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dim brain: libertarian socialist? oh, you mean like ron paul? normal brain: the term “libertarian socialist” actually hails from the european anarchist tradition and signified a commitm- glowing brain: libertarian socialist? oh, you mean like ron paul?
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Dec 16, 2019 22:49
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Dec 17, 2019 00:31
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Dec 17, 2019 00:48
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https://twitter.com/elleprovocateur/status/1206265400515874826?s=20
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Dec 17, 2019 01:17
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cory morningstar is a nutjob conspiracy theorist
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Dec 17, 2019 03:13
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gerta is definitely an op tho
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Dec 17, 2019 03:17
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like look at this corkboard wall-level poo poo: http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/2019/09/26/the-manufacturing-of-greta-thunberg-for-consent-natural-climate-manipulations-volume-ii-act-vi/ 
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Dec 17, 2019 03:33
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maybe you should post the rest of the context:quote:The film (trending and recommended on YouTube), emphasizing the urgency of funding “natural solutions”, was paid for by Conservation International and the *Food and Land Use Coalition, with “guidance” provided by Nature4Climate (The Nature Conservancy, We Mean Business, WWF, UN-REDD, et al.) and Natural Climate Solutions. [*Member foundations include ClimateWorks, the David & Lucile Packard Foundation, the Ford Foundation, the Gordon & Betty Moore Foundation, Good Energies, and Margaret Cargill.]
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Dec 17, 2019 03:50
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Venom Snake posted:as one of the converts and thus not fully enlightened on the matter: my question about any form of anarchism as long as iv been politically aware has just been in the anarcho scenario whats to stop a bunch of like minded people from collectively agreeing/consenting to forming a state? if you collectively consent to be governed by a state, then there's no coercion at play, which is fine (this also implies that people should be allowed to disassociate themselves with this state, should they want to do so, at a later time) like the thing to keep in mind is that anarchism does not abhor a state, it just abhors This state, the one that's built on capitalist values and is designed to enforce the capitalist mode of production
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Dec 17, 2019 04:58
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Miyazaki was a participant during the New Left students' movement, iirc as was the earthbound guy
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Dec 17, 2019 05:16
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gradenko_2000 posted:if you collectively consent to be governed by a state, then there's no coercion at play, which is fine Sounds consistent to me; though I was more picturing a situation where say, post-capitalism anarchists would naturally gravitate towards communes while "statist" communists (i guess for example ML's?) would ofc go about the maintaining of a socialist state to "enable" communism. The existence of both in parallel seems perfectly workable from your definition.
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Dec 17, 2019 05:18
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Larry Parrish posted:imho, anarchism is what happens when you're a socialist but havent completely let go of your liberal preconceptions. im aware this doesn't make sense completely, especially for historical anarchism, but for modern ones it seems to fit pretty well. basically that you've decided the system is bad but you havent yet accepted that its complete destruction by any means is the only path forward This isn't exactly inaccurate. Anarchism is rooted in the French Revolution and shares the same underlying Enlightenment values as Liberalism, whereas socialism was either rooted in religious or utopic convictions, or in the case of "scientific socialism" people like Marx were asking what went wrong with the French Revolution and why hasn't liberalism liberated us? Anarchists view the individual as sovereign whereas socialists view sovereignty as something that lays with society. gradenko_2000 posted:like the thing to keep in mind is that anarchism does not abhor a state, it just abhors This state, the one that's built on capitalist values and is designed to enforce the capitalist mode of production No, anarchists do hate all states because it's strictly anti-hierarchical. Anarchists do believe in government but "government" and the state aren't necessarily the same thing. The problem with how anarchists view sovereignty is that self-governance depends too much on reaching some level of mass consensus to reach a common policy, and if people don't like the policy then in principle you can't force them to do what everybody else does because coercion is bad. Socialists recognize that you need to sublimate your will to the popular will in order for government to even be possible at the scale of a country. If you don't fall in with the mass line then you have to be forced to. That might sound like it "bears the seeds of tyranny" or whatever, but at some level it's necessary. How can you have an effective environmental policy when you have a bunch of polities choosing not to go along with it and continuing to pollute because it's what they want? If an anarchist society still has to force people to be copacetic with the communal line, then non-coercive or non-hierarchical principles don't hold up.
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Dec 17, 2019 05:23
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:No, anarchists do hate all states because it's strictly anti-hierarchical. Anarchists do believe in government but "government" and the state aren't necessarily the same thing. To be fair a lot of anarchists recognize that some authority may be necessary as long as that authority can justify itself and is accountable. This is something that frustrates me when I hear arguments from this angle. It's always "oh you naive anarchists don't get that organized force is necessary to suppress the bourgeoisie, read State and Revolution." But when you actually go and read it you see that the kind of state that Lenin was talking about there looks nothing like the states that formed in communist nations, it doesn't match the typical description of a state at all. If you go strictly by Lenin's description of a state then the anarchists in Catalonia technically had a state.
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Dec 17, 2019 05:41
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:This isn't exactly inaccurate. Anarchism is rooted in the French Revolution and shares the same underlying Enlightenment values as Liberalism, whereas socialism was either rooted in religious or utopic convictions, or in the case of "scientific socialism" people like Marx were asking what went wrong with the French Revolution and why hasn't liberalism liberated us? Anarchists view the individual as sovereign whereas socialists view sovereignty as something that lays with society. the reason I make that conclusion is because liberalism has a similar bizarre pathology of the individual, which is why I think people who havent quite abandoned liberalism go towards anarchism. they havent rejected the concept of individual power.
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Dec 17, 2019 05:43
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IWW Online Branch posted:To be fair a lot of anarchists recognize that some authority may be necessary as long as that authority can justify itself and is accountable. Yeah the anarchists in Catalonia did technically have a state. They had prisons too. That's part of my point. An authority that can "justify itself" and "is accountable" is a woo woo dismissal of the necessity of force. Like, any authority can "justify itself" and have a mass base which views it as such. That's not really addressing the problem. If the organizing principle of your ideology has to suppose that there is some exception which depends on a poorly defined criteria for the whole thing to work then you've got a big problem.
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Dec 17, 2019 05:52
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I'd even say that the supposed emphasis on individualism isn't really a core tenant of anarchism. Sure a lot of anarchists were individualists, but just as many weren't. Kropotkin, for instance, leaned pretty clearly towards collectivism. In Mutual Aid he pretty clearly showed nothing but contempt for liberal individualism.
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Dec 17, 2019 05:56
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I just don't see how what you're saying doesn't boil down to, "well anarchists believe in some authority but it has to be good authority." Well, nobody believes in bad authority
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Dec 17, 2019 05:58
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Yeah the anarchists in Catalonia did technically have a state. They had prisons too. That's part of my point. Then I'm kind of left wondering what the big ruckus is between Marxists and anarchists. If we both agree that organized force is necessary for establishing a socialist society, and if we both have the same end goal of a classless, stateless communist society, then what is the major point of disagreement?
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Dec 17, 2019 05:59
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IWW Online Branch posted:Then I'm kind of left wondering what the big ruckus is between Marxists and anarchists. If we both agree that organized force is necessary for establishing a socialist society, and if we both have the same end goal of a classless, stateless communist society, then what is the major point of disagreement? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CbgDqTXwvk
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Dec 17, 2019 06:01
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So we have collectivist anarchists, we have anarchists that will use organized force to defend the revolution, and according to Leninists this counts as a state even though it doesn't really look like any state that's ever existed before. What am I supposed to get from this? I mean does this just come down to the fact that we have different names for things? It that all this is?
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Dec 17, 2019 06:08
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i genuinely don't understand anarchists who think that anarcho-communism can be achieved without like literally centuries of regular-rear end communism first
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Dec 17, 2019 06:16
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So the conclusion here is that anarchists are Trots that are into drugs instead of kids
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Dec 17, 2019 06:17
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it's a scientific analysis of the progression of history idiots, not a bible you can pick or choose from because of your specific morality
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Dec 17, 2019 06:18
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If anarchists and Marxists have really been at each other's throats for 150 years just because they'd rather denounce each other as reactionaries instead of talking like adults and actually understanding where the other side is coming from I'm going to be super pissed.
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Dec 17, 2019 06:20
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IWW Online Branch posted:So we have collectivist anarchists, we have anarchists that will use organized force to defend the revolution, and according to Leninists this counts as a state even though it doesn't really look like any state that's ever existed before. What am I supposed to get from this? I mean does this just come down to the fact that we have different names for things? It that all this is? Welcome to the left, where the entire internal debate is exactly what ideological label you call yourself even though we all agree that capitalism/inequality is the problem
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Dec 17, 2019 06:21
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IWW Online Branch posted:If anarchists and Marxists have really been at each other's throats for 150 years just because they'd rather denounce each other as reactionaries instead of talking like adults and actually understanding where the other side is coming from I'm going to be super pissed. the problem is that anarchism is skipping several interstitial steps to communism, which mostly involves protecting the revolution from reactionary forces - and anarchists have been historically bad at the protecting the revolution part.
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Dec 17, 2019 06:31
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hey have u ever thought that riling people up against petty local tyrants might just be protecting the revolution rear end in a top hat!!!!!
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Dec 17, 2019 06:32
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Al! posted:hey have u ever thought that riling people up against petty local tyrants might just be protecting the revolution rear end in a top hat!!!!! now that's what I like to call a struggle session
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Dec 17, 2019 06:37
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:the problem is that anarchism is skipping several interstitial steps to communism, which mostly involves protecting the revolution from reactionary forces - and anarchists have been historically bad at the protecting the revolution part. tbf I think that comes down to numbers mostly. Anarchist revolutions were always much smaller than communist ones. Even in Spain the anarchists were a minority faction. The revolutionary left is usually in the fringes of politics, only in a few cases in history has it broken into the mainstream, and anarchism is in the fringes of that fringe. Otherwise I feel like we've been over this already. Anarchists are not opposed in principle to using force to protect the revolution. I mean anarchists are so not opposed to using violence to get their way that one even assassinated the president of the USA.
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Dec 17, 2019 06:42
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i think the biggest diff between actual anarchists and marxists (ie not the extremely online types) is entirely around the immediate post-capitalist society. Marxists believe it will have to go through a "low communism" phase where the state remains but in a slightly different form before withering away as we move into actual "high communism", while anarchists believe that you can just dump the state outright without any sort of transitory phase.
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Dec 17, 2019 06:43
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Historical anarchists, specifically the late 19th/early 20th were loving awesome. Anarchists in 2020 unfortunately are not, at least in the US. Blow up some police stations and rob some banks and perhaps I'll respect the ideology more. But anyway like ya'll said, the whole point of dialectical materialism is to analyze history to understand the actions we have to take. Not to pick our faction and begin the secret jutsu technique to do a frame perfect skip of the overthrowing the bougioise stage into the endgame
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Dec 17, 2019 06:50
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Larry Parrish posted:Historical anarchists, specifically the late 19th/early 20th were loving awesome. Anarchists in 2020 unfortunately are not, at least in the US. Blow up some police stations and rob some banks and perhaps I'll respect the ideology more. Oh yeah well when's the last time you robbed a bank? I bet you don't even know how to make a bomb.
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Dec 17, 2019 07:02
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It's not called The Anarchist Cookbook because it teaches you a non-authoritarian way to make a souffle ya fuckers.
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Dec 17, 2019 07:04
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IWW Online Branch posted:and according to Leninists this counts as a state even though it doesn't really look like any state that's ever existed before. Catalonia wasn't that remarkable dude, in general it behaved extremely similarly to the civil war era ussr, poo poo they even tortured people in prison https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2003/jan/27/spain.arts
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Dec 17, 2019 07:07
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IWW Online Branch posted:It's not called The Anarchist Cookbook because it teaches you a non-authoritarian way to make a souffle ya fuckers. This is actually a good analogy as much like anarchism, the anarchist cookbook doesn't work
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Dec 17, 2019 07:09
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IWW Online Branch posted:Oh yeah well when's the last time you robbed a bank? I bet you don't even know how to make a bomb. im p sure the modern version of this is gay teens in south america hacking into banks
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Dec 17, 2019 07:12
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power level rankings 1. anarchism 2. maoism 3. communism
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Dec 17, 2019 07:14
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Dreddout posted:Catalonia wasn't that remarkable dude, in general it behaved extremely similarly to the civil war era ussr, poo poo they even tortured people in prison this owns
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Dec 17, 2019 07:14
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IWW Online Branch posted:Oh yeah well when's the last time you robbed a bank? I bet you don't even know how to make a bomb. A month ago or so at work, some folks robbed a bank like 100 ft away and I didn't even notice. it was like 2 days after the grand opening lmao 
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Dec 17, 2019 07:18
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At any rate what my real problem is as far the USSR goes is not the early revolutionary period, but what came later. There is a point in Soviet history where it becomes clear that any sort of advance to communism has halted and the revolutionary state has become a state in the ordinary sense. What you see in the later period of the USSR is exactly the sort of bureaucracy and officialdom that Lenin railed against in State and Revolution. I'm not an expert on Soviet society so I can't say for sure why this happened, but something clearly went wrong there.
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Dec 17, 2019 07:21
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