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punk rebel ecks posted:So Corbyn and his legacy are ruined now right? Not at all, Corbyn is legit going to be remembered as one of the greatest small-l leaders the UK has ever seen. Before Corbyn the Labour party, historically the most meaningful and looking forward most useful, force for decency and kindness in the UK was a defanged tool of capital. It was much worse than the Lib Dem party say because it wasn't just another party obediently serving the rich, it was the left wing party now obediently serving the rich (this is something scum like ummuna and berger don't grasp, blair was welcomed to the international billionaire pedophile elite not because of his policies but because his position blocked lefty policies being able to happen, by going cuk they have no similar value). Corbyns legacy is us, it's leftys who because the Labour Party has empowered the membership now have a vehicle to influence the power structure and a will to power that basic decency isn't an insane idea. If we don't do anything with that then yeah Corbyn has no legacy but cards on the table I think we will if we choose to.
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Dec 15, 2019 23:57
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Jose posted:may shoudl have compromised sure but since her opposition were basically 2nd referendum or nothing why should she? as she herself said the people voted for pain Prior to her trying to crush the saboteurs, there was a huge amount of people on the opposition who were publicly saying to respect the referendum result. She could and should have done more to extend an olive branch at that point. That said, none of us can ever truly know what was said and done behind the scenes at Westminster. I just dont think its fair to demonize Labour for functioning as the opposition in a situation in which that is literally their purpose, and representing the 48% of the country that didn't vote for leave. Jose posted:i'm kind of drunk and real angry sorry everyone Its times like this where I wish that I enjoyed drinking 
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Dec 15, 2019 23:58
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Guavanaut posted:The problem with the left is when it does lawnorder authoritarianism it can sometimes do it so 'well' that everything gets poo poo for everyone until even the Tories are winning points by pointing out how harsh they're being. So with that we shut down debate and mark another valuable vote winning topic as forbidden? Come 2024 we can all stand on the doorstep saying "I'm sorry to hear about the junkies using your bin store as a shooting gallery, but we don't have any plan to deal with that because if we did it would be too effective". Remember that hackneyed line "tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime"? Everybody who hears it thinks they know which part is the loud bit and which part is the quiet bit. It is possible to have a position which both appeals to the localised, immediate desires of a voter and also serves an underlying radical left wing agenda. Carborundum posted:I think there are reasonable things you could do to appeal to working class people in towns and cities in the north, we know this because they voted for Labour in 2017. But I have literally no idea how you would even being to appeal to rural Tory strongholds (which i care about because that's where I spend all my time). Is there the faintest hope for Central Devon or Mid Sussex or North Suffolk to go red in my lifetime? With rural communities, the big thing for them is going to be farming. What's going to happen to farming over the next 5 years is it's going to get held down on the floor and hosed to death. There are grain farms in the states with fields the size of Devon, and the great shield of EU agricultural policy which has protected our farmers from that competition for a generation will be cast aside. The tories aren't going to step in with replacement subsidies because they'll have 99 other problems to spend the money on including a whole range of post-industrial northern constituencies to consolidate. That opens up a plausible angle for labour. Local manufacturers buying from local farmers employing local people. Cooperatives and local procurement policies like the much vaunted Preston model.
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Dec 15, 2019 23:58
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ThomasPaine posted:same since the result lmao Same, still trying to stay away from online arguments with people on Facebook who still won’t believe the NHS is about to get a rogering which is hard when I’m drinking Also fallen out with several family members because they voted against my little boy being able to get healthcare that, if he gets significantly ill, I won’t be able to afford. Principles. Not always easy.
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Dec 16, 2019 00:00
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FiftySeven posted:Prior to her trying to crush the saboteurs, there was a huge amount of people on the opposition who were publicly saying to respect the referendum result. She could and should have done more to extend an olive branch at that point. That said, none of us can ever truly know what was said and done behind the scenes at Westminster. I just dont think its fair to demonize Labour for functioning as the opposition in a situation in which that is literally their purpose, and representing the 48% of the country that didn't vote for leave. i think what makes me genuinely angry is that the same wreckers who spent 2 years briefing to the press that helped cause this and celebrated the loss are still largely MPs and trying to convince everyone to go back to their kind of politics. they're also accusing the left of playing purity politics when its shite i know people are unhappy about voting for tom watson as deputy leader but i voted for stella creasy ffs
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Dec 16, 2019 00:00
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Alternatively when people hear tough on crime tough on the causes of crime actually they only hear the tough part and especially nowadays they don't believe labour is going to tackle the causes, just ban everything.
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Dec 16, 2019 00:01
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gently caress sake i normally only get this angry playing FIFA online which is why i stopped doing it
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Dec 16, 2019 00:02
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It'll be interesting to see what happens when meetings and whatnot start up again next year but it seems like most Labour people round me and angry and want to get involved despite everything. The big problem the Labour right have is that they've spent so long making GBS threads on Corbyn and the left personally but haven't made any effort to build up their own structures or some sort of credible plan for how we win back the ex-industrial areas other than "we need to listen to the working class" i.e. get more racist.
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Dec 16, 2019 00:03
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Jose posted:gently caress sake i normally only get this angry playing FIFA online which is why i stopped doing it It’s probably a pretty normal reaction this soon. Just ride it out, man, and vent. Don’t think there are many people in this thread that aren’t feeing very similar.
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Dec 16, 2019 00:04
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Jose posted:i think what makes me genuinely angry is that the same wreckers who spent 2 years briefing to the press that helped cause this and celebrated the loss are still largely MPs and trying to convince everyone to go back to their kind of politics. they're also accusing the left of playing purity politics when its shite Yeah, the amount of people I see advocating for Jessflaps is terrifying. I don't know who's good, which is more terrifying. I have a decent idea who's bad, but other than Abbott, McDonnell, Skinner & cos I have no idea which if any of the remaining incumbent, and new, Labour MPs are decently socialist or not.
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Dec 16, 2019 00:05
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Jose posted:gently caress sake i normally only get this angry playing FIFA online which is why i stopped doing it Its fine to be angry about this, but I would say be angry at the people who truly deserve it. Be angry at the ERG, VoteLeave, be angry at Farage, be angry at the right wing press, be angry at the lib dems, be angry at the melts, be angry at the labour leadership if you think they deserve it. Dont be angry at people who were rightfully trying to protect their lives, their loved ones and their livelyhoods which will be ruined or endangered by leaving the EU. They were right to fight it, as were the MP's who have constituencies which would be horribly effected by the loss of trade and jobs that come directly from the EU.
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Dec 16, 2019 00:07
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I am once again entirely happy to listen to jose scream about the loving liberals.
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Dec 16, 2019 00:07
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quidditch it and quit it posted:Same, still trying to stay away from online arguments with people on Facebook who still won’t believe the NHS is about to get a rogering which is hard when I’m drinking I'm loving terrified of dying of diabetic ketoacidosis lol, great way to go I hear
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Dec 16, 2019 00:08
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FiftySeven posted:Its fine to be angry about this, but I would say be angry at the people who truly deserve it. Be angry at the ERG, VoteLeave, be angry at Farage, be angry at the right wing press, be angry at the lib dems, be angry at the melts, be angry at the labour leadership if you think they deserve it. Dont be angry at people who were rightfully trying to protect their lives, their loved ones and their livelyhoods which will be ruined or endangered by leaving the EU. They were right to fight it, as were the MP's who have constituencies which would be horribly effected by the loss of trade and jobs that come directly from the EU. I'm absolutely not angry at leave voters I go to the match and sit next to one every time and we have perfectly cordial politics talk when they happen despite him being a boomer.
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Dec 16, 2019 00:13
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it's over, we hosed it, it'll be a single party managed democracy until the seas rise now tbh. the tories have won for keeps. time to stop worrying so much about electoralism and actually get active outside of the labour party imo. as people have been saying for years. i highly recommend that aditya article in the guardian from yesterday. cadres are where it's at.
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Dec 16, 2019 00:15
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ThomasPaine posted:I'm loving terrified of dying of diabetic ketoacidosis lol, great way to go I hear Honestly man, I’m terrified for you. My uncle died because whilst everyone knew he was going to take his own life, including his doctor, there weren’t enough resources to get anything done in time and next thing you know I’m knocking on his door because he hasn’t been answering his phone and his neighbour tells me what’s happened and I collapse on the floor. They don’t care. It’s full on “first they came for the sick but I didn’t speak out because I was alright mate”. This loving loathsome country.
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Dec 16, 2019 00:15
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gh0stpinballa posted:it's over, we hosed it, it'll be a single party managed democracy until the seas rise now tbh. the tories have won for keeps. time to stop worrying so much about electoralism and actually get active outside of the labour party imo. as people have been saying for years. i highly recommend that aditya article in the guardian from yesterday. cadres are where it's at. We're all hosed anyway tbf
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Dec 16, 2019 00:16
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Jose posted:I'm absolutely not angry at leave voters I go to the match and sit next to one every time and we have perfectly cordial politics talk when they happen despite him being a boomer. Well I didn't list Leave voters for a reason! Two of my most respected friends voted leave and I am perfectly capable of having extremely long and informative discussions with them about their right leaning political beliefs, but it helps that they are generally good people rather than bigots. We disagree on many many things but they are never rude, and likewise I am not to them. Its a crying shame that majority of people who are open about their leave votes, are not the same in my experience.
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Dec 16, 2019 00:17
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Jose posted:soft brexit was the obvious loving option when leave won and remainers jsut couldn't loving accept they lost A soft brexit does nothing to curb the ascendency of english nationalism
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Dec 16, 2019 00:18
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Thank you to the posters who took time to reply to my earlier meltdown with some much needed perspective and adviceAsh Crimson posted:A soft brexit does nothing to curb the ascendency of english nationalism At least it seems to be very generational. Here's hoping demographics start shifting to a more compassionate take towards, well, everything over the next few years.
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Dec 16, 2019 00:21
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I dunno why it continues to be a thing but ughgh arguing with people about Corbyns involvement with the GFA/peace process/IRA is the worst. Such an emotionally charged thing to talk about. I have discovered a new one though. Apparently Seamus Mallon claimed Corbyn had nothing to do with the peace process and was just an IRA sympathiser. But I can’t find any evidence of him actually having said it except in quotes by Andrew Neil and the Spectator that I’m hesitant to trust. No articles, no context, no date, but reported by several sources as truth. I don’t really know what to think, as 1. Mallon is still alive, publishes articles and presumably could call bullshit if he wanted to and 2. If Corbyn was the traitorous terrorist sympathiser they’re convinced he is, why did he continue to remain part of the Labour Party for 30 years? Surely they would’ve just got rid of him? I don’t know enough about his involvement to argue effectively, which sucks. Not that it matters anymore I suppose, since he’s stepping down and no longer a threat.
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Dec 16, 2019 00:24
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While the desire of the government and some people not to dent the national pride by refusing to negotiate with terrorists is understandable, you should ask how many people they're willing to sacrifice to that cause? Because the IRA killed a lot of people, even ignoring the people that britain killed trying to stamp them out miltiarily, ending the majority of their campaign saved a lot of lives. Do they also think we should go to war over national pride? If not why do they think we should avoid ending them?
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Dec 16, 2019 00:28
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OwlFancier posted:Do they also think we should go to war over national pride? You know the answer to that one.
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Dec 16, 2019 00:34
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There was a lifetime labour voter from Birmingham who rang in on the James O'Brien LBC show who said he voted Tory because he just could not, on his conscience vote for Jeremy Corbyn because of his IRA associations. It is a failure of imagination on the part of people ITT in understanding that there are still many, many people who are connected to the events of the Troubles in Britain and who see the IRA not as freedom fighters but literal murderous terrorists, not much unlike any other kind we've seen in more recent history. Negotiating with them is always going to come at a political cost even if it's the morally right thing to do for the future peace.
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Dec 16, 2019 00:38
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Octolady posted:2. If Corbyn was the traitorous terrorist sympathiser they’re convinced he is, why did he continue to remain part of the Labour Party for 30 years? Surely they would’ve just got rid of him? TBF Blair tried his loving hardest to get rim of him, McDonnell and Abbott
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Dec 16, 2019 00:41
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MikeCrotch posted:The big problem the Labour right have is that they've spent so long making GBS threads on Corbyn and the left personally but haven't made any effort to build up their own structures or some sort of credible plan for how we win back the ex-industrial areas other than "we need to listen to the working class" i.e. get more racist.
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Dec 16, 2019 00:41
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HorseLord posted:You know the answer to that one. I mean yes some of them will but I think that there's a bit of a disconnect in people's minds between terrorism and other kinds of conflict. The implication of course is that negotiating doesn't stop terrorism, that terrorism is just some unstoppable force we can only respond to by shooting them and more draconian laws. But the IRA is demonstrably a case where negotiation stopped the conflict, or at least greatly decreased the intensity of it, which makes it far more like, say, occupying Afghanistan or Iraq, neither of which are particularly popular? You don't have to like the IRA to want them to stop blowing people up, and if negotiation stops them blowing people up, make them justify not doing it, how many lives is their pride worth? At the very least you're reversing the initiative. Make them justify british deaths, justify sending our children to die for their pride. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 00:41
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OwlFancier posted:Alternatively when people hear tough on crime tough on the causes of crime actually they only hear the tough part and especially nowadays they don't believe labour is going to tackle the causes, just ban everything. That was sort of my point. You have touched on a credibility problem Labour have though. The conservatives can talk about 40 new hospitals and nobody bats an eyelid, but even when the left back up their manifesto with a book of cost analyses it's handwaved away as wishful thinking. It begs the question- why bother? What else can we stand our arguments on besides a financial footing, because that ground is denied us.
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Dec 16, 2019 00:42
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Rakosi posted:There was a lifetime labour voter from Birmingham who rang in on the James O'Brien LBC show who said he voted Tory because he just could not, on his conscience vote for Jeremy Corbyn because of his IRA associations. It is a failure of imagination on the part of people ITT in understanding that there are still many, many people who are connected to the events of the Troubles in Britain and who see the IRA not as freedom fighters but literal murderous terrorists, not much unlike any other kind we've seen in more recent history. What Galaxy O'Brain really should have done on that call is ask that voter who he voted for in 2017, and if it was Labour, what changed between then and now when the same person was in charge of the party. But it doesn't fit Galaxy O'Brain's narrative to do that
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Dec 16, 2019 00:45
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Someone who makes comics for the Viz said he likes the cut of my gib and I'm v proud
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Dec 16, 2019 00:46
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Good point, I do think the sticking issue is that Corbyn simply isn’t patriotic enough in their eyes to be trustworthy, despite the ease Conservatives took allying with a party with current links to terrorists. Being called an “IRA apologist” by a FB friend (not one I was super close to mind) for bringing up English army atrocities is very fun. They’re also convinced that in a UI northern Irish unionists will get purged by republicans through triumphalism. Not sure what happened to make them so paranoid but maybe the election stress has just muddled their brain.
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Dec 16, 2019 00:47
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Vitamin P posted:Well I don't know is "hasn't addressed it" the same as "trying to cover up"? No, turns out those are obviously seperate concepts. What a stupid loving post. Then I apologise for making the silly assumption that you could read. I will instead respond to your initial post by saying you're a loving moron who either refuses to recognise that it was addressed, or a racist oval office who won't accept any response other than blaming P***s for paedophilia existing.
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Dec 16, 2019 00:47
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Rakosi posted:There was a lifetime labour voter from Birmingham who rang in on the James O'Brien LBC show who said he voted Tory because he just could not, on his conscience vote for Jeremy Corbyn because of his IRA associations. It is a failure of imagination on the part of people ITT in understanding that there are still many, many people who are connected to the events of the Troubles in Britain and who see the IRA not as freedom fighters but literal murderous terrorists, not much unlike any other kind we've seen in more recent history. So then why did Thatcher constantly capitulating to them and Major capitulating more to the point of laying the foundation for the Good Friday Agreement mean that Corbyn is the terrorist sympathiser and not the PM who signed a treaty with them after they bombed Brighton?
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Dec 16, 2019 00:50
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On a related note I didn't realise Jessflaps has some Sarah Champion esque views about Asian people until I looked through her Wikipedia page today Also her article in the Observer is a masterpiece of writing a ton of words to say nothing. Like I literally do not know her politics on anything other than "domestic violence and rape is bad" and "I should be prime minister".
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Dec 16, 2019 00:53
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Jose posted:Someone who makes comics for the Viz said he likes the cut of my gib and I'm v proud Barney Farmer?
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Dec 16, 2019 00:53
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Tesseraction posted:I will instead respond to your initial post by saying you're a loving moron who either refuses to recognise that it was addressed, or a racist oval office who won't accept any response other than blaming P***s for paedophilia existing. Oh gently caress off you useless little toerag.
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Dec 16, 2019 00:55
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quidditch it and quit it posted:Barney Farmer? Yeah
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Dec 16, 2019 00:57
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I think Glasgow is the only city in the UK where you can say 'corbyn supported the IRA' and a sizable part of your audience will say 'good lol' and I miss it for real
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Dec 16, 2019 00:58
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Tesseraction posted:So then why did Thatcher constantly capitulating to them and Major capitulating more to the point of laying the foundation for the Good Friday Agreement mean that Corbyn is the terrorist sympathiser and not the PM who signed a treaty with them after they bombed Brighton?
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Dec 16, 2019 00:59
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Vitamin P posted:Oh gently caress off you useless little toerag. Listen you little pissant, your own lack of understanding as to why the left doesn't consistently bring up Rotherham is entirely because you either tacitly endorse the racist narrative of it, or you are so pig-ignorant of how it was addressed that you shouldn't bring it up at all. Sit the gently caress down.
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Dec 16, 2019 00:59
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