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OwlFancier posted:I'm not astonished by it as a concept I'm just surprised you're suggesting it. You're surprised that an orthodox communist man that you've repeatedly dismissed for being an orthodox communist is suggesting orthodox communist tactics? Like I said you don't know poo poo. You specifically, don't know poo poo. You make assumptions and form views about things you do not understand.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:02
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stev posted:Does anyone have any good left/political angry metal bands to recommend? I need to vent and my usual stuff isn't doing it for me. Body Count. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlk7o5T56iw This poo poo has a great "solidarity" message. "They can't, gently caress with us Once they realise we're all on the same side They can't, split us up And let them prosper off the divide"
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Dec 13, 2019 20:02
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big scary monsters posted:I know that you're only joking, but there's no distinction between Scots and English citizens because they both belong to the UK. The whole deal with the SNP's "civic nationalism" is that you only have to live in Scotland to be considered Scottish, which is why non-British EU citizens could vote in the indyref. I think TP already lives in Scotland but I don't recall exactly. How Scotland and England would be divided in reality is a huge part of what puts people off voting in favour of independence. But it would have to be a complete separation to satisfy what the SNP and the support it's cultivated want. They want to remain in the EU, and have full control of the nation. Even if Westminister decided to secede full control to a Scottish parliament, any attempt to remain borderless then runs into almost the exact same Ireland problem in regards to the EU; the EU is going to (rightly) want a hard border to protect its market. It's a very hard problem, and not easily solved. Just as a disclaimer, so people know where I'm coming from and my personal bias': I was born in Australia to Scottish parents. I'm a dual UK/AU citizen. I've lived in both Australia and Scotland, and now live in the US (I married an American). I would love to return back to Scotland one day though, so I've got a bias towards it being a place with a hopeful future; and I would like the UK as a whole to still be united in some sort of capacity. I do admit I'm not personally on the ground there right now though as well, so my sentiments are filtered a bit through family and friends living there now. So if anyone currently living there thinks I'm talking out of my arse, go ahead and tell me so.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:02
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I strongly vibrate from the arguments that labour should have embraced lexit and thrown NI under the bus to achieve socialism in one britain
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Dec 13, 2019 20:03
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I also fear both Australia and the UK going down the same path as the US lol Trust me, you -really- don't want to emulate it's economic and social model.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:05
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OwlFancier posted:If you think it is important not to be divisive and construct unity between political opponents then I really want to know how you would suggest labour should have approached the brexit problem other than the absurd lengths it went to to try and construct a unity where none existed on that issue. By coming up with a proposal that actively addressed both sides legitimate interests, rather than trying to be ambiguous over who it was planning to screw over. Specifically, massively more funding for the North and regions, ‘paid for’ by not Brexiting. Yeah I know economically that makes no sense; narratively it does.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:05
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Zakutambah posted:I also fear both Australia and the UK going down the same path as the US lol
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Dec 13, 2019 20:07
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stev posted:He was unpopular because people were told he was unpopular. Pig. Raymond Watts is amazing, industrial rather than metal per se https://youtu.be/WmEDUFk3fNo
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Dec 13, 2019 20:11
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OwlFancier posted:I wonder if the european nations killing each other militarily or themselves economically causes more deaths in the long run? "The long run"? Brexit is set to kill more British citizens within two years than Nazi Germany managed in six.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:13
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Jedit posted:"The long run"? Brexit is set to kill more British citizens within two years than Nazi Germany managed in six. I was more meaning "being in the EU" as the course of economic murder though I suppose you could argue that you can't want to leave the EU unless you're in it. I'm still more inclined to call that a british problem though. Also the nazis managed to kill rather a lot more than that if you count "starting world war 2" as their fault. Or at least if your argument for ther EU is that it prevents more things like that. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Dec 13, 2019 |
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Dec 13, 2019 20:14
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radmonger posted:By coming up with a proposal that actively addressed both sides legitimate interests, rather than trying to be ambiguous over who it was planning to screw over. he couldn't though, which is why he got screwed. the centrists/media will of course ignore this entirely and scream about how the party needs to go back to the glory days of blairite
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Dec 13, 2019 20:16
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HorseLord posted:This election proves, once again, electoralism doesn't work. Bernie Sanders is doing something along those lines here in America. Whenever a labor union's picketing or protesting, he pickets with them, has his network of volunteers join the picket, and signal boosts the union on social media for support. It's a form of outreach that no politician here has done in decades.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:20
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Random Integer posted:The rare horselord post I agree with. If Labour are locked out of making a positive difference in peoples lives via legislation then mobilise the organisation to make a difference in peoples lives in small but concrete ways. You speak as if the two are separate things. One will affect the other, make a difference in peoples lives outside of the electoral cycle and they will vote for you. It's been the secret of Scandinavian social democrats for a full century.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:21
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:You speak as if the two are separate things. One will affect the other, make a difference in peoples lives and they will vote for you. It's been the secret of Scandinavian social democrats for a full century. Not that they are following it themselves anymore, too busy turning themselves into new labour
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Dec 13, 2019 20:22
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the problem with the party as a substitute for organized state welfare in first-world countries is straightforward to illustrate: last year the Labour party raised about £45m and spent about £45m. This is a national, annual figure. These are ongoing operational costs, not £45m of free cash flow. for comparison, the budget for Camden council (just Camden council) was about £230m, of which about £200m is social spending. This does not include centrally-run social care spending like the NHS, it's just the stuff run by local councils. these numbers are not even close, the magnitudes are not even close. You cannot outdo income taxes and welfare states with voluntarist party organization. Even putting aside issues of universal access and procedural consistency - things civil services excel at, rather than ad-hoc party organizations, let's not call it clientelism - the magnitudes are just not sanely plausible the sort of tactics that work for third-world socialists operating in slums and rural farmlands are not applicable for first-world countries with welfare states
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Dec 13, 2019 20:22
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OwlFancier posted:I was more meaning "being in the EU" as the course of economic murder though I suppose you could argue that you can't want to leave the EU unless you're in it. They killed more people, sure, but not more British people. We're harming ourselves more than the war did. Have a song from a boomer who isn't poo poo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnZTRP5_01Y If you like it, there's a link to a free download in there.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:23
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I think it's fairly safe to say that making the labour party into an outreach, charity and avocation structure isn't actually a bad idea: make people know that every day you can count on labour party support to help you make rent, or get food, or the like and you'll help people and get popular.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:23
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ronya posted:the sort of tactics that work for third-world socialists operating in slums and rural farmlands are not applicable for first-world countries with welfare states
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Dec 13, 2019 20:24
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Zakutambah posted:I also fear both Australia and the UK going down the same path as the US lol That's already happened in both countries and now that the Tories know they have an electoral advantage they are actively pursuing their goals both culturally and economically. The new thing over here in Australia seems to be our PM is trying to avoid as much media time as he can. Not David Cameron statement-and-run-away levels, more the running-away.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:25
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His Divine Shadow posted:Not that they are following it themselves anymore, too busy turning themselves into new labour It's sad. The only part in sweden where I can still see that are in suburbs in Stockholm, where alot of the youth centers, sporting clubs and community projects are run by socdems. The big challenge for labour in the future is to not abandon the rural vote and focus on radicalized academic middle class youth voters for short term gains in the big cities. They need to win the countryside back and can't take it for granted. Otherwise you'll end up like Hollande or Corbyn.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:26
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Watching a livestream of a protest in central London. They just pushed past a line of cops like they weren't there.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:27
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NewMars posted:I think it's fairly safe to say that making the labour party into an outreach, charity and avocation structure isn't actually a bad idea: make people know that every day you can count on labour party support to help you make rent, or get food, or the like and you'll help people and get popular. This is effectively how it works on a council, parochial level, yeah.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:27
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:You speak as if the two are separate things. One will affect the other, make a difference in peoples lives outside of the electoral cycle and they will vote for you. It's been the secret of Scandinavian social democrats for a full century. That is of course (part of) the origin of the Labour Party, and perhaps forgetting that is where they've been going wrong all these years. ronya posted:the problem with the party as a substitute for organized state welfare in first-world countries is straightforward to illustrate: last year the Labour party raised about £45m and spent about £45m. This is a national, annual figure. These are ongoing operational costs, not £45m of free cash flow. Nobody's talking about replacing the entire welfare state, and I think you know that. In fact thanks for coming up at just this point to illustrate the problem with technocratic bird's eye view politics.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:27
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Nobody's talking about replacing the entire welfare state, and I think you know that. In fact thanks for coming up at just this point to illustrate the problem with technocratic bird's eye view politics. maybe you aren't, but I do think HorseLord is
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Dec 13, 2019 20:28
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ewe2 posted:That's already happened in both countries and now that the Tories know they have an electoral advantage they are actively pursuing their goals both culturally and economically. The new thing over here in Australia seems to be our PM is trying to avoid as much media time as he can. Not David Cameron statement-and-run-away levels, more the running-away. It's fuckin' weird in Oz right now. It's like they think if they just stay quiet long enough, all the problems go away. ...which with the news being all Murdoch and not reporting on anything outside the 24news cycle, it's probably exactly what will happen  sigh
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Dec 13, 2019 20:29
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HJB posted:This is effectively how it works on a council, parochial level, yeah. Do labour councils actually do that though? Or do they just stuff their pockets? If they do do it, do they actually advertise it's labour doing it?
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Dec 13, 2019 20:29
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Zakutambah posted:How Scotland and England would be divided in reality is a huge part of what puts people off voting in favour of independence. But it would have to be a complete separation to satisfy what the SNP and the support it's cultivated want. They want to remain in the EU, and have full control of the nation. Even if Westminister decided to secede full control to a Scottish parliament, any attempt to remain borderless then runs into almost the exact same Ireland problem in regards to the EU; the EU is going to (rightly) want a hard border to protect its market. Yeah that was one of everal things that was unclear in the 2014 referendum - following independence, just who would be Scottish? It seemed pretty likely that all UK citizens resident in Scotland would have the option to gain Scottish citizenship. Would they then have been allowed to retain UK citizenship too? Usually the UK has no problem with holding multiple nationalities, and NI born people are entitled to both Irish and UK citizenships, so maybe. Non-residents born in Scotland, non-residents with Scottish parents or grandparents, non-British and non-EU people living in Scotland, that was all pretty unclear. And as you say, the border is going to be a real problem too following Brexit.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:30
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Camrath posted:Watching a livestream of a protest in central London. They just pushed past a line of cops like they weren't there. Don't worry, Are Boys in Bloo will have their water cannon soon enough
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Dec 13, 2019 20:31
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OwlFancier posted:Astonishingly, this is a horselord post I agree with. I mean, doesn't the Cooperative movement already do this? They have their retail and banking arms, plus their mutual bits like funeral care, insurance and so on, and they have a political party - one which is affiliated with Labour. If the Co-op can do it, there must be no legal block to Labour running commercial services? Although I can see the Conservatives changing that legal framework in a heartbeat if it looks like it's working. ronya posted:the sort of tactics that work for third-world socialists operating in slums and rural farmlands are not applicable for first-world countries with welfare states That bodes well for Labour in the 2030s then, doesn't it...?
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Dec 13, 2019 20:31
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OwlFancier posted:Then how does that gel with the idea that we can't talk about guillotines because that's divisive? guillotines are divisive by design
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Dec 13, 2019 20:31
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your idiot island voted tories into power n four consecutive general elections and i hope some of you get off before it sinks into a sea of poo poo
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Dec 13, 2019 20:32
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I've lived under a few different Labour and SNP councils and they were all mainly preoccupied with giving lucrative contracts to their rich friends. Local government is awful everywhere because nobody cares or votes.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:32
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OwlFancier posted:Do labour councils actually do that though? Or do they just stuff their pockets? I'm thinking on a particularly small scale in fairness.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:32
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Camrath posted:Watching a livestream of a protest in central London. They just pushed past a line of cops like they weren't there. What's the protest about?
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Dec 13, 2019 20:33
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ronya posted:maybe you aren't, but I do think HorseLord is No, even they simply suggested opening a centre to help people who are being hosed over. Yes, their endgame is - given their known views - replacement of the apparatus of state, but saying "Nope, no point doing anything if you can't do everything" is basically just as wrong in the exact opposite direction.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:33
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big scary monsters posted:Yeah that was one of everal things that was unclear in the 2014 referendum - following independence, just who would be Scottish? It seemed pretty likely that all UK citizens resident in Scotland would have the option to gain Scottish citizenship. Would they then have been allowed to retain UK citizenship too? Usually the UK has no problem with holding multiple nationalities, and NI born people are entitled to both Irish and UK citizenships, so maybe. Non-residents born in Scotland, non-residents with Scottish parents or grandparents, non-British and non-EU people living in Scotland, that was all pretty unclear. And as you say, the border is going to be a real problem too following Brexit. I thought the policy was pretty clear, any British or EU nationals resident in Scotland at the time of independence would be given Scottish citizenship if they wanted it
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Dec 13, 2019 20:34
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OwlFancier posted:If they do do it, do they actually advertise it's labour doing it? so win-win really
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Dec 13, 2019 20:34
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OwlFancier posted:Do labour councils actually do that though? Or do they just stuff their pockets? It's only ever advertised as the local council doing it rather than any party in particular so there's a disconnect between council efforts and GE progress. Also Labour run councils have a bad habit of getting their budgets slashed by the central government which makes it somewhat harder.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:35
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sebzilla posted:Don't worry, Are Boys in Bloo will have their water cannon soon enough https://www.facebook.com/groups/603102889839032/permalink/1508343119315000/ Batons are out but the filth are being pushed back. Manic_Misanthrope posted:What's the protest about? Against Johnson and the tories. I think from the flags it's an anarchist thing?
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Dec 13, 2019 20:35
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That's probably a bad idea
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Dec 13, 2019 20:36
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