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like obviously it's rad as gently caress to be a stalinist but you don't go anywhere near a labour campaign at a time when they need to rebuild ffs
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Dec 21, 2019 14:44
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yes i'm sure the anonymous labour sources briefing the times about the corbyn continuity candidate are doing so honestly and representing the situation in good faith.
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Dec 21, 2019 14:55
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gh0stpinballa posted:like obviously it's rad as gently caress to be a stalinist but you don't go anywhere near a labour campaign at a time when they need to rebuild ffs Darth Walrus posted:Found the backstory.
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Dec 21, 2019 14:58
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Stalinists have a habit of being big authoritarian shits, but you can't say they're bad at running leadership campaigns or shutting down trot nonce crews.
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Dec 21, 2019 15:03
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https://twitter.com/steven_swinford/status/1208323159843323904?s=21 British ICE is on its way, folks. Brace yourselves.
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Dec 21, 2019 15:03
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Darth Walrus posted:https://twitter.com/steven_swinford/status/1208323159843323904?s=21 Yeah that first point is fuuuuuuucking horrifying.
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Dec 21, 2019 15:05
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The only way to unite leftist forces and get something done is when one leftist leader flips the table and throws the other leftist leaders into prison. Plus Trotsky spent the later parts of his life in service to western Imperialism in exchange for a comfortable life and a never ending line of western journalists to tell his side of the story at face value. That well is poisoned.
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Dec 21, 2019 15:07
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While his murder was bad Trotsky became increasingly wrong the longer he lived so maybe his murder actually prevented a greater evil and saved his reputation somewhat?
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Dec 21, 2019 15:22
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otoh if he'd been allowed to continue getting worse maybe that would have discredited Trotskyism more thoroughly.
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Dec 21, 2019 15:27
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namesake posted:While his murder was bad Trotsky became increasingly wrong the longer he lived so maybe his murder actually prevented a greater evil and saved his reputation somewhat? Did you write the Hoi4 Soviet focus tree?
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Dec 21, 2019 15:27
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ey I went to school with this twitterer. weird who you see around
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Dec 21, 2019 15:35
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Trotsky was flawed but had some alright ideas, Trotskyists are garbage
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Dec 21, 2019 15:38
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Alchenar posted:Did you write the Hoi4 Soviet focus tree? Trotsky is super OP in HoI4, and that's why they needed to get rid of him..
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Dec 21, 2019 15:43
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who wants to guess how many tweets it took to get from this https://twitter.com/sean_antrim/status/1208080243136839682?s=19 to this https://twitter.com/sean_antrim/status/1208184424715685888?s=19 when u definitely care about human rights and helping the left lmao
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Dec 21, 2019 15:46
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did you know gay people in gaza get put in PRISON? crazy. anyway let's not think about anything any other country has done
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Dec 21, 2019 15:47
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I got as far as reading the first word of his bio.
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Dec 21, 2019 15:54
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ThomasPaine posted:Trotsky was flawed but had some alright ideas, Trotskyists are garbage The best idea Trotsky had was opposing Lenin & he even went back on that eventually. He's a jobby Just say no to democratic centralists.
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Dec 21, 2019 15:55
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Dabir posted:who wants to guess how many tweets it took to get from this I'm not quite getting this 'nobody in the UK cares about Palestine' thing (which I've seen expressed a few times) but having lived in Glasgow for so long I think I might have a skewed opinion on it
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Dec 21, 2019 16:15
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ThomasPaine posted:I'm not quite getting this 'nobody in the UK cares about Palestine' thing (which I've seen expressed a few times) but having lived in Glasgow for so long I think I might have a skewed opinion on it It's shifting rhetoric to always push the idea that supporting Palestinians is wrong due to whatever talking point I am currently focused on. If this one doesn't work I have others I can instantly pivot to.
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Dec 21, 2019 16:19
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First post election podcast is out for those who like post election podcasts: https://twitter.com/PraxisCast/status/1208394261445664768?s=19
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Dec 21, 2019 16:24
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the conversation went "Labour should stop supporting Palestine because nobody cares" "What benefit would doing that bring Labour?" "It would stop the antisemitism scandal." "Where do you think the antisemitism scandal comes from?" "Heated Antizionist Moments " "No, it's almost entirely cooked up by the media, Labour has significantly less antisemitism than the general population. It won't go away as long as the leader is a leftist. All this would do is hurt the Palestinians." "Israel has better human rights than Palestine"
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Dec 21, 2019 16:24
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Dabir posted:"Israel has better human rights than Palestine" I've stared at this line open mouthed for so long now every single word has lost all meaning. There isn't a combined ever expanding galaxy brain/fiery sun thinking emote to do this justice.
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Dec 21, 2019 16:33
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repiv posted:OCUK was founded by a big time BNP supporter yeah, but he died and they are owned by a big German retailer now. Not sure if the political ties lingered after that. I remember a teenage me being very proud at being banned by the piece of poo poo owner and then seeing the moderators private forum leak that I was really winding him up and he was trying to ask who I was. Glad I got under his skin and glad he died so young.
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Dec 21, 2019 16:34
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Bundy posted:I've stared at this line open mouthed for so long now every single word has lost all meaning. Technically true, but "the apartheid state has better human rights than the prison state it tolerates to exist as a dumping ground for Black South Africans" is hardly an endorsement of either, and acts only as a paper shield for the underlying statement of "whites are better".
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Dec 21, 2019 16:38
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at least it's a tacit recognition that the whole antisemitism attack on Labour is actually about IP, and not out of a concern about tackling racism "things would go a lot easier for you if you stopped openly supporting the Palestinian cause"  of course it barely ever comes up in official statements or anything, all the complaints have been about "what goes on inside Labour" so it kinda sounds like he's calling for a purge of anyone known to support Palestine in the party, zero tolerance style
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Dec 21, 2019 16:41
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When rightwingers talk about antisemitism what they actually mean is insufficient support for Israel in like 99% of the cases. It's some serious bullshit and there needs to be pushback on that front.
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Dec 21, 2019 16:47
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Israel has much better human rights than Palestine. Israeli people are allowed to own property, even when it's Palestinian.
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Dec 21, 2019 16:51
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Greetings to the thread. This is my first time back online since early hours of last Friday morning. I took a conscious decision to stay away from any news, messengers, facebooks, emails, forums, etc to have a good long break. (Also, I had terrible headaches, eye strain, back and neck ache from doing the online CLP stuff, and had to have a brutal massage on Wednesday to try and de-knot the muscles in my back and shoulders). Not even going to attempt to catch up over 4000 posts since I last came on so I hope all you goons who were absolutely devastated last Thursday night to the point of needing the help line numbers have all got through the last week. In the meantime, I've taken a conscious decision to leave the labour party - got a couple of bits to do so as not to leave my branch in the lurch before I quit and I did what I could to help our candidate throughout the election. My main reason is that nobody in the PLP stood up for us all being smeared as anti-semites and racists, and we're not allowed to even question the supposed anti-semitism because as soon as anyone does they are accused, even Jewish members. It's macarthyism gone mad. Corbyn and co kept apologizing for something that wasn't even true and the right of the party kept pushing it as a way of heaving out Corbyn. The supposedly left-leaning Guardian pushed it more than most. The absolute lunacy of A Christmas Carol and Corbyn's pronunciation of Epstein being deemed indicative of purported anti-semitism were frankly the worst. Someone should have stood up at the top and said this is utter shite but noone did. More and more calls for apologies. I'll still have a leadership vote through my union affiliation but we'll see. Just seen some posts above re RLB so not sure what that's all about, will have to get into reading the news soon I guess. Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Dec 21, 2019 |
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Dec 21, 2019 16:55
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Cerebral Bore posted:When rightwingers talk about antisemitism what they actually mean is insufficient support for Israel in like 99% of the cases. It's some serious bullshit and there needs to be pushback on that front. the left really needs to get a grip on this because it really worked out as an attack this time, so it'll be used again and again - there's already groups in the US taking note and trying the same against Bernie Sanders, citing Jeremy Corbyn as an example it's such an effective line because it attacks leftists on a strength (anti-racism) but also leverages leftist principles like "shut up and respect minority voices when they talk about issues they face" to work against us. Really we have to be seen to be actively taking this stuff seriously and dealing with it, instead of just having good internal processes that nobody on the outside knows anything about so lying about it is easy I dunno, it feels like an opportunity in a way - actively and seriously calling stuff out and dealing with it transparently sets a good example for society as a whole. It doesn't mean throwing people under the bus the moment they say something lovely, but it does mean addressing it so people can be better and everyone knows you've got their back. Trouble is getting there - the IHRA example changes were meant to be more robust about calling out antisemitism while also allowing IP stuff to be treated as a separate issue, and we all saw what kind of resistance that generated
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Dec 21, 2019 17:10
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The foreign office has been desperate to swallow up DfID from the beginning. If it happens the foreign aid budget will get redirected wholesale into being leverage for trade schemes and other influence peddling. Getting their hands off it was one of the best things Blair ever did.
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Dec 21, 2019 17:11
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has our good buddy Sanitary Naptime been around?Jaeluni Asjil posted:Greetings to the thread. hey wassup yeah I totally get that - I think the main thing to realise is that the PLP has been like this since Corbs got elected, they've been trying to drive him out or sink his election chances and this is the thing that finally stuck. They sure weren't going to shut it down - hell a lot of them are members of the JLM, one of the main authoritative voices in the media pushing this line against him all I'd say is they're trying to get control of the party back, so really leftists need support - especially after this loss, because they'll be emboldened. You see a lot of them calling for Labour to "go back to being a broad church", ironic considering that's exactly what Jeremy tried to create and they took advantage of that. What they really mean is them back in control and the left back on the fringes, never given a chance at the leadership again. The left really needs to consolidate while the opportunity's still there
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Dec 21, 2019 17:18
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JA, you have made consistently good and kind posts in this thread and its previous iterations. If you are dead set on leaving Labour then you have good reasons for it and, well, that’s your call. I’d like to ask you to think three times before deciding though. I have no idea where Labour is going right now, but I can’t imagine any other party being an improvement. On the right we currently have the LDs and on the left, the ML(GB) and SWP. It’s horrible to admit but branding is insanely important. I used to work in a top 3 law firm; a lot of people got to about 8 years in and decided they were good enough outside to build their own practices. You know what? Some of them were. It didn’t matter. The business didn’t come because nobody knew them and they didn’t have the money to change that. The most successful - the top 1% - work every hour God sends to make maybe 30% of what a partner at their old firm makes. See also Chuka and his pathetic career. The UK only has three parties that matter, and England only has two. It’s too hard to change that. Keeping Labour left after whatever happens with the leadership election is easier to achieve than creating a new party.
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Dec 21, 2019 17:22
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You forgot about George Galloway's Winker's Party United Kingdom.
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Dec 21, 2019 17:26
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baka kaba posted:has our good buddy Sanitary Naptime been around? He took some personal time after the election, but as evidenced by the new podcast episode, is around.
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Dec 21, 2019 17:31
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The fact is that UK labour is not going to solve the Israel-Palestine problem. The party position should be "we support the two-state solution and condemn acts of violence from both sides that detract from this", and leave it at until we're in power. Fighting over these points just bleeds energy better used elsewhere.
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Dec 21, 2019 17:34
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Beefeater1980 posted:JA, you have made consistently good and kind posts in this thread and its previous iterations. If you are dead set on leaving Labour then you have good reasons for it and, well, that’s your call. Thanks for your kind words Beefeater. I'm not planning on joining another party, as I want to be free to open my mouth without fear. I'll almost certainly continue to vote Labour unless they do a full Blair. I am deeply concerned about the IP situation for very personal reasons, not just as a 'moral injustice' thing. Given the headline which I inadvertently caught earlier in the week on the front of the Mail along the lines of Turkey allowing hamas to plot against Israel, when Israel constantly plots against Palestine and destroys many thousands of Palestinians in the process never gets a mention, and all the other things that I could say but shall restrain myself, and with Priti Patel full on fascist in the cabinet, I am fully expecting to see another 2000+ Palestinians slaughtered in the next couple of months and it makes me sick with despair.
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Dec 21, 2019 17:38
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mehall posted:He took some personal time after the election, but as evidenced by the new podcast episode, is around. cool cool, I think everyone needed to decompress a litt- wait, he's podcasting?? oh no, the devil's work 
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Dec 21, 2019 17:38
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Not So Fast posted:The fact is that UK labour is not going to solve the Israel-Palestine problem. The party position should be "we support the two-state solution and condemn acts of violence from both sides that detract from this", and leave it at until we're in power. but like I said, it barely seems to come up in public. And if you're saying the membership as individuals shouldn't care, then that's obviously not gonna work the IHRA thing was about trying to draw a line, the backlash was exactly the kind of thing that line was trying to prevent in future. palestinian solidarity, personal or otherwise, will absolutely be weaponised if it's seen to be an effective attack. it's not about destroying the Labour party, but it definitely is about pushing leftists out so the right wing can Get Their Party Back
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Dec 21, 2019 17:43
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is the scottish guy on this week's ep? i like his takes (bad at remembering usernames, sorry)
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Dec 21, 2019 18:02
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gh0stpinballa posted:is the scottish guy on this week's ep? i like his takes (bad at remembering usernames, sorry) I think there's at least three scottish guys.
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