|
Orange Devil posted:Strong disagree with this. The poll data shows that the Tories gained hardly any votes. Labour voters either went to the Brexit Party, the LibDems or stayed home. So many stayed home. The objective is not to convince Tories to vote Labour, that's a doomed idea from the start. The objective is to get at least 2 of the 3 groups of defectors/non-voters back in the Labour camp. Ideally all 3 or secret 4th option: get the Scots back on side. Any energy spent trying to chase the Tory voter is wasted and counterproductive. I'm curious, how would you gain the Scots back?
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 03:21 |
|
|
OwlFancier posted:If there is only Us then who are We fighting against in that suggestion? Just a vague freefloating idea of Bigotry, somehow devoid of People Who Are Bigots, I loving guess? I don't really know how I'm supposed to befriend "Them" when I am, as I have yelled previously, someone whose very loving existence is offensive to them
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:37
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Then how does that gel with the idea that we can't talk about guillotines because that's divisive? because they were talking about 'guillotines for tory voters' not 'guillotines for the rich' bionic vapour boy posted:Just a vague freefloating idea of Bigotry, somehow devoid of People Who Are Bigots, I loving guess?
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:37
|
|
|
the only way Scottish Labour can get the Scots back on their side is if they have a leftist leader who is fundamentally okay with the idea of independence and isn't constantly siding with the Tories and the Lib Dems. Otherwise, the SNP will dominate the era of neonationalism until independence
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:37
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:I think arguing about jeremy corbyn's popularity as a personal problem, however, is to miss the majority of the context. i dunno i think it's telling that every defense of corbyn comes down to him being a genial decent jam granddad. true, but it was contradicted by the behavior of labour activists, who want revolution, and i think that contradiction is what caused problems more than anything else. corbyn didn't really channel the anger of his base sanders is a pretty good comparison point, imo. he rose to prominence around the same time corbyn did, he's experienced a very similar wave of incredibly negative media coverage from both left and right wing sources, but his approval ratings are still about as high as it's possible for any politician in america to be. i think it's because he doesn't piss around with being wholesome or civil. he's always been clear about how he's building a political revolution, and that allows the anger in his base to reconcile with his image as a leader to outside voters
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:37
|
|
|
We are all incredibly owned and have been barking up the wrong tree this whole time regarding brexit and corbo even if the policies were correct So I'm now throwing my weight behind electoral titan chuka umunna
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:38
|
|
|
ronya posted:the trick would be finding a Labour leader who can pitch a manifesto with more austerity than the LDEM one, as it did in 2017, and still retain credibility on the party left-wing This election seems to have provided a useful test of how useful the ‘leftie enthusiasm machine’ actually is. And it looks like the answer was not so much Trotsky’s armoured train as Tucker’s marzipan dildo. There has to be a more productive way of channelling that enthusiasm that actually leads to crosses on papers.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:39
|
|
|
Endorph posted:because they were talking about 'guillotines for tory voters' not 'guillotines for the rich' I do not think the labour campaign was characterised by guillotines for tory voters. It was very very carefully constructed to imply a unity between people against institutions. And even the people on the ground that I was with were emphasising that it is the people in power who are the problem. It. Didn't. Work.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:39
|
|
|
Venuz Patrol posted:i dunno i think it's telling that every defense of corbyn comes down to him being a genial decent jam granddad. true, but it was contradicted by the behavior of labour activists, who want revolution, and i think that contradiction is what caused problems more than anything else. corbyn didn't really channel the anger of his base OwlFancier posted:I do not think the labour campaign was characterised by guillotines for tory voters. It was very very carefully constructed to imply a unity between people against institutions. And even the people on the ground that I was with were emphasising that it is the people in power who are the problem.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:40
|
|
|
Endorph posted:people who are bigots exist and a lot of them are tories. probably the majority of tories even Now spell out for me like I'm simple why I cannot declare bigots as the "Them" to my "Us"
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:40
|
|
ThomasPaine posted:The fight goes on, and it's always darkest before the dawn. I respect your ability to try to shine this stinking turd as best you can and remain optimistic given the circumstances. As an alternative, have you considered marrying someone from Scotland so you can maintain EU citizenship and escape before Scotland erects a wall between it and the poverty blasted hellscape that will be known as The Afterscape?
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:41
|
|
|
Orange Devil posted:Strong disagree with this. The poll data shows that the Tories gained hardly any votes. Labour voters either went to the Brexit Party, the LibDems or stayed home. So many stayed home. The objective is not to convince Tories to vote Labour, that's a doomed idea from the start. The objective is to get at least 2 of the 3 groups of defectors/non-voters back in the Labour camp. Ideally all 3 or secret 4th option: get the Scots back on side. Any energy spent trying to chase the Tory voter is wasted and counterproductive. Nah, I'll stand by it, if you really want to build a campaign on love, empathy and social equality, spending a load of your time literally shouting "gently caress 45% of the population! Bastards!" helps nothing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:42
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:I do not think the labour campaign was characterised by guillotines for tory voters. It was very very carefully constructed to imply a unity between people against institutions. And even the people on the ground that I was with were emphasising that it is the people in power who are the problem. it was working pretty well for a while, but once the narrative was framed as "EVERYTHING IS EITHER BREXIT OR ANTI-BREXIT" he was basically hosed
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:42
|
|
|
Nicola Sturgeon says the PM has "no right" to block another Scottish independence referendum Well on the brightaife with bojock horseman back in command we can GET SEXIT DONE
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:42
|
|
|
oxford_town posted:think this will be particularly important if the sky doesn't fall in under Johnson; all those northern labour voters voting tory for the first time are unlikely to come back with such an approach Labour lost the seats because Labour voters didn't vote and some to the Brexit party, not that they voted Tory. The lessons to learn are why the voters were unmotivated, not what did the Tories do to lure them over.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:43
|
|
|
bionic vapour boy posted:Now spell out for me like I'm simple why I cannot declare bigots as the "Them" to my "Us" The average tory would want me dead also so this isn't a privilege thing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:43
|
|
|
Endorph posted:It didn't work because the messaging on the most important issue of the day (Brexit) was muddled. If you think it is important not to be divisive and construct unity between political opponents then I really want to know how you would suggest labour should have approached the brexit problem other than the absurd lengths it went to to try and construct a unity where none existed on that issue.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:43
|
|
|
HJB posted:He's been one of the few defenders of Corbyn's Labour in the media.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:43
|
|
|
Nettle Soup posted:Nah, I'll stand by it, if you really want to build a campaign on love, empathy and social equality, spending a load of your time literally shouting "gently caress 45% of the population! Bastards!" helps nothing. If you state something enough times it doesn't make it true.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:45
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:If you think it is important not to be divisive and construct unity between political opponents then I really want to know how you would suggest labour should have approached the brexit problem other than the absurd lengths it went to to try and construct a unity where none existed on that issue. quote:Nonetheless, it was still theoretically possible for Labour to have accepted the referendum result and devised a left-wing Brexit project. The party leadership, particularly the lifelong socialist Eurosceptics Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell, could have emphasised the contradiction between the EU’s neoliberal constitutionalism and their socialist revivalism, the cause of much popular enthusiasm for the party. They could have refused the attempt to traduce and delegitimise Leave voters and instead emphasised the common interest of most citizens, Leavers and Remainers, in breaking from neoliberalism. They could have set out how Labour would exploit the freedoms and policy space created by leaving the EU to transform British society (see Proposal #12 - Moving Towards Socialism: Economic Reform, Popular Sovereignty and the Nation-State). This vision would undoubtedly have been more attractive to voters than the feeble, barren alternative proposed by the Tories: a lame notion of “global Britain” focused on free trade deals. The hard-right vision of “Singapore-on-Thames” never attracted support from more than six percent of the public. Brexit was the left’s prize to seize.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:46
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:If you state something enough times it doesn't make it true. No, but makes people perceive it to be true.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:47
|
|
|
namesake posted:Labour lost the seats because Labour voters didn't vote and some to the Brexit party, not that they voted Tory. i've only seen this one:  ...with 25% of the lab-leave 2017 voters going tory is there more analysis regarding the turnout?
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:47
|
|
|
I really do not think you are fixing the brexit divide by rehashing the lexit argument. People didn't support remain because they were secret lexiters. People actually like the EU, especially media people and especially liberal democrats who were already a problem for labour in many seats.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:48
|
|
|
If being made to actually stare in the face of what their politics engenders makes Tories feel guilty or bad they could, I dont know, stop being tories and listen to the people they're hurting. I'm not going to be the one to plaintively ask them to stop treading on my neck, I did that long enough with my family and only got to stop because they died.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:48
|
|
|
This election proves, once again, electoralism doesn't work. What the gently caress kind of strategy is it? The labour party is disconnected from, uninvolved in people's lives, it has no mass base. It does nothing except wait until an election rolls around and then promises that it'll fix everything if you please vote for it. That's an absurd strategy that relies entirely on the mercy of the press, which is controlled by the bourgeoisie. Every hour you spent doorknocking in a gammon area could've been spent setting up a food bank with a big "LABOUR PARTY COMMUNITY SURVIVAL CENTRE" sign over the front door. That would build you a base from actual deeds rather than hoping you can build one from promises. And if you still didn't win, you'd still have made a measurable improvement in the lives of the working class, which is supposed to be what the party is for.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:48
|
|
|
Diogines posted:I respect your ability to try to shine this stinking turd as best you can and remain optimistic given the circumstances. As an alternative, have you considered marrying someone from Scotland so you can maintain EU citizenship and escape before Scotland erects a wall between it and the poverty blasted hellscape that will be known as The Afterscape? I know that you're only joking, but there's no distinction between Scots and English citizens because they both belong to the UK. The whole deal with the SNP's "civic nationalism" is that you only have to live in Scotland to be considered Scottish, which is why non-British EU citizens could vote in the indyref. I think TP already lives in Scotland but I don't recall exactly.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:50
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:I do not think the labour campaign was characterised by guillotines for tory voters. It was very very carefully constructed to imply a unity between people against institutions. And even the people on the ground that I was with were emphasising that it is the people in power who are the problem. I am coming to agree with the idea that to voters, Labours campaign came off as trying to bribe and distract people from the fact they voted brexit and came off as patronizing, the idea of a 2nd referendum was more toxic than imagined. Apparently it made people really angry and it was a bigger issue than the labour campaigners thought it would be. So Corbyn was right from the start to whip for article 50 and all the other stuff. Infact Corbyn has been right on the EU his entire career. Frankly I too have trouble understanding the lefts love affair with the neoliberal EU. But anyway he did not actually have the power to stand up the membership which demanded remain so Corbyn had no choice in the manner, all his closest allies had gone remain too.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:51
|
|
|
bionic vapour boy posted:If being made to actually stare in the face of what their politics engenders makes Tories feel guilty or bad they could, I dont know, stop being tories and listen to the people they're hurting. I'm not going to be the one to plaintively ask them to stop treading on my neck, I did that long enough with my family and only got to stop because they died. If someone is a lost cause, you can give up on them. I'm not saying you should spend every moment of every day pleading to the same five racists. Just give people a solid chance to turn things around, and if they don't care, gently caress them.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:52
|
|
|
Ahem. Stalin Was Right
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:53
|
|
|
HorseLord posted:This election proves, once again, electoralism doesn't work. Astonishingly, this is a horselord post I agree with. I don't know how the laws work but I do wonder if there is a future for labour as a kind of... political cooperative. Put the membership mobilization and some funding into operating community services and couple it with explicit political advocacy. Ideally we could get to the point where we're actually taking over parts of the economy, though I don't know whether that is economically viable or whether labour has the funding for it, or again whether there's laws against doing that as a political party. It could, potentially, be a thing that might work in the north, though. Being as we are economically left behind by the wider UK.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:53
|
|
|
Endorph posted:It didn't work because the messaging on the most important issue of the day (Brexit) was muddled. I hate it, but it really feels like another example of the left being unable to overcome internal divisions and just whip everyone into shutting the gently caress up and voting party line even while blatantly obvious evil is on the march. Meanwhile the Tories were seemingly bitterly divided over remain for years to the point where it nuked two PMs... but all voted Tory anyway in the end because big daddy said so and they're authoritarian softbrains. I sincerely have no idea what Corbyn should have done when traditional Labour voters who also liked Brexit reacted by just going "Well gently caress Labour then, taking my ball and going home." If you make Labour all in for left Brexit it just feels like the remain Labour just does the same loving thing for Lib Dems or pouts and stays home or some equally dumb poo poo and you're just hosed from a slightly different angle. Sincerely I have no idea here.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:53
|
|
|
oxford_town posted:i've only seen this one: That's only about 6% of the total Labour vote which is countered by the 2017 Con vote that voted Labour. Those bars are percentages, not actual voters.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:53
|
|
|
His Divine Shadow posted:Frankly I too have trouble understanding the lefts love affair with the neoliberal EU. Sounds like you take the peace that Europe has enjoyed for the past 70 years for granted.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:55
|
|
|
namesake posted:That's only about 6% of the total Labour vote which is countered by the 2017 Con vote that voted Labour. Those bars are percentages, not actual voters. presumably 8% of the tory remainers and 3% of the tory leavers, as indicated by that graph, is a smaller absolute number of voters than 6% of the total labour vote? depending on the distribution of voters in FPTP that 6% has a potentially big impact
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:56
|
|
|
sean10mm posted:I hate it, but it really feels like another example of the left being unable to overcome internal divisions and just whip everyone into shutting the gently caress up and voting party line even while blatantly obvious evil is on the march.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:56
|
|
|
I wonder if the european nations killing each other militarily or themselves economically causes more deaths in the long run?
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:56
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Astonishingly, this is a horselord post I agree with. My proposal is standard communist tactics going back a hundred years. That you're astonished by it like it's an amazing new idea is illustrative of the problem with your project - you don't know poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:57
|
|
|
HorseLord posted:This election proves, once again, electoralism doesn't work. The rare horselord post I agree with. If Labour are locked out of making a positive difference in peoples lives via legislation then mobilise the organisation to make a difference in peoples lives in small but concrete ways.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:57
|
|
|
HorseLord posted:My proposal is standard communist tactics going back a hundred years. That you're astonished by it like it's an amazing new idea is illustrative of the problem with your project - you don't know poo poo. I'm not astonished by it as a concept I'm just surprised you're suggesting it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 19:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 03:21 |
|
|
His Divine Shadow posted:Frankly I too have trouble understanding the lefts love affair with the neoliberal EU. But anyway he did not actually have the power to stand up the membership which demanded remain so Corbyn had no choice in the manner, all his closest allies had gone remain too. The problem is that both sides were at least partly right - Brexit was conceived as a Tory scam to gently caress everyone over, get rich and pander to race hate, and how they'll actually implement it will probably murderfuck the working class in the short term. It's also true that the EU status quo is basically a neoliberal shitpile that fucks the working class over the long haul, and a socialist would want to disentangle themselves from in some kind of rational way as part of a long term plan.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2019 20:00
|
|