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Manic_Misanthrope posted:It's only ever advertised as the local council doing it rather than any party in particular so there's a disconnect between council efforts and GE progress. Are councils even allowed to do partisan advertising in the things they do?
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Dec 13, 2019 20:36
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Factor_VIII posted:Sounds like you take the peace that Europe has enjoyed for the past 70 years for granted. ronya posted:maybe you aren't, but I do think HorseLord is
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Dec 13, 2019 20:40
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marktheando posted:I've lived under a few different Labour and SNP councils and they were all mainly preoccupied with giving lucrative contracts to their rich friends. Local government is awful everywhere because nobody cares or votes. When I lived in Melbourne, it felt the only difference between the state Labour and Coalition parties was which development company got awarded contracts. Anyway; that's Auspol. But this UK election at least it felt the pressure from the top was towards a pretty forward looking manifesto. Government is always going to be a bit poo poo, it's full of dickheads like all groups, but it's certainly not the ridiculously simple "both sides are bad" dichotomy bullshit that goes around. (Not insinuating that's what you were saying, more stressing the importance of staying informed of what your local MPs and the leadership of the party are doing)
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Dec 13, 2019 20:41
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I went to bed at 9.30 last night to get a good nights sleep without making GBS threads about exit polls but it just meant I woke up from a literal dream of a labour government into this reality.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:41
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I mean technically everyone did but you presumably managed to avoid a few hours of it, so still a net profit.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:42
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Swinson outside NR 10 after losing her seat to a Tory. Shouting into the night sky "My lord what have I done to displease you!? Did I not sacrifice everything for you!?"
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Dec 13, 2019 20:43
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I've gone through most of my grieving and I feel cleansed. This result was dogshit, but we need to take things on fresh-faced. - The tories have their majority. No more "frustration" by coalition or minority government, they own everything they do. We don't let them forget it. We rub their noses in the shits they leave like naughty puppies. Every closed school, every empty high street, every dead body. - We pick leadership who can get angry. No more kinder, gentler politics. I'm fond of Barry Gardiner as deputy if he was up for it. We've got a chance to build a new shadow cabinet free of melts. Watson is gone for good and we can have the deputy Corbyn needed. - No more entertaining credulous loving idiot commentators. As a movement, as a party, we need to talk past the arsholes who are "just asking questions". Next time someone appears on an interview and some ghoul like Marr talks about "Labour's anti-semitism problem", we just lay into them about their tacit support of the Tories and their racist-as-gently caress leader. We don't defend or make excuses, there's no point anymore since that becomes the story.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:45
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Went to the protest near number 10, unfortunately loads of SWP bastards. Still, need to do better. Not feeling great but there is so much we need to do.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:47
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ronya posted:the problem with the party as a substitute for organized state welfare in first-world countries is straightforward to illustrate: last year the Labour party raised about £45m and spent about £45m. This is a national, annual figure. These are ongoing operational costs, not £45m of free cash flow. I mean this is true but currently Labour only raise money for the purposes of their political operation so its not exactly a counter-argument. It doesnt demonstrate that Labour couldnt raise more money for welfare projects if they specifically set out to do so. But of course its not about replacing the welfare state at all. Its about leveraging Labours biggest asset, a large well organised membership, to improve peoples lives. That would also be something that would keep that membership engaged and energised outside of a major campaign, which is important. Particularly after a dispiriting defeat. It is of course much easier to say than actually do (Im absolutely certain that if it isnt already illegal for Labour to do it directly the Tories would make it illegal asap). But it is the kind of work that built Labours deep roots in communities in the first place, and clearly those roots need to be rebuilt across the country.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:47
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https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1205557632712544261 the melts are going to push hard to try to swing us back to blairtown. this is the election result kinnock wanted 2 years ago.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:48
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winegums posted:- We pick leadership who can get angry. As much as I hate giving into what looks like populism, I agree this needs to happen. They need a good attack dog leader; no one listens to the quieter leader willing to spend some time explaining the finer details, someone that can speak in easily quotable headlines is much more effective. Which is kinda poo poo, but that's how it seems most current governments got into and retained power. Make a lot of noise on a few certain things, keep all the important stuff you want to do quiet until you have a majority and it's too late.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:50
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Of course, that also assumes a press willing to give them the time of day. Some press (*cough*Murdoch) are never going to give headline space to a party that in any way threatens the current status quo too much. Edit: that should be -positive- headline space. They find plenty of space for the "Labor wants you in the gulag" style ones. Zakutambah fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Dec 13, 2019 |
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Dec 13, 2019 20:52
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Guavanaut posted:Didn't that coincide more with the two main sparring partners in 4 centuries of European aggression both getting nuclear arms than the EU? The Entente Cordiale was signed in 1904 in order for France and Britain to ally against Germany, so the normalization of Franco-British relations predates their acquisition of nukes by decades. The European project on the other hand was created in the aftermath of WWII in order to ensure that such a European war would never happen again between any state therein. PS: Churchill at one point had wanted to unite Britain and France into a single state. That would have been a good way to prevent Brexit.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:52
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Someone who has read Machiavelli carefully, and knows exactly how to treat our feral media/
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Dec 13, 2019 20:52
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Guavanaut posted:Didn't that coincide more with the two main sparring partners in 4 centuries of European aggression both getting nuclear arms than the EU? *studies 4 centuries of continental political-military history*  "clearly, the only lesson this teaches us is that the path to lasting peace is more and bigger weapons"but no, it really doesn't "coincide more" with that at all. what the gently caress're you on about
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Dec 13, 2019 20:54
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Whoops, quote is not edit
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Dec 13, 2019 20:54
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winegums posted:https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1205557632712544261 I saw the ad for it, Fiona Bruce looked like she hadn't stopped grinning all day.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:55
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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I loving hate it when reality, time and loving time again, proves my tankie instincts correct Why just last time it was Evo, now this
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Dec 13, 2019 20:55
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Another part of the problem w/r/t Brexit and Labour being "divisive" is that Labour just did not cut through media confusion and so many people don't understand the situation: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/13/things-cant-get-worse-wrexham-turns-tory-amid-welsh-labour-losses quote:Evans’ family has run a butcher’s business since 1911 – even longer than Labour has held Wrexham. He has voted Labour in the past but said: “I didn’t believe in Jeremy Corbyn’s policies – his changes to public services went too far. We’d have gone backwards. Wrexham has been Labour for too long. We need a change. Things can’t get worse.” This man is going to be in for a shock when he realizes that yes, things can get tremendously worse, once the NHS is shut down, tariffs on his meat are reintroduced and the United Kingdom technically ceases to exist with Scotland's secession. This one guy is probably a bit thick, but it does seem that a tremendous number of voters simply did not understand what was at stake. I think before any kind of "policy re-alignment", Labour needs to figure out what the hell to do about informing voters of the issues on a basic level. Sturgeon and the SNP seem to have done a better job of it at any rate and the people of Scotland are voting like they understand what's at stake.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:55
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OwlFancier posted:I wonder if the european nations killing each other militarily or themselves economically causes more deaths in the long run? If we were in 1901 the answer is yes 2019 nein.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:55
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winegums posted:https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1205557632712544261 Tbf I was very much making the kinnock face last night. I now understand the origin story trauma of the blairites even if I don't accept their politics. Josef bugman posted:Went to the protest near number 10, unfortunately loads of SWP bastards. You are a bloody champion
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Dec 13, 2019 20:56
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ronya posted:maybe you aren't, but I do think HorseLord is Wrong dumbass. I'm saying run black panther community support programs to build a mass base. that's explicitly what i said At the moment yeah labour pulls in £45m and spends £45m. but they spend that £45m on stupid dumb poo poo that doesn't work. there is no reason to believe that redirecting it to things that are actually proven to work is a bad idea
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Dec 13, 2019 20:57
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Factor_VIII posted:The Entente Cordiale was signed in 1904 in order for France and Britain to ally against Germany, so the normalization of Franco-British relations predates their acquisition of nukes by decades. The European project on the other hand was created in the aftermath of WWII in order to ensure that such a European war would never happen again between any state therein. During the Suez Crisis the French PM actually proposed a Franco-British Union with Elizabeth II as Head of State. Which is just so loving wild.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:58
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Realistically Labour's in a position where 'the old ways' have been conclusively shown not to work. I think basically the youth(?) of the party need to assert themselves to a fuller extent since the middle-aged gen-x blairites are about to attempt take the power back. Basically I think you need to get a bunch of internet debate bros to crush them with facts and logic. I'm only slightly joking. A kinder politics doesn't work, it was a mistake to play defence the whole time, you need to start throwing edgelord gamers on question time who are actually able to posture and project strength and make their opponents look weak and stupid.
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Dec 13, 2019 20:59
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Some rear end in a top hat at work said “thank god Corbyn didn’t get in, hate the guy” Asked them to explain what exactly they hated about him and they snorted as if it was obvious. Pressed them, no answer This is it then, so many hate Corbyn, because ?????? it’s the media
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Dec 13, 2019 21:00
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SpaceDrake posted:Another part of the problem w/r/t Brexit and Labour being "divisive" is that Labour just did not cut through media confusion and so many people don't understand the situation: i would be hesitant to take any small business owner's claims at face value especially one that inherited his shop lol
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Dec 13, 2019 21:00
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forkboy84 posted:During the Suez Crisis the French PM actually proposed a Franco-British Union with Elizabeth II as Head of State. Which is just so loving wild. Churchill wanted to do this at one point as well iirc
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Dec 13, 2019 21:02
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Pochoclo posted:Some rear end in a top hat at work said “thank god Corbyn didn’t get in, hate the guy” Gets so much more infuriating when that happens with engineer types that love to paint themselves as "I am a perfectly rational, fact driven robot"
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Dec 13, 2019 21:02
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I might suggest toxic masculinity as an element in both cases.
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Dec 13, 2019 21:03
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OwlFancier posted:I might suggest toxic masculinity as an element in both cases. Oh, so you hate men now do you? Reverse sexism. Femnazi's wrecking the joint
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Dec 13, 2019 21:04
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So. Any murmurs about leadership succession?
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Dec 13, 2019 21:04
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Starmer, RLB and Thornbery are the bookies favourites, in that order
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Dec 13, 2019 21:05
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Zakutambah posted:Oh, so you hate men now do you? I mean yes and it's definitely part of why I like corbyn. A lady on canvass told me he's popular with some of the women's groups she's part of too.
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Dec 13, 2019 21:06
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Factor_VIII posted:The Entente Cordiale was signed in 1904 in order for France and Britain to ally against Germany, so the normalization of Franco-British relations predates their acquisition of nukes by decades. The European project on the other hand was created in the aftermath of WWII in order to ensure that such a European war would never happen again between any state therein. Tijuana Bibliophile posted:*studies 4 centuries of continental political-military history* Raising the stakes so that there can't be a Great European War without London and Paris disappearing in a flash is more likely to have put the dampers on any ambitions to that end. As with anything like that it only works right up until the moment that it doesn't, but it's worked for 70 years, while leaving the British and French to take out their aggression on non-European powers without any such capacity.
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Dec 13, 2019 21:06
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HorseLord posted:So. Any murmurs about leadership succession? BBC world service this morning was pressing pretty hard on the "why doesn't he immediately step down" angle, but all murmurs seem to be saying he's going to wait until the start of 2020.
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Dec 13, 2019 21:06
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Small business owners abuse workers to a degree that mega corps could only dream of doing. In ways that are straight up criminal. In a system with laws already shaped to serve the business owners. But workers are afraid to report them because it does them no good if the company gets slapped with a fine a year after they were terminated for not being a team player. "Why don't you be a dearie and show up 45 min early to prepare the shop for opening, and on your way home maybe drop off these receipts for us"
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Dec 13, 2019 21:06
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marktheando posted:Starmer, RLB and Thornbery are the bookies favourites, in that order Googling the second and third things you named gets me a company and a town. please speak english
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Dec 13, 2019 21:07
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Rebecca long_bailey and emily thornberry
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Dec 13, 2019 21:08
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forkboy84 posted:During the Suez Crisis the French PM actually proposed a Franco-British Union with Elizabeth II as Head of State. Which is just so loving wild.
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Dec 13, 2019 21:08
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OwlFancier posted:I mean yes and it's definitely part of why I like corbyn. A lady on canvass told me he's popular with some of the women's groups she's part of too. I'll be honest, he comes across as completely likable in all respects. The hate towards has always struck me as weird. Looks like a grandad that likes to potter about the house, letting you help him in the garden and with his jams.
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Dec 13, 2019 21:09
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