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I'm really mad you beat me to this.
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Dec 16, 2019 03:02
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ShaneB posted:I'm really mad you beat me to this. It was a rush job I'll admit. If you've got a better edit please post it
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Dec 16, 2019 03:21
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salt shakeup posted:Cube is in the concept stage for Arena https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCw3pD_Zrwc&t=18s absolute lol at cube, which would require either live drafts or functional bot drafters
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Dec 16, 2019 04:08
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salt shakeup posted:Cube is in the concept stage for Arena, so hopefully that's why they have programmed in these old cards. Either way it was a cool event. Lmao @ everyone losing their minds about the decks and being proven wrong by stats though. Fuuuuuck the idea of drafting cube with bots.
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Dec 16, 2019 04:11
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At this point it's gotta be intentional, right? Wotc for whatever reason (such as protecting FNM drafts) doesn't want person to person drafting on Arena.
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Dec 16, 2019 04:25
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Is there somewhere/somehow I can place a bet on Disney buying Hasbro?
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Dec 16, 2019 04:27
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Tubgoat posted:Is there somewhere/somehow I can place a bet on Disney buying Hasbro? The stock market
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Dec 16, 2019 04:28
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The Clowner posted:It was a rush job I'll admit. If you've got a better edit please post it Less exposure on the Maro pic and it’ll be perfect
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Dec 16, 2019 05:58
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Rinkles posted:At this point it's gotta be intentional, right? Wotc for whatever reason (such as protecting FNM drafts) doesn't want person to person drafting on Arena. I mean, yeah, obviously? They’ve clearly decided that the downsides of person to person drafts (need to wait for 8 drafters, need to have a clock ticking on your pick) are worse than the downsides of bot drafting. I still think asynchronous drafting is the way to go (you get packs from real people, but there’s no wheeling and the left passing packs and right passing packs are from separate groups of people). Eternal does it this way and it’s great.
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Dec 16, 2019 06:40
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i am fairly confident that wotc has no investment in bot drafting other than they dot have the technology to not gently caress up live or asynch drafting. i'd also be willing to bet they've devised some insane scenario where players collude and make a shitload of different accounts to free roll draft.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:01
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rabidsquid posted:i am fairly confident that wotc has no investment in bot drafting other than they dot have the technology to not gently caress up live or asynch drafting. i'd also be willing to bet they've devised some insane scenario where players collude and make a shitload of different accounts to free roll draft. Earlier this year when Gush and Gitaxian Probe were strangling Pauper, people were win trading in the competitive Pauper leagues on MTGO. Check out this deck that 5-0ed: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/pauper-constructed-league-2019-05-22#tayatary_- Obviously this is not a legitimate result. 5-0 won around 4x an entry fee in prizes, so if two people intentionally matched with each other and one went 5-0 and one went 0-5, they'd profit. Of course if they 5-0 a bunch, people would loving notice when they start racking up trophies and getting nonsense decklists like this posted. Why did they use a nonsense decklist instead of, you know, building an actual deck for  ? Who knows. This went on for like two months, where you just could not play the competitive leagues outside of specific hours because there both weren't many people queuing up, and also 90% of the time you'd get matched and the 30 second timer would elapse or the opponent would cancel matchmaking, dropping you back in the queue to do it over again. Then they merged the friendly and competitive queues into one so it would be harder for people to match in the queue, though there's rumors it's still happening.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:23
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I understand why they would see it as a low priority issue. If bots are bad and don’t take cards they should, then the power of Limited decks will be higher and certain archetypes more supported. But that’s the same for everyone. Everyone is getting decks out of the same system. In theory, having higher variance higher power decks would keep the win/loss rates more neutral. The percentage of players who can consistently win is smaller, but so is the percentage of players who consistently lose. That keeps more people in the format, rather than getting burned by it from losing over and over and giving up on it. That in turn means it doesn’t shrink down to tiny populations of actual wizards. This doesn’t mean they can’t make that whole ecosystem BETTER, but does mean that attacking the problem is a lower priority than other features. And if they’ve demonstrated one thing in 2019, it’s that they have a low capacity for changes and improvements to MTGA.
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Dec 16, 2019 09:25
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Hellsau posted:Earlier this year when Gush and Gitaxian Probe were strangling Pauper, people were win trading in the competitive Pauper leagues on MTGO. Check out this deck that 5-0ed: This only worked because the population was so bad that they needed to match the 4-0 player with the 0-4 one instead of waiting for someone with a similar record, right?
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Dec 16, 2019 09:46
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Jabor posted:This only worked because the population was so bad that they needed to match the 4-0 player with the 0-4 one instead of waiting for someone with a similar record, right? Hopefully? Like we don't actually know.
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Dec 16, 2019 10:18
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MissMarple posted:I understand why they would see it as a low priority issue. Yeah the problem with Arena's bot drafts aren't the fact that they're bot drafts, it's that they're awful. The bots are programmed in such a way that their pick orders determine what archetypes are draftable on Arena. If you're new to an Arena draft format, you should not be looking at the set spoiler to determine what colors are strongest or which synergies are the best. You should instead be asking another Arena player, "hey, what do bots undervalue?" because that's where you get your edge. If the bots are programmed to undervalue a first-pickable card so much that it wheels, you should not take that card early, even if it's better than all other cards in the pack. It leads to a weird metagame where the people who draft a bunch on arena get a big edge on everyone else for just forcing what the bots don't like, even over people who drafted the set a bunch in person. It also tends to lead to 1 deck formats where it's 80% mill mirrors or whatever.
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Dec 16, 2019 10:32
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Bots will always be bad. If bots were actually rewarding opponents why even put games online.
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Dec 16, 2019 14:06
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I always wondered if they prefer bot drafts because bots can aggressively take rares out of circulation whereas in an all-human draft all 24 rares will end up in someone’s collection. I guess it’s a way of making some rares slightly more rare than others too through aggressive bot drafting of dual lands
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Dec 16, 2019 14:31
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thats true, if bots were good why would you ever want to play with a friend
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Dec 16, 2019 14:31
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Hellsau posted:Yeah the problem with Arena's bot drafts aren't the fact that they're bot drafts, it's that they're awful. The bots are programmed in such a way that their pick orders determine what archetypes are draftable on Arena. If you're new to an Arena draft format, you should not be looking at the set spoiler to determine what colors are strongest or which synergies are the best. You should instead be asking another Arena player, "hey, what do bots undervalue?" because that's where you get your edge. If the bots are programmed to undervalue a first-pickable card so much that it wheels, you should not take that card early, even if it's better than all other cards in the pack. It leads to a weird metagame where the people who draft a bunch on arena get a big edge on everyone else for just forcing what the bots don't like, even over people who drafted the set a bunch in person. It also tends to lead to 1 deck formats where it's 80% mill mirrors or whatever. That's pretty cool. Much more interesting than the typical heuristics of what cards are first-pickable etc. that everyone has drilled into them by the 3rd time they've attended a draft FNM.
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Dec 16, 2019 14:51
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Hellsau posted:It also tends to lead to 1 deck formats where it's 80% mill mirrors or whatever. Yeah the bots mostly undervalue red now . Ryan Saxe has been experimenting with a bot he made for drafting on MTGO, not sure what his programming background is but they at least look like actual decks? He put 8 of them in a queue and results look promising? [url] https://twitter.com/rcsaxe/status/1206314169093500929 [/url]
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Dec 16, 2019 14:54
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my current ranked draft is mono R with three syr carah, poo poo’s hosed. also my last two trad drafts between them had four rampart smasher, two fireborn knight, a loch dragon and two elite headhunter
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Dec 16, 2019 14:59
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Chill la Chill posted:That's pretty cool. Much more interesting than the typical heuristics of what cards are first-pickable etc. that everyone has drilled into them by the 3rd time they've attended a draft FNM. It actually sucks because it means that almost all players you'll run into are on the same deck built around having 3+ copies a card you can get for free because the bots don't value it. In eldraine it's secretkeeper, in M20 it was Heart Piercer Bow, in WAR it was spellgorger weird. Draft is supposed to be where you see a multitude of strategies and archetypes because it's baked into the design of the format itself. Arena has somehow managed to turn that into the most parasitic one deck format you can play. Retromancer fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 15:20
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Chill la Chill posted:That's pretty cool. Much more interesting than the typical heuristics of what cards are first-pickable etc. that everyone has drilled into them by the 3rd time they've attended a draft FNM. It's bad, therefore it's good. Star Man fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 15:27
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https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/december-16-2019-banned-and-restricted-announcement No changes.
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Dec 16, 2019 16:44
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The update is that they'll be making more updates. It took Bant Urza ninety minutes to sweep Sultai Urza in the SCG Players' Championship finals yesterday. I guess no one was watching because everyone fell asleep.
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Dec 16, 2019 16:58
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n1tro posted:https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/december-16-2019-banned-and-restricted-announcement i swear to loving god if i play a ton of pauper tron to practice for the format champs and they ban it a week before the tournament i'm going to go completely nuclear and cry
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Dec 16, 2019 18:42
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Nothing is safe and anything can be banned on any Monday. That's only going to work until it doesn't, i.e. when something no one could expect gets banned from a deck where the real problem is the set's marquee over-pushed story card that the execs won't let them admit is a problem just yet.
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Dec 16, 2019 18:54
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Hellsau posted:i swear to loving god if i play a ton of pauper tron to practice for the format champs and they ban it a week before the tournament i'm going to go completely nuclear and cry Tears of joy for a saved format or what
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Dec 16, 2019 18:57
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poor oath of nissaDAD LOST MY IPOD posted:Tears of joy for a saved format or what i mean they should have banned tron in 2016, so if they waited until just before the most important pauper tournament ever to ban it i'll be a little unhappy january 13th though, ban that filth
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Dec 16, 2019 18:57
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Hellsau posted:i swear to loving god if i play a ton of pauper tron to practice for the format champs and they ban it a week before the tournament i'm going to go completely nuclear and cry never take a night off pauper leagues
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Dec 16, 2019 19:00
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Just be like me and only play bad decks.
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Dec 16, 2019 19:02
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https://twitter.com/fireshoes/status/1206250825531744260 lol
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Dec 16, 2019 19:07
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What is even a PTQ at this point. Aren’t there No PTs scheduled after worlds?
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Dec 16, 2019 19:17
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Paul Zuvella posted:What is even a PTQ at this point. Aren’t there No PTs scheduled after worlds? They changed the name again. They're player's tours or something now.
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Dec 16, 2019 19:18
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I think this means they think the format is good and will probably settle for the next two months and then finally ban Oko in the Spring.
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Dec 16, 2019 19:23
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Bust Rodd posted:I think this means they think the format is good and will probably settle for the next two months and then finally ban Oko in the Spring. Oko's banned in Standard. It's loving up all of the eternal formats.
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Dec 16, 2019 19:25
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I think it means they are absolutely re-printing Nykthos in Theros Beyond Death.
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Dec 16, 2019 19:31
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Chill la Chill posted:That's pretty cool. Much more interesting than the typical heuristics of what cards are first-pickable etc. that everyone has drilled into them by the 3rd time they've attended a draft FNM. those heuristics are cool actually. They're imprecise, and vary from week to week as people learn and the metagame develops. if certain strategies get too over/under drafted, things will self correct and those heuristics will change drastically to accomdate it. If you just go by lr set reviews or whatever, that information will go obsolete almost instantly and youre forced to think for yourself bot drafts on the other hand have none of that variability. i drafted a bunch of WAR and realizing i should never touch white or green felt interesting exactly once, then it sucked rear end for the next three months.
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Dec 16, 2019 19:31
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:my current ranked draft is mono R with three syr carah, poo poo’s hosed. So 2-3 wasted picks?
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Dec 16, 2019 20:27
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little munchkin posted:those heuristics are cool actually. They're imprecise, and vary from week to week as people learn and the metagame develops. if certain strategies get too over/under drafted, things will self correct and those heuristics will change drastically to accomdate it. If you just go by lr set reviews or whatever, that information will go obsolete almost instantly and youre forced to think for yourself If the bots at least updated in semi-real time (daily/weekly) based on player pick data then I would still have arena installed. But requiring pick orders to be manually adjusted and it being weeks in between each adjustment is insane.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:28
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