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My 3 worst canvassing experiences in the 2019 election (Canvassars): 1) A canvasser telling a former Labour party member who had cancelled their membership and was unsure about voting due to various factional local politics to "Stuff their loving vote" and calling them a Tory. 2) A local Labour councillor referring to "Murdoch's chink wife". 3) A canvasser with a massive sense of entitlement who would hold up multiple other canvassers to hold her dog and her phone charger while she took a call and poo poo. My 3 worst canvassing experiences in the 2019 election (Residents): 1) Withered lich woman who said floods were caused by too many immigrants (the island is sinking don't you know). 2) Being told about Jeremy Corbyn's plans to draft everyone into a EU army. 3) The amalgamation of the couple of dozen people who didn't like Jeremy Corbyn, but couldn't for the life of them discern why they didn't like him (Hint - several years of the media telling you he's bad). edit: 1339 was the year the first Doge of Genoa was elected. team overhead smash fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 19:05
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The big problem with a nationalism focus for Labour is that the core Labour vote is now ethnically diverse city dwellers. A pivot to nationalism risks that core vote, and doesn't necessarily win you anything - people in Midlands/northern towns are concerned with Brexit and neglect of their local areas but not really with immigration at this point. That hit a high point in 2016 but has dropped considerably since.
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Dec 16, 2019 19:10
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I again point out that localism can be anti nationalist. Because the core of the suggestion is that we do not rise or fall together as a nation, that there are deep divisions between different parts of the country, and the idea that we're all one is false. I think there's a difference between appealing to people's pride and care for the actual place they live in, like the physical space they inhabit and the people and places they coexist with, and appealing to some sense of national pride, civic or otherwise, that they mostly are not a part of.
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Dec 16, 2019 19:14
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OwlFancier posted:appealing to some sense of national pride, civic or otherwise, that they mostly are not a part of. 
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Dec 16, 2019 19:21
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MikeCrotch posted:The big problem with a nationalism focus for Labour is that the core Labour vote is now ethnically diverse city dwellers. A pivot to nationalism risks that core vote, and doesn't necessarily win you anything - people in Midlands/northern towns are concerned with Brexit and neglect of their local areas but not really with immigration at this point. That hit a high point in 2016 but has dropped considerably since. Yup... this is all true Pivoting to a city/large town orientation would be accepting the 2019 dynamic as a permanent one (and it might be - it might not actually be within any leadership's control), essentially just writing off vast swathes of the small former Labour heartland towns in the north and midlands That choice too might not be up to choice itself either, since the membership is also disproportionately city dwellers...
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Dec 16, 2019 19:27
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ronya posted:Pivoting to a city/large town orientation would be accepting the 2019 dynamic as a permanent one (and it might be - it might not actually be within any leadership's control), essentially just writing off vast swathes of the small former Labour heartland towns in the north and midlands This would be a permanent concession of defeat as urban seats do not make up a majority.
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Dec 16, 2019 19:34
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Answers Me posted:I don't understand what Walker brings to the table at all. He just... doesn't seem that bright, tbh. Every time I listen to a show he's on he manages to embarrass himself with something that causes everyone to say 'what the gently caress are you talking about?' Also pretty reactionary about police, military etc. lmao between me posting that and you posting this Walker tweeted about how it's not racist to question freedom of movement poo poo so it is, in fact, me who Is Owned
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Dec 16, 2019 19:35
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Undead Hippo posted:This would be a permanent concession of defeat as urban seats do not make up a majority. yes. Large towns would be the marginal there (and I suppose medium-sized ones as well but you get the idea)
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Dec 16, 2019 19:35
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labour should pivot to normalise bullying tories
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Dec 16, 2019 19:36
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how loving poo poo at his job can he be https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1206644159504891907
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Dec 16, 2019 19:39
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Jose posted:I've seen it suggested on twitter that Alex sobel run for deputy leader mostly because he's Jewish. What's he like? he's a nice guy, self-described socialist, used to be my MP in leeds. well liked by constituents, don't know if he has any melt tendencies. this idea of his is what i was talking about, or the seeds of it at least. cadres. collectivos. parallel structures outside the normal system, patiently rebuilding trust and community ties. a great idea.
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Dec 16, 2019 19:40
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Simon Jenkins writes a good article (although lmao join labour and lick the boot you fuckers) https://twitter.com/singleaspect/status/1206637142216237057
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Dec 16, 2019 19:42
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community ties are absolutely essential now; people need to see that politics can do something for them, and that "hearing their voices" accomplishes something besides getting a totally unsuitable campaign targeted at them in the next election. and if nothing else i don't think there's any other way through the media ed: also, we can expect the media shitshow to continue persuading people that politics is a horrible mess and not worth paying attention to CGI Stardust fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 19:42
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The idea of that not alienating 'traditional' voters requires pivoting to some hardcore nationalism seems like a completely false proposition to begin with. All you have to do is be convincing enough that you don't hate the Queen, want to disband the army, and think that IRA bombers had the right idea. Then issue largely just goes away. Corbyn never managed to clear even that hurdle in the minds of voters (mostly because he probably does believe all those things and was bad at pretending otherwise).
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Dec 16, 2019 19:48
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Tesseraction posted:Simon Jenkins writes a good article (although lmao join labour and lick the boot you fuckers) https://twitter.com/singleaspect/status/1206637142216237057 The melts are coming from inside the party
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Dec 16, 2019 19:48
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One last big burst from my staccato of election static then I'll leave you all in peace for a bit. I did encounter racism and banal nationalism while pestering everyone within arm's reach in Teesside. But I don't think that means the route to a better Britain runs through some sort of national Bolshevism. I mean seriously, what the gently caress?! For every lost soul screaming 'herd them onto rafts, if they die they die, no one wanted them here' from his front door in the whitest bit of Boro, or smalltown pub bore droning on about Prince Andrew being framed by 'that girl who didn't look 14 and knew what she wanted' (and I did get both of these), there were 10 people more like this: 'They're all the same mate' 'Nah, we don't bother with all that' 'I know you're out cos you believe in it, but...*shakes head sadly*' 'I'm a <profession>, I don't do politics' 'We need shot of the lot of em, waste of time'; and at least 5 or so more like this: 'Do you LIKE Corbyn though? I mean how can you like him?' 'Never with that idiot moving the goalposts' 'No but, I know but, I just, it's like, two clowns isn't it, I, uhm, ugh, argh' 'I should vote for you but it's really hard with him. Oh, erm...like...uhh...it's his mannerisms isn't it' We're not getting the lost souls and the pub bores, maybe not even if we sold our souls trying. The Tories are right there wrapped in their foisty old Union Jack, pantomiming the rituals and mouthing the words. Johnson put the wreath flower-side-down in the muck this year and we still didn't get them. The others we can get, I reckon. It's a matter of proving that we're not all the same. That Labour cares and that its plans aren't empty promises, that we aren't just the personal army of the bad man from the papers, descending like crows for the election. As activists we need to stay visible and build our arguments and connections, but we also really need good targeted messaging backing us up at national and CLP levels. I was new to all this stuff. Maybe I was too happy-clappy at times, though I always had more hope than expectation. It took me a while to build an overall trend from the conversations I had with people - it only fully clicked like 'poo poo, our Brexit position bombed here' during GOTV, which is not really when you want to be realising it's gone badly wrong. Partly that was small sample size and probs a bit of denial, and partly it was - to be honest - the guarded and often incoherent way in which people expressed those opinions. Looking back at the things I was worried about at the start: Farage will do a deal with the Tories to gently caress us! This one happened and definitely had a bad effect in Northern seats. Dodgy bar charts and dodgier tactical voting sites Tricky one. Pretty much definitely resulted in a few narrow losses down South. Even the Greens, whom I'd expect to have more sense, got in on this with Molly Scott Cato's utterly ridiculous Unite To Remain shite screwing us in Stroud when she never had a cat in hell's chance of winning. But there were also a couple of seats there where we should probably have stood aside - I was very worried we'd prevent them knocking off Raab and we did. The big Jewish constituencies had huge 'not Tory' votes that ended horribly split (though if you change variables like our Brexit position it's hard to say if the Tories wouldn't have gained back), and embarrassingly the Umunna/Grant dream ticket actually did better than us. I do know that Swinson's declaration that she wouldn't work with Labour meant that they may have essentially been Tories anyway in the event of a hung parl, but...I'd still like to have decapitated Raab. Two more years of shite about AS I actually don't think this had much impact. Even in the seats with big Jewish populations to be terrified by this disgusting poo poo, the vote would prob have been horrifically split on Brexit lines anyway. Up here just about no one gave a gently caress, which is...sort of depressing? The TV media will ignore electoral fairness rules after their complacency last time I mean...this happened basically didn't it? It's hard to determine how much impact it had. But the BBC did everything from splicing in less awkward wreath-laying footage to possibly breaking electoral law about postal votes, with loving up the Neil interviews and spreading literal fake news about Tories getting punched en route. I have to admit I'm taking some grim, unhelpful pleasure in seeing Johnson train his guns on them while they go 'But our programmes  '. If only cos I just hate-listen to Radio 4 and enjoy Drag Race UK, a programme with an apparent weekly budget of five quid and a bulk bag of sequins.I didn't properly pick these dangers in advance: -perceived dithering for ages over Brexit (which wasn't his fault largely) and a poo poo, waffly attempt at selling the position (which, let's be real, was) tanking Corbyn's personal rating. Just passing May's crap deal may have been better in the medium term honestly; -the Tories just basically not campaigning other than one spammed line and deliberate attempts to undermine people's trust in politics with constant lies and evasions. This is actually not a bad play when you have the entire media behind you. Can't make a dementia tax fuckup if you don't publicise any policies - though I think we could have tried to attack poo poo like voter ID, as doing that seemed to work on the right doors? -our manifesto, while it was full of excellent, well-realised policies, was way too loving long unless you're going to boil it down to spammable, easily understood messages then target them at local and national levels with good timing. Which the leadership didn't do. Even for me, a bit of a nerd, it was a pain in the arse trying to get it all. As others have said, we then led with 'free broadband' which I never bothered with on doors because, I mean, listen to the state of it. I know it's a good idea but it just makes you sound like a complete plum on a backdrop of serious, pressing concerns. People actually brought it up to take the piss once or twice. -finally I think it was a bit tougher to get a joyous festival atmosphere going in the freezing cold and dark after two years of limb-deadening Brexit awfulness. It's not rational but there it is. That's what I got in way of retrospective. Hopefully I can learn something from all this for the future, as tiring and anticlimactic as it was. Shogi fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 19:56
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peanut- posted:The idea of that not alienating 'traditional' voters requires pivoting to some hardcore nationalism seems like a completely false proposition to begin with. If you don't actually want to be left wing then people can vote lib dem. Why do we need two lib dem parties?
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Dec 16, 2019 19:59
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So looks like RLB is running for labour leadership with Angela Rayner as deputy. The recent news reports indicates this is what the Tories want and think RLB will be easy to tie to Corbyn and therefore win against. What’s the thread think?
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Dec 16, 2019 20:00
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I'd probably prefer Rayner as leader but I don't know much about long-bailey.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:02
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Regarde Aduck posted:If you don't actually want to be left wing then people can vote lib dem. Why do we need two lib dem parties? If you think those things are a litmus test for describing someone as left wing then we are proper hosed.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:04
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For the people saying that it was Corbyn and Momentum that lost us the election, do you think that the level of turn out we had for canvassing would have happened with any other leader, or do you just think canvassing/ phone banking etc is a waste of time? What about all the people making donations, or joining the party and bringing money and increasing our funding? We won't win by trying to run a campaign like the Tories, funded by a few billionaires and with the media doing advertising and GOTV on our behalf, because both those groups hate us and will continue to hate us unless we bow to their will. Personally I think this time around the ground campaign wasn't managed as well as it could have been, and I think this was partly due to lack of co-ordination between CLPs and Momentum, but that doesn't mean that the energetic activists chanting 'Oh Jeremy Corbyn' are the enemy. The party needs them, especially if we are going to show the country an example of socialism in action.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:07
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Kraftwerk posted:What’s the thread think? I think i don't begin to give a flying gently caress about who the tories want as Labour leader.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:10
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Kraftwerk posted:The recent news reports indicates this is what the Tories want and think RLB will be easy to tie to Corbyn and therefore win against. I think we should not base our decisions on what our enemies tell us they want. And that everyone in the Labour Party can be tied to Corbyn. RLB and Rayner is a great team if they're happy with it.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:11
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What's RLB like politically? Also where's she from? Rayner has the advantage of being northern which I think could help with labour's credibility up here.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:15
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mehall posted:Hell, naming anything nationalised "British <THING>" is nationalism, but I can bet most of you are onboard with calling it British Rail when it gets nationalised again for "nostalgia"  MikeCrotch posted:The big problem with a nationalism focus for Labour is that the core Labour vote is now ethnically diverse city dwellers. A pivot to nationalism risks that core vote, and doesn't necessarily win you anything - people in Midlands/northern towns are concerned with Brexit and neglect of their local areas but not really with immigration at this point. That hit a high point in 2016 but has dropped considerably since. I still feel that there must be something that can appeal to, not the full nazi types, but like softer "fence-sitting" semi-nationalist types. Like you know let's create more British jobs here in the UK, and don't focus on the fact that people other than white British gammons are allowed to do those jobs too. Surely a bunch people would say ok immigrants still bad, but you know what, work is good, more jobs is more important than that. Or new kind of technology, maybe some kind of grant to try out new tech and stuff, creates jobs, new kind of industry, good honest jobs, heavy machinery and poo poo... and don't focus on the fact that these new jobs are also namby-pamby green environmentalist bullshit. Well with e.g. renewable energy the greenness would be kinda obvious  but, again, hopefully "you now have a job and it involves handling many tons of steel and other manly poo poo" would weigh more.Or indeed increase the minimum wage, honest pay for honest work or what was that slogan, don't focus on the fact that the unemployed will get some help too (and the old "hand up not handout" could be a useful slogan as well). Like, I feel that if there are not enough jobs and wages are poo poo and everything is miserable, of course people will easily start hating immigrants and all that poo poo, but surely that hatred could be mitigated to some extent by genuinely trying to get people better wages and jobs, without needing to also make hating immigrants part of that platform. edit peanut- posted:The idea of that not alienating 'traditional' voters requires pivoting to some hardcore nationalism seems like a completely false proposition to begin with. Yep this is a more concise way of putting it jaete fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 20:17
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OwlFancier posted:What's RLB like politically? She's from Manchester and she's very close to McDonnell. If she wins the leadership, then it'll be the closest I think we'll get to John McDonnell being armed.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:17
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Mega Manc dream team does sound promising.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:19
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OwlFancier posted:What's RLB like politically? I’m not a UK citizen but word is she’s McDonnell’s pick for bearing the left wing torch after Corbyn quit. Rayner and her are really close friends and Rayner voluntarily bid to be her deputy to avoid splitting the left wing vote for leadership. Basically they’re she’s young female Corbyn without the historical baggage.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:20
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Kraftwerk posted:I’m not a UK citizen but word is she’s McDonnell’s pick for bearing the left wing torch after Corbyn quit. Still tied to Corbyn though, it'll be interesting to see if she can avoid being seen as CORBYN V2.0 in the seats that Labour lost this time.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:25
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I think a lot of that's gonna be down to her rhetoric, the press is gonna try and paint anyone as corbyn 2.0. Challenge is gonna be trying to cut through that with actually different rhetoric and a different platform, talk more about specific places.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:26
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The question isn't about how good they'll be at campaigning in a general election, weird as that sounds. The question is whether they can direct and inspire a mass movement of half a million people to rebuild its connections with the communities it draws its strength from. Labour needs to actually function as an organisation before it gets its path to power back.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:28
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Miftan posted:Still tied to Corbyn though, it'll be interesting to see if she can avoid being seen as CORBYN V2.0 in the seats that Labour lost this time. Going to quote myself every time this comes up from now on: Appeal is a social construct, it requires a positive environment to be constantly reinforced rather than a set of attributes. Either the next leader has a set of traits acceptable to the ruling class and they get the Miliband treatment from the press or they are like Corbyn and get the Corbyn treatment or we create new means of generating appeal in voters minds. The answer is structural, not just selecting a person. How any successor is seen is not determined by their actual manner, appearance or political positions, it's how all of those things are interpreted and magnified/hidden by the information and social networks we have and can develop. Don't worry if someone is seen as linked to Corbyn, that will be a strength for a huge number of people and because it's still actually a different person if the atmosphere generated around them is positive then they will be treated positively.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:30
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Dec 16, 2019 20:31
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I don't think we should pivot to nationalism but try to explain the progressive policies from a conservative frame of reference, like I was saying with "gently caress businesses that would betray us" "are we not strong enough to take on the corporations" but as I also said it risks coming off as insincere and cringey like when churches put out rap videos that try to inject their faith into appropriated youth culture. "how do you do my fellow patriot. Wouldn't it restore pride in our English heritage if we took back control of the means of production what ho"
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Dec 16, 2019 20:32
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MikeCrotch posted:The big problem with a nationalism focus for Labour is that the core Labour vote is now ethnically diverse city dwellers. A pivot to nationalism risks that core vote, and doesn't necessarily win you anything - people in Midlands/northern towns are concerned with Brexit and neglect of their local areas but not really with immigration at this point. That hit a high point in 2016 but has dropped considerably since. The problem is English nationalism, not British
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Dec 16, 2019 20:34
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The two are fairly similar.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:36
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The papers love that you can make her name say Wrong-Daily and you should be prepared to hear Hugh Dennis make the joke forever
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Dec 16, 2019 20:37
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*extremely leftist voice* labour need to produce a newspaper locally as part of their community organising https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1206659181274652676?s=20
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Dec 16, 2019 20:37
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In many ways the English have appropriated British without the approval of the rest of Britain.
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Dec 16, 2019 20:37
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Azza Bamboo posted:In many ways the English have appropriated British without the approval of the rest of Britain. It's like they're culturally predisposed to doing so I mean Wales and Northern Ireland are literal colonies created by the English Ash Crimson fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Dec 16, 2019 |
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Dec 16, 2019 20:38
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