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Also whilst we're leery of trusting them, the mere fact the tories have to make big spending pledges at all shows the last few years were absolutely not wasted. The overton window has moved. They may well try to move it back (though it's telling that even many melts are saying the economics are okay we just need to be socialist racistly) but we have made progress, and we have a fighting chance to keep making it or at least holding steady. E; in 315AD the Romans abolished crucifixion. Ms Adequate fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Dec 14, 2019 |
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Dec 14, 2019 22:01
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OwlFancier posted:I know we liked to say that jeremy corbyn was running the government from the opposition benches half the time but this is getting silly. Ten years from now and Corbyn will echo Thatcher when he says "Johnson was my biggest success" 
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Dec 14, 2019 22:03
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CGI Stardust posted:i just don't know any more. he'll be branded the worst leader of Labour for a long time, yet still have changed the politics of the country in a way that, say, Kinnock didn't It's only true if we win the next battle. I'm really curious about the leadership contest.
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Dec 14, 2019 22:04
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If Labour policies actually managed to pull the Tories left in terms of public investment that's good. But its incredible that they can do a complete 180 from "austerity good, national credit card, no money" to "gently caress it let's just spend" and nobody will bat an eyelid while Labour get monstered for suggesting that maybe we shouldn't be burning everything down.
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Dec 14, 2019 22:04
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With only a 1.2% lead in gained vote share, they have to be making GBS threads themselves just a little bit. Once they #GetBrexitDone where is the support going to come from? They'll have to create a new crisis, or stand on a record of service improvements
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Dec 14, 2019 22:07
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Random Integer posted:But its incredible that they can do a complete 180 from "austerity good, national credit card, no money" to "gently caress it let's just spend" and nobody will bat an eyelid while Labour get monstered for suggesting that maybe we shouldn't be burning everything down. Ms Adequate posted:Ten years from now and Corbyn will echo Thatcher when he says "Johnson was my biggest success" Azza Bamboo posted:It's only true if we win the next battle. I'm really curious about the leadership contest. CGI Stardust fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Dec 14, 2019 |
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Dec 14, 2019 22:08
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Ms Adequate posted:Also whilst we're leery of trusting them, the mere fact the tories have to make big spending pledges at all shows the last few years were absolutely not wasted. The overton window has moved. They may well try to move it back (though it's telling that even many melts are saying the economics are okay we just need to be socialist racistly) but we have made progress, and we have a fighting chance to keep making it or at least holding steady. Well said, this will get lost but every pound of investment we wring from the bastards is a small victory.
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Dec 14, 2019 22:09
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Have there been any good discussion programs on the election on Radio 4 or the world service? Looking for something interesting to listen to rn
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Dec 14, 2019 22:10
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I'm also a little curious about how Brexit will play into this. All signs were that it'd blow a big hole in the government's spending plans.
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Dec 14, 2019 22:10
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It's not that weird, the idea that austerity is necessary only survives because people keep saying it, if both parties pivot to saying the opposite then who's going to say otherwise? And it's Labour that have lead the charge on that. The only slightly weird thing is that there's going to be limited coverage of the tories nicking labour's platform but that's only really weird if you don't believe that the press reports entirely on what the government says uncritically. Darth Walrus posted:I'm also a little curious about how Brexit will play into this. All signs were that it'd blow a big hole in the government's spending plans. I suspect they're gonna borrow into oblivion, assuming the chancellor doesn't kill boris 
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Dec 14, 2019 22:11
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Debbie Does Dagon posted:With only a 1.2% lead in gained vote share, they have to be making GBS threads themselves just a little bit. Once they #GetBrexitDone where is the support going to come from? They'll have to create a new crisis, or stand on a record of service improvements You say that when the Tories just won a campaign built around an incredible degree of misinformation & avoiding scrutiny. When Brexit is done there will still be Others to blame and a media machine to help blame them. The Tories themselves will be blameless. Ms Adequate posted:Also whilst we're leery of trusting them, the mere fact the tories have to make big spending pledges at all shows the last few years were absolutely not wasted. The overton window has moved. They may well try to move it back (though it's telling that even many melts are saying the economics are okay we just need to be socialist racistly) but we have made progress, and we have a fighting chance to keep making it or at least holding steady. Curious how much of this new spending will be in the same style as the Grayling ferry contract...
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Dec 14, 2019 22:14
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A certain other oafish nationalist also promised investment, and then simply didn't do any, but his followers all believe he has because reasons. That said, Boris doesn't have a cult of personality, so who knows. I'll believe it when I see any.
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Dec 14, 2019 22:15
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Oh dear me posted:Yes. I was in a 1980s Leicester housing co-op when they were neutered by the Housing Corporation using ronya-esque reasons ("Whoops, you accepted a bit of public money for development and this totally means we need to control every aspect of your co-op, but don't worry! You can still come along and approve the paid staff's reports"). you might recall a certain major national issue on which members had overwhelming and strong views but were notably unable to push through any of it for two years, nor through the e-democracy framework in the shadow party... the NPF was never the block there. On that issue it was more, not less, responsive to the views of members the left has equal reason to the right to want to be able to machine carefully-worded positions to be acclaimed spontaneously by the membership - four years into party power it is especially clear that the party left doesn't have a consensus on which goals are must-haves and which ones can be horse-traded for electability ronya fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Dec 14, 2019 |
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Dec 14, 2019 22:16
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Yeah it's more likely that the Tories will just say they did good policies but actually not do them. Like the
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Dec 14, 2019 22:17
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Though it has been infuriating watching a genuinely good man get monstered every day for years, and though the same hacks are now running their ‘As a professional street-shitter, I can tell you voters were deeply concerned by the smell of their streets’ thinkpieces... I always got the sense Corbyn himself was less hurt by it than a lot of us were. If this incarnation of Labour has pressed the Tories left a bit by broadening our discourse, that is an unambiguous good. It won’t be enough against the crises we face, but it’s a start and will prevent some harm. My concern would be that instead of chipping away at the received wisdom that the 6th richest country has no money to spend on anything, it will be portrayed as THE BREXIT DIVIDEND. but still
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Dec 14, 2019 22:18
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That said, I still think the economic impact of Brexit is going to be impossible to miss for most people, even if it does get blamed on something else. Bit difficult to claim they did good policies if we've got actual breadlines and/or no medicine.
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Dec 14, 2019 22:20
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Hungry posted:That said, I still think the economic impact of Brexit is going to be impossible to miss for most people, even if it does get blamed on something else. Bit difficult to claim they did good policies if we've got actual breadlines and/or no medicine. they managed it this election after being in power for nine years and food banks everywhere
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Dec 14, 2019 22:22
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I fully expect no money to be spent in this manner, and nobody to constantly hound the government on it. Alternatively, we Get Brexit Done, and then there's No Money Left. The blame for this will be aimed at perfidious Europe. When the media blame Labour for not putting pressure on the government for its various fuckups, I initially got angry at the gall of them given that is their role. But they're right, in the sense that they're loving useless cravel arseholes. Every time someone from Labour is on TV I want them challenging the media for their craven spinelessness, their corruption. We need to go in hard on the lies the tories used (and really, don't hold back on the word lies. Decorum is dead) without ever being challenged. "The BBC always reports what the Tories want to hear" needs to be repeated over and over until it's commonly accepted.
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Dec 14, 2019 22:23
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Debbie Does Dagon posted:With only a 1.2% lead in gained vote share, they have to be making GBS threads themselves just a little bit. Once they #GetBrexitDone where is the support going to come from? They'll have to create a new crisis, or stand on a record of service improvements The support will come from them following through on the exact promise a significant amount of people voted for them for. Once people think their vote finally matters, they'll want it to keep mattering.
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Dec 14, 2019 22:30
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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Hungry posted:That said, I still think the economic impact of Brexit is going to be impossible to miss for most people, even if it does get blamed on something else. Bit difficult to claim they did good policies if we've got actual breadlines and/or no medicine.
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Dec 14, 2019 22:36
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Debbie Does Dagon posted:With only a 1.2% lead in gained vote share, they have to be making GBS threads themselves just a little bit. Once they #GetBrexitDone where is the support going to come from? They'll have to create a new crisis, or stand on a record of service improvements The Iran war will win them the 2024 GE
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Dec 14, 2019 22:41
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ronya posted:for Clark, the recommendation is PR What is this "bone-headed resistance to PR"? By whom, Labour? Is that true; why would someone resist PR... as opposed to, I dunno, anything else?  punk rebel ecks posted:You can saw A LOT about the American Left, but at the very least the American Left has a relative solid coalition behind it. In contrast it seems that the English Left doesn't appeal to anyone besides youth and people in the big city. What's this American left coalition? Honest question. There aren't really any labour unions in the US; workers and poor people mostly voted for Trump; but there are... urban liberals? Who you just said don't count?
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Dec 14, 2019 22:46
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 I would like to congratulate Jeremy Corbyn for winning the argument. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 14, 2019 22:50
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jaete posted:What is this "bone-headed resistance to PR"? By whom, Labour? Is that true; why would someone resist PR... as opposed to, I dunno, anything else? We had a referendum about changing the voting system in 2011 (which was about preferential voting instead of proportional voting, but...) and a lot of the country has very strong feelings at the moment about results of referendums settling things for "a generation". (Fun sidenote: Labour was the only party to take no official position in this referendum)
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Dec 14, 2019 22:54
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jaete posted:What is this "bone-headed resistance to PR"? By whom, Labour? Is that true; why would someone resist PR... as opposed to, I dunno, anything else? FPTP has historically favoured Labour, especially the Labour left e.g. from the CLPD's own description text of itself quote:CLPD will sometimes promote seemingly non-democracy issues such as the significant extension of public ownership, defending the welfare state and the first-past-the-post electoral system (PR would mean no majority Labour Governments). All such policies derive from our commitment to socialist values and socialist advance.
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Dec 14, 2019 22:57
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ronya posted:you might recall a certain major national issue on which members had overwhelming and strong views but were notably unable to push through any of it for two years Yes, and I recall Labour leaders ignoring constituencies when they had more power, too. I'm not suggesting improving participatory democracy because it will always lead to my faction winning, but because it is a good thing in itself. It gives members a real say, and local party meetings an educational function and a better purpose than approving the minutes of the last meeting and arguing about conference expenses.
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Dec 14, 2019 22:58
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The Labour Party is not the be-all and end-all of socialism, so saying 'PR would deny us a majority' as if it rules out socialist coalitions entirely is absolute garbage
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Dec 14, 2019 23:00
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jaete posted:What is this "bone-headed resistance to PR"? By whom, Labour? Is that true; why would someone resist PR... as opposed to, I dunno, anything else? It's a combination of 1. PR is traditionally bad for Labour in terms of seats as in previous elections Labour votes were concentrated in they aren't any more, so Labour wouldn't lose out in a PR system at the moment 2. The problem that it's difficult to go to the electorate who is suffering under a decade of austerity and loathes parliament because it can't get anything done and say "hey, you know what would be good? More deadlocked parliaments!"
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Dec 14, 2019 23:03
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I'm somewhat skeptical of PR for a variety of reasons, yes it makes it more likely that we would trend towards bland centrist compromise governments, I also have previously said that for most of recent history it would lead to a con/ukip coalition which sounds absolutely awful. Mostly I think it's a bit of an unknown thing. It would change the electoral landscape a lot and I'm not sure in a good way. The arguments that it would increase engagement in politics exist, and might be true, possibly a long term benefit, but mostly I'm just not convinced it's a particularly good or bad thing in terms of results.
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Dec 14, 2019 23:04
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if the lib dems would kindly gently caress off and stop being vote splitters, this might help.
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Dec 14, 2019 23:07
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Azza Bamboo posted:Poetic and sophisticated I grant you, but it doesn't answer the question. Ronya.txt
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Dec 14, 2019 23:08
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so, ignoring the election result, are we not due a global recession soonish?
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Dec 14, 2019 23:12
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Probably, we usually are.
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Dec 14, 2019 23:12
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Jel Shaker posted:so, ignoring the election result, are we not due a global recession soonish? because capitalism makes no sense except number go up watch brexit bring in a booming age
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Dec 14, 2019 23:13
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jaete posted:What is this "bone-headed resistance to PR"? By whom, Labour? Is that true; why would someone resist PR... as opposed to, I dunno, anything else? PR will kill both the Labour Party and Conservative Party as we know them. They're artificially broad churches that will splinter if/when we get PR. Too many see maintaining the current brand names as more important than the underlying philosophy/politics.
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Dec 14, 2019 23:14
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What are people's plans for their own participation in the movement should we end up with, say... Keir Starmer (inoffensive enough bloke but an uninspiring middle-management Remainiac who will be torn limb from limb as a Liberal Elite); Jessflips (best mates with a Tory so unlikeable even the Tories realise he's electoral poison, general fuckwit), or; Yvette 'would've won a supermajority' Cooper... leading the party? I recognise the value in hanging tough, fighting for socialist & environmentalist ideals in this party that's supposed to be ours. But if I'm honest I doubt I've got the strength to hack it. Pouring my money and limited energy into promoting another centrist cuckoo-Labour with no answers to our problems and a leader that has smeared me as an antisemite lefty thug who Is More Responsible For This Than The Tories, Actually feels unappealing. I'd have to really consider dropping back and applying my feeble pressure in other ways when I can.
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Dec 14, 2019 23:20
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I'd stick around if jessflaps or some other melt was elected, but I wouldn't be actively doing much to support them. That said, I'd be really sad if one of them actually got elected, and I hope the membership are too lefty to let it happen, even with the current defeat.
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Dec 14, 2019 23:23
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i think anyone who was vocally pro remain or second referendum has had their chances killed
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Dec 14, 2019 23:24
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I don't know, it depends on what membership means any more. If we still have an effort to retain control of the party I will keep it and vote, if not... Is there much point? I don't have another campaign in me either way, this one took months of progress of my mental health. I am not confrontational enough to operate in that environment.
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Dec 14, 2019 23:24
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jaete posted:What's this American left coalition? Honest question. There aren't really any labour unions in the US; workers and poor people mostly voted for Trump; but there are... urban liberals? Who you just said don't count? Ethnic and Religious Minorities, women, youth, and urban.
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