest read in all this, it only took killing the careers of 2 Tory PMs for it to pan out. I don't know what master genius plan gets Labour out of that bind in 2019?
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Dec 13, 2019 13:46
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tentish klown posted:This is why you will carry on losing. This stupid idealistic purity test. If you tell everyone to gently caress off and vote Tory, well, they just loving did. Hi I'm Centrism, rules-lawyering the first word in the statement "everyone in society should have rights and dignity" while I A/B how it plays in the marginals "Purity testing" my hole, it's called starting from and sticking to principles that ought in any decent society to be inviolable.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:48
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e: you know what nevermind I don't have the time or the energy to try and convince wreckers who conceive of the working class solely as Straight Men Who Love Racism And Hate Learning why they're wrong bye
bionic vapour boy fucked around with this message at 13:51 on Dec 13, 2019 |
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Dec 13, 2019 13:48
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Gary Younge is correct: the Labour Centrists now have the event that they've been hoping for since 2015 and, whoops, they're entirely unprepared for it, even though they've had 4 loving years to organise, develop an alternative direction and work out how to sell it to the membership. I'm not too worried about the leadership being recaptured by the Labour right, because they're just too loving incompetent and unlikeable to do so.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:49
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sean10mm posted:Brexit split Labour more than Conservatives seems like the simplest read in all this, it only took killing the careers of 2 Tory PMs for it to pan out. Well it could have stayed a soft-brexit party like in 2017. Might not have worked, but possibly.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:49
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Pistol_Pete posted:I'm not too worried about the leadership being recaptured by the Labour right, because they're just too loving incompetent and unlikeable to do so. They'd have to be let back in first anyway
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Dec 13, 2019 13:50
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bionic vapour boy posted:Honestly gently caress off with the poo poo claiming socialism is ivory tower academic stuff. Higher education was never on the cards for me and I've only ever worked in retail & warehouses. I was raised by tories, too! I learned that they were wrong because I actually loving listened when people got angry with me when I regurgitated my parents talking points, and when I saw the horrorshow that tory policy actually engendered. This is this correct position
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Dec 13, 2019 13:50
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sean10mm posted:Brexit split Labour more than Conservatives seems like the simplest read in all this, it only took killing the careers of 2 Tory PMs for it to pan out. Wait for brexit and when things don’t get better, hope for a leftish resurgence (rather than a right wing coup)
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Dec 13, 2019 13:50
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Like I said, British nationalism is poison. Every working class person who voted Tory voted for them because they identified with their right-wing nationalism, like everyone who voted for Trump. It doesn't matter that Boris was and is the personification of the elite - he was more British than Corbyn in the minds of many.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:51
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Say the tories gut/privatise the nhs, what's to stop a future labour government 20 years from now reforming it?
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Dec 13, 2019 13:51
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Rakosi posted:You are not going to die. I honestly believe the NHS will be the last and final breaking point for the UK electorate. Encroachment on that will end up with violent protests, and everyone knows it. There is no way that the people who voted Tory this election voted to destroy the NHS. The demographics don't add up. Boris has unwittingly inherited an NHS loving population and he'll have to shift his position to accommodate it. I wish I had this confidence, but scores of people who voted Tory but are worried about the NHS aren't worried that the NHS is being underfunded. They blame NHS troubles on two things - people who aren't "sick enough" using it (e.g. there is enough funding, but too many people with sprained wrists in my a&e!), and the money the NHS does have being wasted (on things like "managers salaries.") The Tories, with a majority, can do a lot of poo poo to the NHS and a lot of people will eat it up. It's vital that there is a coherent, comprehensive message that is continually being relayed that exposes what the Tories are doing to the NHS, from today until the next election.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:51
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Corbynism is done, but Corbynism was a kind and conciliatory approach that attempted to bridge gaps, literally 'kinder, gentler politics'. The time for that is done. What we need now is a massive rejection of the media, just tell them to gently caress off and eat poo poo on live TV when they try getting vox pops, and focus hard on pushing full leftist politics at ground level. We tried working with the system and it got us nothing, they twisted everything we did and said even in person. loving Andrew Marr straight up asked McDonnell why Labour had made itself a home for racists just days before the election. Labour politicians are the public voice, but they need to be less Corbyn and more Emily 'drunken aunt' Thornbury. This isn't so much a loss as a reality check on how far Corbyn could get the left in the current climate, and it has reached its limit, and that's fine. Readjust, and keep going.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:52
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Weasling Weasel posted:You've got similar questions coming up about social care for the elderly, with the NHS. The issue is only going to get worse here on in because of demographic changes. Both are going to require answers that the Tories will not want give (the answer is taxation). I think it's likely to become their Brexit equivalant, as their answers to it will either not be a vote winner, or deeply annnoy their base. Hahaha silver lining of all this is going to be when the olds are left to poo poo themselves and die hungry and they can beg for help and I can just look them dead in the eye and say 'no'
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Dec 13, 2019 13:52
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His Divine Shadow posted:Gone over the last couple of years in my head and I cant help but feel Corbyn was right from the start but wasn't able to pursue the path he wanted. I remember when he whipped for article 50, and everyone complained. Yeah I feel the same way after some thinking: 1) Labour makes unexpected gains in 2017 but was still running on an "honour the referendum result" platform back then 2) Hung parliament and May's poo poo negotiating ability leads to stalling of the Brexit process, emboldening Remain voices 3) Remain factions in Labour effectively force the leadership into a muddled policy of "negotiate different deal then possibly campaign against it in a 2nd ref" 4) Public gets increasingly fed up with the log jam of bickering MPs that know what they don't want but can't articulate or vote for a positive position 5) With the help of a complicit, even sycophantic, media, Boris (a man who blocked May's deal twice) portrays himself as the man to unblock everything I suppose tiny amount of good news is that the above events are pretty unique and unlikely to be repeated next time. Brexit is now on Boris, a former Remainer who only became a Leave supporter to further his leadership ambitions. Meanwhile, gammons I've spoken to are increasingly receptive to progressive policies if only you can get past the lens of Brexit. The trick is to hang onto those policies and fight off the inevitable attacks from the Blairite melts who'll use this opportunity to pull Labour to the right.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:53
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:Corbynism is done, but Corbynism was a kind and conciliatory approach that attempted to bridge gaps, literally 'kinder, gentler politics'. The time for that is done. What we need now is a massive rejection of the media, just tell them to gently caress off and eat poo poo on live TV when they try getting vox pops, and focus hard on pushing full leftist politics at ground level. I'm all aboard the McDonnell murder train E: we absolutely need someone like him to take over. We cannot allow control to go back to the right of the party.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:53
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His Divine Shadow posted:
Maybe, just maybe, British voters are idiots and don’t deserve the sham of a democracy they have Most UK boomers don’t give a poo poo if everything gets dismantled they’re going to collect what’s left of the pensions before croaking
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Dec 13, 2019 13:56
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Truniht posted:Maybe, just maybe, British voters are idiots and don’t deserve the sham of a democracy they have I get that you are upset, but this isn't actually gonna get you what you or I want.
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Dec 13, 2019 13:57
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They are not wrong though
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Dec 13, 2019 13:59
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ThomasPaine posted:I'm all aboard the McDonnell murder train they have no way to get control of the party unless the membership takes total leave of its senses
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Dec 13, 2019 13:59
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https://twitter.com/joejglenton/status/1205460742272622592
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Dec 13, 2019 14:02
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So when is the next leader going to be chosen? I assume Labour will try to move fast on this?
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Dec 13, 2019 14:02
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https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1205404813531533312?s=19 Welp.
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Dec 13, 2019 14:04
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I said last night I was feeling zen and this afternoon I'm still... relaxed. Obviously disappointed, but as many have said this is just a stumble. On the plus side the Tories have to completely own brexit now.
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Dec 13, 2019 14:05
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Tesseraction posted:I said last night I was feeling zen and this afternoon I'm still... relaxed. Obviously disappointed, but as many have said this is just a stumble. "Labour didn't do enough to oppose Brexit" is the new and will always be "Labour caused the financial crisis"
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Dec 13, 2019 14:06
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Utter nonsense, party rules means he can’t step down right away because there is no deputy leader.
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Dec 13, 2019 14:06
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RottenK posted:So when is the next leader going to be chosen? I assume Labour will try to move fast on this? I assume nothing's going to happen until Parliament reopens simply because the party's going to be so busy dealing with immediate issues. Then (IIRC) it's two weeks for nominations, then two months of hustings, then two weeks for the vote itself.
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Dec 13, 2019 14:06
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Joined Sinn Fein this morning. Would have been hard to imagine myself doing that a year ago.
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Dec 13, 2019 14:07
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The inevitable emotions and thread infighting following a devastating night. We now have a majority government led by a xenophobe, a press that slobbers over his bacon flavoured dick without holding them to account, and an opposition that will be on its knees for a while. Have a break, get drunk, scream loudly at the moon. Don't let your anger subside, use it and challenge every single moron. Or hold you foreign work visa close and look at flights like Ratty, time to bail
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Dec 13, 2019 14:07
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Kinda hard to chicken coup him again when he said he'll stand down?
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Dec 13, 2019 14:09
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Lol, like I just said, the Labour centrists are so loving useless.
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Dec 13, 2019 14:09
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