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Bundy posted:It needs to be a female leader. There's more than qualified candidates and the supposed progressive party has never had a non white male leader to my knowledge. Edit: the 334 Infantry division was one of the final German military units left to surrender to the Allies in Tunisia at the conclusion of the North African campaign of WW2. Flayer fucked around with this message at 13:06 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 13:03
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Venomous posted:Starmer will win if he appeals directly to Blue Labour can't see it happening, but could be wrong
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Dec 16, 2019 13:08
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gh0stpinballa posted:so a confluence of different factors with corbyn's meek and deferential-to-the-membership style on top brought us to this point. *in this specific regard* i agree with you. leadership is about taking on board different opinions and then making your own decision with those opinions in mind, not just bending wherever the votes take you and improvising as you go along. if he'd stuck firm to his initial instinct to abide by the referendum the membership and the PLP wouldn't have liked it but they'd have learned to live with it. i know i would have. It would've been a lot better. At the very least Boris would've had a slimmer majority, though giving the ERG power might not've been good either. Corbyn was a mouthpiece for Momentum and I think some people are underestimating how visible and toxic that group (some of you guys) was seen to be by many. There were a lot of people in the media talking about it unfavourably already, and then when Corbyn appeared to defer to them for key 'leadership' decisions it really did put the engraving on his political tombstone.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:09
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People massively overestimate the popularity of Starmer among the membership, his main claim to fame was being the Labour face of remaining along with Thornberry, and that is going to hold way less traction now.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:09
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Bundy posted:This is immaterial though. With Brexit and the media wall, it didn't matter. Look at those polls where almost everyone's first answer is "don't like Corbyn". Anyone that's actually met the man and had a conversation with him, or seen the unedited stuff we see, thinks he's a wonderful human being. The vast majority of voters have the usual media lens where Corbyn rarely comes off well, either because he's being criticised or because he's being skewered by a hostile interviewer. In full fairness I don't think it is just the media to blame, but also the psychology of the actual voter. However much we mock "Strong Daddy" fire-the-nukes narratives, there is a cohort out there that wants tough decisive strongmen to discipline and punish the British public; a presidential PM who will rule them like a king. I think it ties into the piece posted however many pages ago about older white males eagerly voting for Brexit and austerity because they think modern society is too weak, feminine and empathetic, and it desperately needs a shock to harden it back up. Corbyn is about as far from that as you can get, and he didn't need the media to get him there. But this just dovetails with the already identified boomer peasant-capitalist problem.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:11
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ronya posted:all of the new gen leaders will be chewed up and spat out by the membership if they pushed the exact manifesto Corbyn ran on in 2017, I think - this is a membership that just three months ago was gleefully voting for stuff too left-wing for the leadership to stomach at a general election. Corbyn really relied on his reputational aura as an old leftie, even if that same thing then hurt him at the ballot box Barbra Streisand sues media over photos.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:13
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NEWS re: succession race
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there is of course the 500lb elephant nobody discusses which is brexit was born largely of an agitated petit booj trying to scrape every last bit of meat off the imperial carcass before the world drowns, and as nice as some of the labour manifesto was notice how this more radical 2019 edition flirted with the idea of reparations and redistributing some of our ill gotten gains to former colonial nations and it was finally a step too far - ultimately in a country that is like 85% white your redistributive policies are only viable if the white english are assured they still take some measure of priority over BAME citizens. the "oh here we go" groans when jez mentioned climate refugees the other week should have clued us to just how far gone and rabid a huge swathe of the voting public is. there's no remedy for this demographics nationalism short of system collapse, a flu epidemic or civil war.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:13
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Rakosi posted:It would've been a lot better. At the very least Boris would've had a slimmer majority, though giving the ERG power might not've been good either. Corbyn was a mouthpiece for Momentum and I think some people are underestimating how visible and toxic that group (some of you guys) was seen to be by many. There were a lot of people in the media talking about it unfavourably already, and then when Corbyn appeared to defer to them for key 'leadership' decisions it really did put the engraving on his political tombstone. If "The left have a motivated base of activists and that's scary" is enough to put people off Labour then we're hosed. The issue is, prior to Corbyn the centrist line was "we spent too much, we need to balance the budget". Now, borrowing for investment is, in moderation, a reasonably centrist policy and we'll have nationalising the rails in the manifesto till it happens. But if we cede the ground and say "we live in the centre", you get the Tories being radical (Thatcher, Cameron) and Labour meekly saying "we'll be a bit less cuntish about it, we promise" and just encourage the right to be radical again. As has already been stated, Boris' manifesto is economically to the left of May's, who herself borrowed from Miliband's desire Ed's being called loony left
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Dec 16, 2019 13:14
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Worth remembering that during the 2016 leadership, Corbyn got 285 CLP nominations, Smith just 53 - with 308 undeclared. I've already had an email from my local chair (and failed candidate) reiterating her (personal) view that it's important the next leader is again from the left. But my CLP are all a bunch of deadset socialists because we're a safe as houses Tory seat. From my memory, during Corbyn vs Smith our vote was something like 80% for Corbyn.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:14
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Being able to distance itself from people like Bastani and outlets like Swawkbox wouldn't be a bad idea either.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:17
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MikeCrotch posted:To be fair Jessflaps also says going back to Blairism is a mistake, though I could not tell you what she wants to do instead. Anything that's named after somebody else is a mistake. I'm in paroxysms for JessPhillipsism-solipsism!
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Dec 16, 2019 13:18
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Phillipsolipsism.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:19
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hot take: whoever Lansman thinks should be leader will be leader, his gotv machine will make sure it happens, and the party changes have lowered the bar enough that any of the new gen will get sufficient nominations. So it's just up to the membership McD was transparently anointing Long-Bailey. Lansman was angling for Pidcock who got a lot of boosts from the LOTO office at Long-Bailey's direct expense, but Pidcock unexpectedly lost her seat. So that does leave Lansman free to kingmake someone else. I don't think it will be Long-Bailey, who is too close to Unite for Lansman to be comfortable, surely? So that points due Thornberry. I don't think it'll be Starmer, who might not even run just to avoid making any enemies that might refuse him a shadow cabinet position
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Dec 16, 2019 13:20
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Guavanaut posted:Phillipsolipsism. I'm jess therefore I am
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Dec 16, 2019 13:20
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why do marxists raise right wing kids https://twitter.com/fieryscot_/status/1206126082837094400
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Dec 16, 2019 13:20
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Pesmerga posted:Being able to distance itself from people like Bastani and outlets like Swawkbox wouldn't be a bad idea either. I keep seeing this but I never see why.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:22
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Bundy posted:I keep seeing this but I never see why. bastani is a plonker with the occasional good take on novara, and the FALC stuff is embarrassing. i don't read squawkbox so can't comment on that.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:24
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Jose posted:why do marxists raise right wing kids Oh huh, didn't know she was Anglo-Desi like me.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:24
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mehall posted:If "The left have a motivated base of activists and that's scary" is enough to put people off Labour then we're hosed. As someone quoted to me earlier, there's a whole lot of distance between Corbyn and the political center. I think a more centrist Labour leader could win an election literally by A) not being a Tory, B) being less cuntishly centrist, C) having one or two (maximum) key socialisms in their manifesto. For one manifesto go for nationalising the railways or something and fully, completely own it and work on it during the campaign. Full socialism now will never work, imo. If Boris moves to the left to consolidate his new constituencies by boosting NHS funding a bit, or whatever else, Labour will have to at least match that and then slip in a single socialist treat to motivate its now already fostered new socialist base. Going completely centrist now will splinter the party and the new motivated base of younger people will split the vote against Labour's favour in future elections, by voting for whatever new party they might splinter off to.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:24
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Well in non politics chat, I’ve managed to persuade my streaming service of choice that I’m actually in the US right now and I’m bingeing Cheers with my sons. It’s lovely and uplifting and I recommend it as an antidote to the election.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:24
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gh0stpinballa posted:bastani is a plonker with the occasional good take on novara, and the FALC stuff is embarrassing. i don't read squawkbox so can't comment on that. I think Novara is pretty decent, Skwawk and Canary are batshit tho.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:24
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Rakosi posted:I'm not ignoring anything that challenges this narrative. Some people have said it's because of corrupt media, some people have said it's because of Brexit. I've heard these and I can see how they contribute. I think Corbyn was the biggest contributor to the crushing Labour suffered. I'm not ignoring you, I'm disagreeing about what was the biggest mistake. Really it was all three together. Corbyn was good when people trusted what he was saying. Manifesto promises are good, when they are believed. But if you have a Brexit policy which, however procedurally clear, came down to ‘we don’t know if it will happen, and are not prepared to say if that will be good or bad’, then neither applies. You are light cavalry that has been order to charge into machine guns, or a rugby player asked to dance; your strengths are irrelevant, and your weaknesses are about to become very obvious. Corbyn might have had a chance of winning if he had said ‘trust me, Brexit will be bad, let’s not do it. Instead, let’s spend the money saved on _these_ good things’. And he probably could have limited the size of the loss with defensive campaigning and an explicitly pro-leave position: ‘unlike the Tories, we actually _will_ spend the money saved by Brexiting on the NHS’. But in reality, the election was lost at the point the suicide note Brexit policy was controversially voted through conference to resounding Momemtum cheers. .
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Dec 16, 2019 13:25
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Bundy posted:I keep seeing this but I never see why. Because Bastani is an idiot, and a confrontational one at that, and Skwakbox peddles misinformation and conspiracy theories. Edit: I can't understate just how bad his book 'Fully Automated Luxury Communism' is. Pesmerga fucked around with this message at 13:30 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 13:25
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Remember that a new leader needs to direct and inspire a mass movement of 500,000 people to rebuild the parallel support structures that made Labour a party in the first place. They also need to do so while dealing with the challenges of a far-right government and multiple national and international crises. This isn't a job for a lightweight, a nonentity, or anyone who doesn't realise the enormity of that task.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:26
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Jose posted:why do marxists raise right wing kids Marxists don't. Affluent Marxists do.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:26
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Tesseraction posted:I think Novara is pretty decent, Skwawk and Canary are batshit tho. ash and butler make novara what it is imo
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Dec 16, 2019 13:32
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Jose posted:why do marxists raise right wing kids
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Dec 16, 2019 13:35
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gh0stpinballa posted:ash and butler make novara what it is imo Agree, but also Michael Walker.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:35
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Guavanaut posted:That's what happens when you're... Living Marxism. Oi, IK, do your duty.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:36
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Guavanaut posted:That's what happens when you're... Living Marxism. you have said the words and summoned me
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Dec 16, 2019 13:36
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Pesmerga posted:Because Bastani is an idiot, and a confrontational one at that, and Skwakbox peddles misinformation and conspiracy theories Can confirm having met him in person, Bastani believes in old school historical determinism - ie communism is inevitable and there's no need to organise to ensure it happens. This combined with Novara mostly being populated by bougie Marxist ideologues makes me fairly certain his whole thing is a grift.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:39
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This 'let's just be a little more centrist' line is what led to the leadership of Kinnock, a man who is most famous for attacking the left and driving them from the party while repeatedly losing elections. The Labour left cannot support any supposed 'moderate' because they will instantly turn on us - look how quicky the attacks on Momentum have started. I think people are forgetting how long it took us to get control of the NEC and HQ. The fantastic video Jose posted about community outreach 'by the many' is exactly the sort of thing we've been advocating and shows it was a Corbynite project, started 18 months ago. That's what we'd be chucking away if we veered right. Well, that, the party, and the next few decades.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:41
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https://twitter.com/Iibdem/status/1206231196348403714?s=19
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Dec 16, 2019 13:41
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Purple Prince posted:Can confirm having met him in person, Bastani believes in old school historical determinism - ie communism is inevitable and there's no need to organise to ensure it happens. What outlet is best in order to avoid that, then? Not meant as a bullish retort but genuinely want something that isn't the Graun or Indie ranting about the loving LEFT.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:41
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gh0stpinballa posted:there is of course the 500lb elephant nobody discusses which is brexit was born largely of an agitated petit booj trying to scrape every last bit of meat off the imperial carcass before the world drowns, and as nice as some of the labour manifesto was notice how this more radical 2019 edition flirted with the idea of reparations and redistributing some of our ill gotten gains to former colonial nations and it was finally a step too far - ultimately in a country that is like 85% white your redistributive policies are only viable if the white english are assured they still take some measure of priority over BAME citizens. the "oh here we go" groans when jez mentioned climate refugees the other week should have clued us to just how far gone and rabid a huge swathe of the voting public is. there's no remedy for this demographics nationalism short of system collapse, a flu epidemic or civil war. but Britain being pretty reactionary makes it difficult also Butler and Sarkar (also Penny) are the bits that make Novara good
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Dec 16, 2019 13:44
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A genuine problem with the Left is its factionalism puts the Right to shame, in a way that it's difficult to really find a good and consistent source. Novara Media is largely decent, as are some publications like Red Pepper, but the Morning Star has its problems with cultural conservatism, Jacobin has its positives too, but can sometimes be a bit too cheerleady, and lol at the New Statesman.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:45
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Oh dear me posted:This 'let's just be a little more centrist' line is what led to the leadership of Kinnock, a man who is most famous for attacking the left and driving them from the party while repeatedly losing elections. The Labour left cannot support any supposed 'moderate' because they will instantly turn on us - look how quicky the attacks on Momentum have started. I don't understand why Kinnock is still lauded by the blue labour types when all he did was make the party unelectable before handing it over to a more cautious moderniser who was the one who really started the momentum for Blair's landslide.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:47
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Tesseraction posted:What outlet is best in order to avoid that, then? Not meant as a bullish retort but genuinely want something that isn't the Graun or Indie ranting about the loving LEFT. Jacobin is ... OK. Its quality has really gone down, but it's still OK. Its sister publication the new Tribune is must-read for knowing what Labour hopes its activists are talking about, in the terms it hopes activists are using.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:47
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Pesmerga posted:A genuine problem with the Left is its factionalism puts the Right to shame, in a way that it's difficult to really find a good and consistent source. Novara Media is largely decent, as are some publications like Red Pepper, but the Morning Star has its problems with cultural conservatism, Jacobin has its positives too, but can sometimes be a bit too cheerleady, and lol at the New Statesman. the New Statesman is for TERF Lib Dem voters
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Dec 16, 2019 13:48
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Tesseraction posted:What outlet is best in order to avoid that, then? Not meant as a bullish retort but genuinely want something that isn't the Graun or Indie ranting about the loving LEFT. There's no real outlet for good content in my opinion, because the demands of a consistent editorial line mess up the sort of depth of content you would want on the left: you might be better off finding some journalists / academics you like and following their blogs. E: It might be a cool project to work on collating these types of blogs onto some sort of pseudo-platform, if anyone's interested DM me as I am looking for projects to mess around with atm.
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Dec 16, 2019 13:48
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