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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:The two flagships of anglophone media have covered the events in Hong Kong over 10x more than the other protests around the world combined. And neither of them are government ft owned or controlled in the way that media outlets in China are. Interesting that you stre upset about what you think is propaganda outside of China, when news inside China is all state censored propaganda all the time.
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Dec 18, 2019 04:28
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Dec 18, 2019 04:34
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Can't fathom why American news media would disproportionately report on political unrest in HK, America's 10th largest export market and closely linked with the largest, China. Political unrest that changes on a monthly, sometimes daily, basis and can't be explained simply as economic dissatisfaction, must be a conspiracy of the western hegemon.
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Dec 18, 2019 04:57
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Think there's any truth to the scmp reports of criminal enterprise intentionally spreading swine fever to make money off fire sales? Just government shifting blame?
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Dec 18, 2019 16:28
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There are approximately over 70,000 protests every year in China, it is a little strange that HK gets most of the press.
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Dec 18, 2019 16:43
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Raenir Salazar posted:There are approximately over 70,000 protests every year in China, it is a little strange that HK gets most of the press. Western media got excited when there was a protest against a crematorium in Shenzhen but dialed it down immediately when the authorities caved and stopped its construction. It doesn't play into the narrative that the CCP runs the country like a bunch of cackling supervillians when they are responsive to protest movements that don't involve collaborating with foreign powers to overthrow the current regime.
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Dec 18, 2019 16:50
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Raenir Salazar posted:There are approximately over 70,000 protests every year in China, it is a little strange that HK gets most of the press. Hong Kong is not China, and larger protests in China do get attention from foreign media. It's just not very easy to report on protests against the government in an authoritarian state, who would've thought.
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Dec 18, 2019 18:39
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Historically, it is China's turn to commit genocide and poison the earth
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Dec 18, 2019 18:54
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the unnamed country can only salivate with jealousy
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Dec 18, 2019 22:19
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Kill All Cops posted:Can't fathom why American news media would disproportionately report on political unrest in HK, America's 10th largest export market and closely linked with the largest, China. Political unrest that changes on a monthly, sometimes daily, basis and can't be explained simply as economic dissatisfaction, must be a conspiracy of the western hegemon. The PRC’s dream is that they can reconcile purely by addressing economic dissatisfaction. Based off my limited experience, I would say that a solid majority of the HK population actively dislikes mainlanders. It just so happens that the older and richer HK residents are conveniently defeatists while the youth still hopes for some semblance of civil liberties and autonomy. The economic issues are real and severe, but they don’t tell the whole story.
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Dec 18, 2019 23:58
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Snipee posted:The PRC’s dream is that they can reconcile purely by addressing economic dissatisfaction. Based off my limited experience, I would say that a solid majority of the HK population actively dislikes mainlanders. It just so happens that the older and richer HK residents are conveniently defeatists while the youth still hopes for some semblance of civil liberties and autonomy. The economic issues are real and severe, but they don’t tell the whole story. I'm not sure where you are getting that assertion from. The PRC has been hands off entirely with Hong Kong's oligarchs, allowing them to retain control over sprawling conglomerates like Swires and run roughshod over the real estate market. There is zero desire to show up in HK and start forcing structural changes to its economy, and its not like the localist mobs would take kindly to that kind of intervention either. I think an underrated matter of contention here is the loss of status that Hong Kong localists are upset the mainland has eclipsed them in nearly every aspect: -In 1990, undoubtedly HK residents spoke better english than mainlanders. Today, mainlanders working overseas are on par if not better than your average HK resident in english ability. Consider interviews with localist riot leaders like Joshua Wong and Joey Siu conducted in English: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrEDWmkiC3Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9nNeO0yWyk So Hong Kongers no longer have a grip on the population of English speaking Chinese like they did in the 80s and 90s. Localists also could feel pretty good about the state of Shenzhen across the river compared to the glittering city that the British helped them build in the 1980s: https://twitter.com/carlzha/status/1137387649000280064 Today that is no longer the case either. Salaries are higher in Shenzhen and the rent is cheaper. Boiling down the pathology of the localist protests you'll find that they are overwhelmingly petit bourgeois types fearful of the already precipitous decline in HK's relative power and authority compared to mainlanders. There is a reason why there haven't been throngs of taxi drivers or tea restaurant workers coming out in solidarity with the protests (the Hong Kong Federation of Trade Unions has adamantly refused to endorse the protesting, something the western media conveniently ignores). They are the people working to keep the gears of the city turning, often thanklessly. It's the downwardly mobile middle classes, abandoned by the UK (BNO is a joke and not inheritable, by 2047 there will be almost no BNO passport holders left), eclipsed by the PRC's other showcase cities who are lashing out.
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Dec 19, 2019 01:12
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:I'm not sure where you are getting that assertion from. The PRC has been hands off entirely with Hong Kong's oligarchs, allowing them to retain control over sprawling conglomerates like Swires and run roughshod over the real estate market. There is zero desire to show up in HK and start forcing structural changes to its economy, and its not like the localist mobs would take kindly to that kind of intervention either. I have family and friends in Hong Kong, and I have also periodically visited the city over the years. I’ll concede that they all range from lower middle to upper class. Unlike in places like Shanghai or Beijing, I didn’t have spontaneous conversations with many strangers there either since it’s a city where I mostly visit to catch up with people I already know. The surveys don’t validate your assumptions though. Here is a recent one from summer of this year before the protests got even more heated: https://www.hkupop.hku.hk/english/release/release1594.html quote:Results of the latest anniversary survey revealed that 27% of the respondents were proud of becoming a national citizen of China after the handover, while 71% said they did not have such feeling. Furthermore, 90% of people ages 18-29 said that they were not proud of being a Citizen citizen. Less than 10% seems to have much attachment to the mainland. They want less mainlanders competing with them for resources like baby milk, university seats, and so on, but they also generally don’t identify with mainlanders. They tend to see themselves as more orderly, more polite, more educated, etc. These accusations sound classist to a degree, but it’s an attitude I heard even from the lower middle class family members. Anyways, Hong King’s oligarchs and the CCP have had a mostly mutually symbiotic relationship which is one of the reasons why many of the locals are demanding autonomy. They see political liberties as a prerequisites for economic reform. I’m not going to address your pseudo Chinese nationalist claims regarding wounded pride over Hong Kong’s relative decline mostly because I don’t even know how you independently came to such a conclusion. Based off my on-the-ground experience, Hong Kongers universally express much more fear and anxiety than this sort of simplistic envy. They know that economic leverage was the main thing allowing them to enjoy the privileges of the One Country, Two Systems, and China has been predictably and steadily encroaching on their territory as Hong Kong’s relative importance shrank. If anything, accusations of envy from mainlanders like I have heard from Chinese nationalists strike me as sad cases of psychological projection.
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Dec 19, 2019 02:03
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Snipee posted:Furthermore, 90% of people ages 18-29 said that they were not proud of being a Citizen citizen. Less than 10% seems to have much attachment to the mainland. They want less mainlanders competing with them for resources like baby milk, university seats, and so on, but they also generally don’t identify with mainlanders. They tend to see themselves as more orderly, more polite, more educated, etc. These accusations sound classist to a degree, but it’s an attitude I heard even from the lower middle class family members. This uh, this doesn’t make the Hong Kong protests sound good.
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Dec 19, 2019 02:15
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Lightning Knight posted:This uh, this doesn’t make the Hong Kong protests sound good. No one is asking how you think it sounds.
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Dec 19, 2019 02:19
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Lightning Knight posted:This uh, this doesn’t make the Hong Kong protests sound good. I wouldn’t say that everyone that opposes the CCP is doing so for good reasons. I think that like any political movement, there will be a bunch of necessary useful idiots. Their complaints about the erosion of a free press and their fears over potentially losing the rule of law and due process are more valid, but I think that it’s fair to say that a significant number of Hong Kongers are impatient and intolerant assholes too. Real life is complicated.
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Dec 19, 2019 02:22
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Lightning Knight posted:This uh, this doesn’t make the Hong Kong protests sound good. Are you shocked that American liberals are idolizing US flag waving chuds again? Snipee posted:I wouldn’t say that everyone that opposes the CCP is doing so for good reasons. I think that like any political movement, there will be a bunch of necessary useful idiots. Their complaints about the erosion of a free press and their fears over potentially losing the rule of law and due process are more valid, but I think that it’s fair to say that a significant number of Hong Kongers are inpatient and intolerant assholes too. Real life is complicated. Reminder that the "pro-democracy" camp made a mountain out of a molehill when the city government tried to bring a guy who murdered his partner and stuffed her into a suitcase to justice. As far as I know he pretty much got away with it scot free.
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Dec 19, 2019 02:22
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Lightning Knight posted:This uh, this doesn’t make the Hong Kong protests sound good. Can't imagine why the locals might dislike people from the country they see as an occupying power
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Dec 19, 2019 02:26
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extradition laws &c are always going to be implemented when the subject is some objectively awful person, though, that doesn't mean that it's only going to be used on objectively awful people. one can legitimately protest a principle without being in favour of some psychopath - your rhetoric there is basically similar to the tough-on-crimes crowd
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Dec 19, 2019 02:27
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V. Illych L. posted:extradition laws &c are always going to be implemented when the subject is some objectively awful person, though, that doesn't mean that it's only going to be used on objectively awful people. one can legitimately protest a principle without being in favour of some psychopath - your rhetoric there is basically similar to the tough-on-crimes crowd The entire framing from western liberals is hysterical. Which is it: china needs this extradition law to black bag people they don't like? Or is China such an powerful autocracy they don't need any stinking laws to black bag people they don't like? Fojar38 posted:Can't imagine why the locals might dislike people from the country they see as an occupying power This is a common myth. The locals are not cantonese speakers. The locals speak hokkien and hakka. Cantonese speakers are settlers from the larger Guangzhou area.
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Dec 19, 2019 02:34
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Fojar38 posted:Can't imagine why the locals might dislike people from the country they see as an occupying power Hong Kong has and always will be a part of China They deserve everything they get for figuring out their own identity and wanting to be self determining instead of drinking the CCP kool aid and becoming a successful 1C2S story like Macau, a gambling and prostitution holiday hub CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:This is a common myth. The locals are not cantonese speakers. The locals speak hokkien and hakka. Cantonese speakers are settlers from the larger Guangzhou area. 
Kill All Cops fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Dec 19, 2019 02:37
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V. Illych L. posted:extradition laws &c are always going to be implemented when the subject is some objectively awful person, though, that doesn't mean that it's only going to be used on objectively awful people. one can legitimately protest a principle without being in favour of some psychopath - your rhetoric there is basically similar to the tough-on-crimes crowd how useful is something like psychoanalysis of a protest though, really? at its core, a protest is simply the dissatisfaction with the status quo boiling over.
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Dec 19, 2019 02:38
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if someone gets detained in hong kong, they can expect to remain in hong kong lest people have a legitimate case against the state under the rule of law, which is An Important Thing. if extradition passes, they cannot expect this. that is a significant change, especially for liberals and whatnot who resent the Party's grip on hong kong. the right to a trial in the US doesn't mean that people don't get hosed over, but it's far from irrelevant
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Dec 19, 2019 02:39
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Kill All Cops posted:They deserve everything they get for figuring out their own identity and wanting to be self determining instead of drinking the CCP kool aid and becoming a successful 1C2S story like Macau, a gambling and prostitution holiday hub This is some incredible salt. It must really chap the localists to know that across the bay the economy is doing far better, the Portuguese gave their former charges full residency, and that the Macau SAR is getting enlarged so they have more room to grow.
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Dec 19, 2019 02:42
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Fojar38 posted:Can't imagine why the locals might dislike people from the country they see as an occupying power Especially when mainlanders cut in line, spit on the ground, allow their children to piss/defecate in public spaces, etc. Hong Kongers usually have unpleasant personal stories to share about mainlanders, and it’s common enough that I have seen mainlanders misbehaving in Hong Kong in the past for myself. That said, I’m fairly sympathetic to the mainlanders’ relatively disadvantaged upbringings (especially those mainlanders that grew up in rural areas that are still shockingly impoverished even in a wealthy coastal province like Guangdong). Fortunately, mainlanders especially those in the big cities like Guangzhou have significantly improved their notoriously bad behavior. Hopefully, this stereotype will die in a few decades.
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Dec 19, 2019 02:42
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A big flaming stink posted:how useful is something like psychoanalysis of a protest though, really? at its core, a protest is simply the dissatisfaction with the status quo boiling over. political analysis is useful when it comes to assessing whether it's a cause worth supporting. to my mind, the HK protests are primarily about housing, but such protests always manifest as opposition to some form of misrule and then take a life of their own based on government reaction and the particular history involved, etc. in this case the protests have a very bourgeois character because a lot of the aggrieved people are essentially middle-class types who were expecting greater personal autonomy due to their education - there seems also to be very little genuinely revolutionary sentiment, with the protesters trying to achieve liberal institutional reforms and rallying to symbols to that effect
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Dec 19, 2019 02:45
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Snipee posted:Especially when mainlanders cut in line, spit on the ground, allow their children to piss/defecate in public spaces, etc. Hong Kongers usually have unpleasant personal stories to share about mainlanders, and it’s common enough that I have seen mainlanders misbehaving in Hong Kong in the past for myself. Ah, the famous 'they poo in the streets' racism. I think it's good that you learned to couch your bigotry by deflecting it on what Hong Kong localists are telling you.
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Dec 19, 2019 02:46
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:This is some incredible salt. It must really chap the localists to know that across the bay the economy is doing far better, the Portuguese gave their former charges full residency, and that the Macau SAR is getting enlarged so they have more room to grow.  An entire island enlarged so it can be filled with massive gaudy casinos, Hong Kongers hate this!
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Dec 19, 2019 02:48
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Kill All Cops posted:
You are evidently worked up enough about it to besmirch their good name for no reason other than envy and spite.
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Dec 19, 2019 02:49
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Defending excessive gambling and prostitution to own the Hong Kongers.
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Dec 19, 2019 02:53
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the odd desire some people have to wholeheartedly support an oligarchical and deeply corrupt regime in the face of obvious excesses never ceases to surprise me
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Dec 19, 2019 02:53
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Incidentally, simply being perceived as a city that Beijing has particular interest in was enough to put Macau's credit rating in the negative.
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Dec 19, 2019 02:55
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Kill All Cops posted:Defending excessive gambling and prostitution to own the Hong Kongers. Snarling at former Portuguese-speaking colonies and accusing them of degeneracy is a very progressive look.
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Dec 19, 2019 02:56
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:This is some incredible salt. It must really chap the localists to know that across the bay the economy is doing far better, the Portuguese gave their former charges full residency, and that the Macau SAR is getting enlarged so they have more room to grow. Macau’s history is fundamentally different from Hong Kong’s in ways that books can be and have been written about the subject. Just some key points from the more recent history, Macau used to have such a severe problem with organized crime under the Portuguese that media reports estimated more triad members than police. They welcomed the PLA as a way to restore order. The PRC’s plan to break Stanley Ho’s monopoly on organized gambling, to bring in Western casino companies, and allow mainland tourists created massive wealth and opportunity for a tiny city with well less than a million people. It was the one place where 1.4 billion people were legally allowed to gamble at a casino. Hong Kong’s experience is radically different. They had their first promise of democracy just before the handover. They have ten times the population with an advanced and diversified economy. Etc etc. CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Ah, the famous 'they poo in the streets' racism. I think it's good that you learned to couch your bigotry by deflecting it on what Hong Kong localists are telling you. Dude, some of those uncouth people are my relatives. It’s not racism. It’s fact. I have family all over the Pearl River Delta, and I have older relatives that spit publicly. It’s very obvious which city you are in around southern China when you line up for the metro. The younger generation is better about these things, but it takes time. I have seen mainlanders take a piss on grocery store aisles (although not in the last 5 years). Have you actually ever even been to East Asia?
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Dec 19, 2019 02:57
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Snipee posted:Dude, some of those uncouth people are my relatives. It’s not racism. It’s fact. I have family all over the Pearl River Delta, and I have older relatives that spit publicly. It’s very obvious which city you are in around southern China when you line up for the metro. The younger generation is better about these things, but it takes time. I have seen mainlanders take a piss on grocery store aisles (although not in the last 5 years). Have you actually ever even been to East Asia? These are all daily occurrences in Chicago, I don't see daily acts of contrition by people who live here attacking other Chicagoans with taking a dump on the blue line and peeing all over the pedway. Walk into a bar and insinuate that Chicagoans are uncouth and enjoy public defecation and see where that gets you. Snipee posted:Hong Kong’s experience is radically different. They had their first promise of democracy just before the handover. They have ten times the population with an advanced and diversified economy. Etc etc. Is that the same promise that got them the most unequal city in the world? I still don't see any path for localists where democracy would easy any of their grievances. Do you think elections in western countries where the establishment picks 2 liberal parties have resulted in any gains for the working class in the last 40 years? CAPS LOCK BROKEN fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Dec 19, 2019 03:05
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Snipee posted:Dude, some of those uncouth people are my relatives. It’s not racism. It’s fact. I have family all over the Pearl River Delta, and I have older relatives that spit publicly. It’s very obvious which city you are in around southern China when you line up for the metro. The younger generation is better about these things, but it takes time. I have seen mainlanders take a piss on grocery store aisles (although not in the last 5 years). Have you actually ever even been to East Asia? Just a heads up, to CAPS LOCK BROKEN it doesn't matter if you are Chinese, have Chinese family, or are of Chinese descent. It just causes him to switch tack from accusing you of being racist to accusing you of being a race traitor.
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Dec 19, 2019 03:10
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:These are all daily occurrences in Chicago, I don't see daily acts of contrition by people who live here attacking other Chicagoans with taking a dump on the blue line and peeing all over the pedway. Walk into a bar and insinuate that Chicagoans are uncouth and enjoy public defecation and see where that gets you. You’re so busy defending the CCP that you seem to have missed the part where I had already agreed that this sort of snobbery and lack of patience doesn’t reflect well on Hong Kongers. I think it’s understandable, but it’s not helpful. Anyways, someone else can take a turn trying to have a conversation with you. I find it curious how some Western leftists have rallied to the side of an authoritarian and corrupt party dominated by millionaires and billionaires with policies that are clearly more ethnocentric than class conscious, but the novelty wears off quickly.
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Dec 19, 2019 03:12
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V. Illych L. posted:political analysis is useful when it comes to assessing whether it's a cause worth supporting. to my mind, the HK protests are primarily about housing, but such protests always manifest as opposition to some form of misrule and then take a life of their own based on government reaction and the particular history involved, etc. in this case the protests have a very bourgeois character because a lot of the aggrieved people are essentially middle-class types who were expecting greater personal autonomy due to their education - there seems also to be very little genuinely revolutionary sentiment, with the protesters trying to achieve liberal institutional reforms and rallying to symbols to that effect Eh, that's sort of a side effect of the HK Basic Law / Functional Constituencies as they currently stand - it's easier to look at a universal suffrage guarantee and go "hey wait a minute, this isn't being fulfilled, the oligarchic shitbags and megacorps are LITERALLY AND EXPLICITLY in charge of the government, that's bad" than to enunciate an overwhelming structural change outside of that. relatedly that guarantee and the protests' focus on it was meant to pit the CCP against the HK elites, but lol turns out the CCP would rather back the dream capitalist political structure than allow a popular protest to alter the system of government
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Dec 19, 2019 03:31
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Snipee posted:Have you actually ever even been to East Asia? It shouldn't come as a surprise that all these tankies have never been to China and live in the US
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Dec 19, 2019 03:58
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As an aside, is "localist" some CCP talking point they desperately want to make happen? CLB's inside joke that s/he uses over and over again, and then chortles to themselves?
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Dec 19, 2019 04:04
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Switzerland posted:As an aside, is "localist" some CCP talking point they desperately want to make happen? CLB's inside joke that s/he uses over and over again, and then chortles to themselves? Localist sounds like locust, maybe that's it? Locust is a term of non-endearment for mainlanders in HK.
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Dec 19, 2019 04:35
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