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I think arguing that Jeremy Corbyns popularity wasnt a big issue is wrong at this point. Our refrain was always "yes, but he is all we have and hopefully the policies will carry labour through" not that he was actually secretly very popular. He obviously wasn't and the policies didn't So now time to adjust not to dig our heels in. Who is next?
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Dec 13, 2019 18:56
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I think arguing about jeremy corbyn's popularity as a personal problem, however, is to miss the majority of the context.
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Dec 13, 2019 18:58
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Don’t know if it’s been posted yet - anyone see the A&E figures for November? No trust in the country meeting their 4 hour target for the first time ever. Would have preferred those figures to be released before the election personally. NHS feels pretty horrific to work in atm, so many people coming to harm from factors I can’t control. Don’t know if people really appreciate how bad it is?
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Dec 13, 2019 18:59
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My mother was on the floor for about six hours waiting for an ambulance and she still voted tory.
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Dec 13, 2019 19:00
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Early start this morning so a bit behind everything but Chuka Umunna losing his seat is hilarious.
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Dec 13, 2019 19:00
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Pesmerga posted:My wife’s as told to gently caress off home by a student what’s even the point The student's a oval office and your wife is doing one of the best jobs for society? Today is loving poo poo, aye. We took a bloody nose. But really, nothing has really changed for me over yesterday. I still have a house, food in the cupboard and can pay my rent. And have a beer. It's okay to feel like poo poo because it matters, and still does. Do have something to eat though. Be with your partner, watch something comfortable, turn off for a bit. This country has gone through worse, at least we have been warned and can do something about it.
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Dec 13, 2019 19:00
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OwlFancier posted:I think arguing about jeremy corbyn's popularity as a personal problem, however, is to miss the majority of the context. Yeah, holy poo poo this. *years of negative reporting about Corbyn as a terrorist sympathizer, anti-semite, dangerious marxist etc etc* Joe public: "hmmm I don't like him, but i'm not sure why." Shocking, almost as if it's manufactured.
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Dec 13, 2019 19:03
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goddamnedtwisto posted:We weren't talking about a pact, we were talking about one Queen's Speech, one piece of legislation, and one dissolution. They would have had the ability to stop Corbyn if he'd tried to sneak any Marxisms into the country - they refused because the one thing they really didn't want was to grant even the slightest bit of credibility to Corbyn. the caretaker govt idea was about a month before the remain pact coalesced in late October, and that chunk of increasingly ancient history has a straightforward answer too: if it was really one Queen's speech, one piece of legislation, and one dissolution, the desperation of Labour to make sure Corbyn was the premier specifically made no sense. These commitments have no constitutional enforcement save a gentleman's promise, and the government would have control over the Commons agenda; it was obviously intended to be a bluff akin to Corbyn's peace offerings to May earlier. And this was post-Conference late September Corbyn, who had just machined a magnificent party mandate against calling a second referendum immediately and indeed specifically denouncing doing so or indeed committing to any particular direction prior to forming a Labour government; novel promises to do the exact opposite were especially implausible.
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Dec 13, 2019 19:06
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He was unpopular because people were told he was unpopular. Boris has spent the last decade being portrayed as a lovable scamp, and more recently a loving statesman. I genuinely don't know how any Labour candidate will ever win again. The Tories have such a huge, efficient machine behind them and it just doesn't seem to be penetrable. No matter what they do or who they kill. Does anyone have any good left/political angry metal bands to recommend? I need to vent and my usual stuff isn't doing it for me.
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Dec 13, 2019 19:07
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I like how one of the things blamed for failure is wrecking. Now that's what I call old school socialism.
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Dec 13, 2019 19:08
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I don't agree with a lot of this but I do think it's got some interesting analysis. Mostly I agree with the idea that Corbyn should have just fully committed to a leftist case for a well-organized brexit, rather than the triangulation he'd tried to do. Labour weren't hard remain but they got painted with that brush.
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Dec 13, 2019 19:08
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Also! We're heading for a big housing crash, the bubble is going to burst any day now, this time it will fall at the Tories feet. We have an energised community that are angry - anger is strong loving energy and it is directed right at those toads. Old media has let the mask slip. They're having a loving laugh if they think I'm getting a tv license or buying a paper again. (gently caress the guardian too) Lib Dems poo poo the bed. Farage has worked himself out of a job. Half these ghouls have grasped the crown and now they have it they will gently caress it, nowhere to hide. We're in a better shape than we were yesterday because we lost. You pick yourself up and learn from it. No more pissing about, being civil, any of that poo poo. A cornered animal is the most dangerous kind, there's only one way out. We will beat them just as our ancestors have been fighting for survival for thousands of generations, from boiling underwater swamps to shitposting on the internet. We owe it to them and those in the future - not going to let some loving slimeballs reckon they can rule me based on a few slogans and lies.
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Dec 13, 2019 19:08
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https://twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/1205480296273068037 green party 
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Dec 13, 2019 19:09
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OwlFancier posted:I think arguing about jeremy corbyn's popularity as a personal problem, however, is to miss the majority of the context. Plus using the BBC as an example, there's been a lot of normalisation going on when they've openly criticised him and his leadership, as there's still a large feeling among people that they're firmly biased to the left, so in their case the response has been "even the luvvies are admitting it". https://twitter.com/darrengrimes_/status/1205511996688482304
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Dec 13, 2019 19:11
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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justcola posted:Also! In what universe does the Right allow themselves to be held responsible for the consequences of their actions? They are incapable of wrongdoing, their actions are as perfect as flawless diamond. gently caress
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Dec 13, 2019 19:12
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Corbyn did his job and did it well. What he did was be a disposable sacrifice, now we can get rid of him and carry on with somebody better, and we didn't lose the better people to media bullshit during the campaign, they're still waiting in the wings. We have (probably) 5 years to sit down and plan now, whilst just letting the tories get on with loving everything up. Major thing I've come out of this with us, this "Us and them" mentality needs to change. It's not "labour vs tories" it's Us. We are all people, we spout socialism and equality and then in the same breath say "gently caress the tories! Guillotines! they deserve this!" We can't keep with "loving tories, racist heatless bastards the lot of them" as the main message we put out, as much as you think it internally, because those are the people you need to win over to your side. Maybe you think that, but, it doesn't help, it just pushes people away from the cause who otherwise might have been interested. As much as it feels like this comic to say that, there's an element of spiteful truth there.  whoops, I pressed enter by accident before I'd finished typing this and it posted. Oh well! Nettle Soup fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Dec 13, 2019 |
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Dec 13, 2019 19:13
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justcola posted:We're heading for a big housing crash, the bubble is going to burst any day now, this time it will fall at the Tories feet. This was my main fear about a Labour coalition government. Five minutes in, the global economy shits itself because one of the houses of cards finally falls over, Corbyn has to focus on preventing people from dying in the street while managing the coalition to keep it from splintering, and then he gets blamed for the whole thing, with people saying that his policies are responsible for it somehow, and low-information voters taking it at face value.
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Dec 13, 2019 19:14
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Nettle Soup posted:Corbyn did his job and did it well. What he did was be a disposable sacrifice, now we can get rid of him and carry on with somebody better, and we didn't lose the better people to media bullshit during the campaign, they're still waiting in the wings. We have (probably) 5 years to sit down and plan now, whilst just letting the tories get on with loving everything up.
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Dec 13, 2019 19:18
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Nettle Soup posted:Corbyn did his job and did it well. What he did was be a disposable sacrifice, now we can get rid of him and carry on with somebody better, and we didn't lose the better people to media bullshit during the campaign, they're still waiting in the wings. We have (probably) 5 years to sit down and plan now, whilst just letting the tories get on with loving everything up. I don't know if you were paying attention but the whole labour campaign was very studiously directed at as many people as it could, trying to manufacture a unity against the actual, unavoidable, architects of our misery. It didn't work. Specifically it lost to appeals to british nationalism by a gibbering idiot
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Dec 13, 2019 19:19
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Nettle Soup posted:Corbyn did his job and did it well. What he did was be a disposable sacrifice, now we can get rid of him and carry on with somebody better, and we didn't lose the better people to media bullshit during the campaign, they're still waiting in the wings. We have (probably) 5 years to sit down and plan now, whilst just letting the tories get on with loving everything up. think this will be particularly important if the sky doesn't fall in under Johnson; all those northern labour voters voting tory for the first time are unlikely to come back with such an approach
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Dec 13, 2019 19:19
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ronya posted:the caretaker govt idea was about a month before the remain pact coalesced in late October, and that chunk of increasingly ancient history has a straightforward answer too: if it was really one Queen's speech, one piece of legislation, and one dissolution, the desperation of Labour to make sure Corbyn was the premier specifically made no sense. These commitments have no constitutional enforcement save a gentleman's promise, and the government would have control over the Commons agenda; it was obviously intended to be a bluff akin to Corbyn's peace offerings to May earlier. And this was post-Conference late September Corbyn, who had just machined a magnificent party mandate against calling a second referendum immediately and indeed specifically denouncing doing so or indeed committing to any particular direction prior to forming a Labour government; novel promises to do the exact opposite were especially implausible. Corbyn was the leader of a party the commanded over 80% of the votes in the coalition - why the gently caress *should* he have stood aside, particularly as the Labour rule book forbade it ? And again, the reason they opposed was their own narrow political interests, just like why they put up all those bullshit bar charts and tactical voting sites.
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Dec 13, 2019 19:20
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stev posted:He was unpopular because people were told he was unpopular. I don't have metal recommendations at the ready, but IDLES are basically one long angry anti-Torie rant. They play a particularly hard form of post-punk that may scratch a metal itch.
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Dec 13, 2019 19:20
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TwoQuestions posted:In what universe does the Right allow themselves to be held responsible for the consequences of their actions? They are incapable of wrongdoing, their actions are as perfect as flawless diamond. We don't allow them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuMO_UuzA5s
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Dec 13, 2019 19:20
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justcola posted:Today is loving poo poo, aye. We took a bloody nose. But really, nothing has really changed for me over yesterday. I still have a house, food in the cupboard and can pay my rent. And have a beer. It's okay to feel like poo poo because it matters, and still does. I took an impromptu mental health morning off from work and went to my daughter's nativity and bought a new jumper and got hot dogs for lunch but still had a little cry in the kitchen while I was cooking them because while I'm probably going to be fine I know plenty of people who won't and ugh. This is probably the most cut up I've been about an election result. 2010 took some time to develop into the horror it was and for my dumb babby self to realise how much I'd hosed it by Agreeing with Nick 2015 was a minor shock but I didn't hold out that much hope and wasn't wild about Ed 2017 was a pleasant surprise, Jam Socialism was blocking Brexit, saboteurs were crushed and good times were had by all 2019 I thought we could build on last time and instead we got our collective guts ripped out and it's just horrible
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Dec 13, 2019 19:21
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sebzilla posted:I took an impromptu mental health morning off from work and went to my daughter's nativity and bought a new jumper and got hot dogs for lunch but still had a little cry in the kitchen while I was cooking them because while I'm probably going to be fine I know plenty of people who won't and ugh. yeah this is easily the worst election result of my life
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Dec 13, 2019 19:24
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OwlFancier posted:I don't know if you were paying attention but the whole labour campaign was very studiously directed at as many people as it could, trying to manufacture a unity against the actual, unavoidable, architects of our misery. It's kinda sad how effective nationalism still is at manipulating people, one would have thought that after all the misery and pain nationalism caused in the last few centuries people would have started to move away from it, but nope, still as strong as ever, like a goddamn drug.
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Dec 13, 2019 19:25
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Endorph posted:I don't agree with a lot of this but I do think it's got some interesting analysis. Yeah this is what I said earlier. Corbyn had better political instincts than his allies and coworkers. quote:After defeating May’s Withdrawal Agreement, the Labour right pressed home its advantage, agitating for a full shift to Remain. Ironically, they were aided by many grassroots Corbynistas who had bought the identitarian narrative of the EU referendum. A full endorsement of Remain at the 2019 Labour Party conference was only averted by Corbyn’s personal appeal to them to defer a final decision until after a Labour government had renegotiated Brexit. Nonetheless, deserted even by McDonnell, Corbyn’s feeble authority was broken, as shadow cabinet members lined up to confirm they would campaign for Remain.
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Dec 13, 2019 19:25
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Endorph posted:You can criticize racism and bigotry without saying everyone who voted leave is a subhuman, basically. That comic is describing a guy who's very obviously eager to be racist, not some dude who thinks the EU is a bureaucratic waste of time and generally stays out of politics. Like yeah that dude's probably pulled the lever for the tories a couple of times and gently caress him for that, but at the same time it's not like saying he's got a lizard brain that makes him hate muslims is going to accomplish anything. You don't need to be nice to very obvious racists, but you need to lift people up and show them that there can be something better, not tell them to gently caress off. Exactly, the comic takes it to extremes, but the "us and them" mentality has to change. It's just us.
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Dec 13, 2019 19:26
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Angry Lobster posted:It's kinda sad how effective nationalism still is at manipulating people, one would have thought that after all the misery and pain nationalism caused in the last few centuries people would have started to move away from it, but nope, still as strong as ever, like a goddamn drug. One of the things about it is that it's bad when the other guys do it, and we do it in response to them, which makes it good. As an ideology, absent an internationalist leftist framework to critique it with, it is entirely subjective based on who is doing it.
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Dec 13, 2019 19:26
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Nettle Soup posted:Exactly, the comic takes it to extremes, but the "us and them" mentality has to change. It's just us. It isn't "just us" though, "just us" is the exact kind of thinking that leads people to identify with boris johnson. "just us" in the context of british politics is, essentially, the basis for british nationalism. There are no class divides, no differences, there is only us, britain, and we're all in it together, please ignore that a tiny fraction of us is loving up the rest of us. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Dec 13, 2019 |
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Dec 13, 2019 19:28
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Corbyn was the leader of a party the commanded over 80% of the votes in the coalition - why the gently caress *should* he have stood aside, particularly as the Labour rule book forbade it ? And again, the reason they opposed was their own narrow political interests, just like why they put up all those bullshit bar charts and tactical voting sites. A coalition government would have required the votes of Tory defectors to form and there's no way they'd support Corbyn. Him allowing a caretaker government with a compromise leader that would have lasted a few months in order to defuse no-deal Brexit followed by new elections would have been a much better course of action both for himself and for Britain.
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Dec 13, 2019 19:28
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Corbyn was the leader of a party the commanded over 80% of the votes in the coalition - why the gently caress *should* he have stood aside, particularly as the Labour rule book forbade it ? And again, the reason they opposed was their own narrow political interests, just like why they put up all those bullshit bar charts and tactical voting sites. And the minority parties are the kingmakers in the coalition - why shouldn't they get allegedly inconsequential concessions out of a supply agreement, such as not tying their own party mast to a candidate so personally unpopular he would lead his own party to a crushing defeat due to aforesaid personal unpopularity within months? If it really was honestly intended to be a one bill government, it shouldn't have mattered so much to Labour, which would get the general election it wanted so much anyway (and by any accounts it thought it could win at the time, even if other parties also thought, however incorrectly, that they could also win ahem)
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Dec 13, 2019 19:31
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qhat posted:Like idk honestly Andrew Scheer just tried to lead the Tories for weeks after just losing an election in Canada, and then finally resigned weeks later because obviously he's an unelectable prick, so it's refreshing for me when a party leader sits the gently caress down and let's someone else take the reins, instantly. Idk it's nice. This is from pages ago but Scheer is a special case. The conservative leadership election had a lot of the heavyweights sitting it out because the assumption was that Trudeau would be unbeatable for at least one more cycle, and they didn't want to have the stink of a loss on them when it came time for the election they thought they could win. Trudeau is now seen as a lot more vulnerable (though I still have no idea what the conservatives constituency level path to victory is, Prairie blowouts don't matter for poo poo), and so Scheer was bound to fight to hang on - the loss can't really be blamed on him even if he is a boring nobody with lovely opinions, because those lovely opinions are the core views of the conservative party. He was always a placeholder anyway, he has no incentive not to fight to the end to save his job. But at the same time the real contenders for a long term conservative leader see a good chance of defeating Trudeau next time around, and so they're pushing him out. There is a 100% chance they knew all about the private school subsidies long ago.
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Dec 13, 2019 19:32
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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we shoulda gone lexit lot god damnit sorry tess
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Dec 13, 2019 19:33
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Nettle Soup posted:Exactly, the comic takes it to extremes, but the "us and them" mentality has to change. It's just us.
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Dec 13, 2019 19:33
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If there is only Us then who are We fighting against in that suggestion?
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Dec 13, 2019 19:34
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Nettle Soup posted:We can't keep with "loving tories, racist heatless bastards the lot of them" as the main message we put out, as much as you think it internally, because those are the people you need to win over to your side. Maybe you think that, but, it doesn't help, it just pushes people away from the cause who otherwise might have been interested. Strong disagree with this. The poll data shows that the Tories gained hardly any votes. Labour voters either went to the Brexit Party, the LibDems or stayed home. So many stayed home. The objective is not to convince Tories to vote Labour, that's a doomed idea from the start. The objective is to get at least 2 of the 3 groups of defectors/non-voters back in the Labour camp. Ideally all 3 or secret 4th option: get the Scots back on side. Any energy spent trying to chase the Tory voter is wasted and counterproductive.
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Dec 13, 2019 19:34
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OwlFancier posted:If there is only Us then who are We fighting against in that suggestion?
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Dec 13, 2019 19:35
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Communist Thoughts posted:we shoulda gone lexit lot god damnit poo poo Tesseraction was right all along.
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Dec 13, 2019 19:36
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Endorph posted:the rich Then how does that gel with the idea that we can't talk about guillotines because that's divisive?
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Dec 13, 2019 19:36
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