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Okay, I finally have time to sit down and read some more Umineko chapter 5. Battler is just coming down from the family conference and sees Godha and Nanjo chatting with each other. I refuse to believe that this doesn't involve the conspiracy somehow. Edit: Hmm, with the baby and falling off the cliff:
MegaZeroX fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Dec 23, 2019 |
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Dec 23, 2019 04:23
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Anyone tried Eliza? Any opinions on it?quote:Eliza is a visual novel about an AI counseling program, the people who develop it, and the people who use it. Follow Evelyn Ishino-Aubrey as she reconnects with people from her past, gets to know the people of Seattle who use Eliza for counseling, and decides the course of her future.
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Dec 23, 2019 06:49
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Umineko chapter 5: Hmm. Since this son of Natsuhi's is on the island, it would have to be one of the other 17. But Erika is protected by red text. The parents and Battler were arguing while Natsuhi received the call (and Battler was kept under close watch). The cousins and Genji were dead for the second call. Goudha and Kanon were immediately outside the door for the second call. This leaves the following possibilities:
Added to all of this is that the voice sounds like Battler's, which is really confusing since it seems impossible for him to have done it. Edit: How could all of the corpses be moved? Kinzo was dead before the start of the game. The rest were all together the rest of time. This leaves:
This makes it all the more likely it is Krauss. At the beginning of chapter 5, it showed Erika accusing Natsuhi as the only one who could have done it. Since I expected that to be thrown away, that leaves Krauss. Krauss faked his own kidnapping, along with the help of Genji (who claimed the call was coming then even though it wasn't). Krauss calls Natsuhi and has her do all of those things. The only reason I can come with is that this is part of his plan to make Kinzo disappear in a believable way. But that still doesn't explain a lot of things. For example, couldn't a smaller number of deaths be acceptable? Did he really need to use the epitaph? Why would he torture Natsuhi in that way? And why would he kill Jessica then? MegaZeroX fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Dec 23, 2019 |
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Dec 23, 2019 16:15
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Regarding Umineko, it's my opinion that if someone is trying to "mechanically" understand what's going on, it's best to focus on episodes 1-4. Episode 5 is still technically consistent and correct, but it uses some mean tricks (I think someone even directly points out that Lambda is doing things Beato wouldn't as game-master) that can definitely throw someone off. The main things I'd pay attention to in episode 5 are increased knowledge about characters' circumstances and motivations.
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Dec 23, 2019 19:56
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Ryuga Death posted:Forgot to mention I already own both 428 and Fata Morgana, including the PS4 boxed version. Was just curious for any smaller titles that usually don't get mentioned. Maybe the YU-NO remake?
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Dec 24, 2019 20:53
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Ryuga Death posted:Anyone tried Eliza? Any opinions on it? theblackw0lf posted:Can't remember if this thread ha talked about Eliza yet, but it's fantastic and everyone should play it. I picked it up but I haven't started it yet.
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Dec 25, 2019 05:38
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Umineko chapter 5: I can't seem to come up with a reason that both Lambda and Bern would want to make it look as though Kinzo was still alive. With Lambda, I could think that maybe this was some tactic so that the game would exist forever. But I can't see any reason for Bern to do this if her goal is actually to win the game. Does Bern actually have the same goal as Lambda, and only made herself appear as if it was different?
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Dec 25, 2019 14:43
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Umineko Chpater 5 live blog episode 12038180320812308: I can't really think of anyway to make the letter thing work, other than a secret passage to the other mansion existing near the door. Because then, we could have someone both be neither outside of the mansion nor inside the mansion. Of course, this would have a mean interpretation of "mansion" which changes between the two red statements, but I totally can buy Lambda going full Aes Sedai. Edit: Wait, Natsuhi never told anyone about her favorite season, other than Shannon? Not even Krauss?  ... This has to just be fake then, right? Edit 2: Okay, the trial is partway through, but I thought I would at least give my theory, assuming all of the bullet points are defeated. It could be that those in the cousins' room killed each other. The last to kill still received a fatal wound, and moved to lie down on their bed. Edit 3: I don't see how it would be possible for Natushi to commit the crime between 12:00 and 1:00 if Rosa didn't return until 1:00, where Erika was already in the lounge. This explanation would involve Natsuhi hiding there the entire time or something. MegaZeroX fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Dec 25, 2019 |
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Dec 25, 2019 18:16
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Chapter 5: Pre-Tea Party I hope Battler actually gives evidence showing Natsuhi's alibi in the tea parties. I was pretty frustrated for the past 2 and a half hours, since I've been wanting Battler to actually quesiton how Natsuhi could have done it. The explanation finally given was that Natsuhi went to the room between 12:00 and 1:00, then waited for Rosa to come, then killed them, then hid in an unused room on the second floor seems pretty full of holes. First of all, are there even rooms on the second floor that aren't being used by any of the family? IIRC, the cousins were all in one room because of space reasons. So Natsuhi just couldn't go and hide in any room. Furthermore, she wouldn't have any opportunity to hide the bodies, since she was with the servants or the main party for the entire time frame. Edit: Okay, I'm pretty satisfied with that ending, although I wish realized found the hole in her theory earlier, since it was really frustrating. Also, I wonder what the golden truth meant? I'm going to theorize on how everything happened in the answer arcs some time before starting chapter 6 MegaZeroX fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Dec 26, 2019 |
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Dec 26, 2019 01:31
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https://twitter.com/deepbluejeer/status/1210216960677429248
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Dec 26, 2019 16:20
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OK, as promised, I'm going to do my post episode 5 theorizing post: (As mentioned in the VN, when the detective has their "aha" moment, then it is the reader's turn. Let's see if I can piece anything together) First, we need to explore the world of 18 years later. I had completely forgotten that everything in episode 1 was revealed to be part of the fisherman's letter he found. This is the first angle. Question 1: What are these episodes? How do they relate to each other and the future? Answer: Each episode is an interpretation on what happened on Rokenjima. The first two episodes are letters from the island. The third is the "Eva did it" theory, as she is the only survivor. The fourth is another letter. Given that most corpses are stated to be mostly unidentifiable at the end of chapter 1, none of these stories are what happened, since almost all of the corpses are able to be identified. What do we gain from this answer? We gain that each story, not consistent with each other or the final outcomes, are simply biased perspectives, that need to be taken with a grain of salt. Furthermore, the perspective is not from Battler. There is no detective that is safe from Knox's rules. Question 2: If all of the stories are just interpretations, what does that make red text? Answer: Red text is only a single truth, not the truth. It is simply the truth for the given story. As soon as someone has a full explanation the accounts for everything that happened on the island, conflicting with no evidence that they know of, it becomes a red truth. In other words, a collection of blue truths becomes the basis for any number of red truths. Red truths can be broken by a blue truth. Bern used Erika's reasoning to form a basis for red truths. This is how she was able to issue red truths. However, this truth could still be broken by Battler's blue truth. What do we gain from this answer? We learn not to blindly trust red truths. Red truths are simply the results from a theory. It also makes clear what a golden truth is. A golden truth is the full truth, which can only be issued by the authority that knows the real, full truth. This is effectively guaranteed truth by the author. Question 3: Why were these sent out, and why in such a fashion? Answer: Because, as the occult methods frequently mentioned, risk of failure is needed to increase the rewards. The "magic" of the island needed methods without guarantees of success. What do we gain from this answer? That the author, who also must have planned deaths in advanced (given the preparation to write all of it) is not Maria, and is into the occult. This would lead us to Kinzo. Gold truth admits that he is dead, but not when he died. All we have of his deaths before the game are from red truths, which simply mean he isn't alive in their theories. Where do I go from here? I'm not sure. I still need to do more thinking before starting chapter 6 I think. I also don't know if I went down a wrong reasoning path here. So you can probably expect more theorizing before starting chapter 6
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Dec 26, 2019 20:29
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Wait I'm confused, Which red truth did Battler break?
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Dec 27, 2019 00:16
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Droyer posted:Wait I'm confused, Which red truth did Battler break? The "inner red truth" that Bern was able to pull from. My current working interpretation is that Bern was only able to use red because Erika had a complete theory. Thus, her red was just the truth about Erika's interpretation. But since Battler was able to use blue to damage Erika, and she had to revise her theory. Since it was the "source" of Bern's red, damaging it means red can be attacked. This is how I'm interpreting things right now, based on the realization that all the episodes are simply stories about what happened, and thus the episode specific red can't all be simultaneously true. Obviously my interpretation could be wrong, but I can't seem to find any other way to resolve it. I also thought that possibly all episode red truths are about the one real truth independent of episode, but I can't seem to reconcile red truths in different episodes. I'm pretty sure I encountered something in my review where it would have resulted being killed simultaneously in two different places, for example
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Dec 27, 2019 00:39
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Reminder that When I speak the truth, I will use red, and when I do, I do not bear the responsibility of establishing that by showing proof! It is simply a fact and the truth! This is established in episode 2. Erika simply gets the benefit of doing that because she's locking down the possibilities such that there is no other option, and then Bern's accepting that and elevating it to red. As Lambda said: "...In this court, if anyone other than witches is going to speak the red truth, they'll have to construct an appropriate proof for it. Erika has been following this procedure, right...?" Witches are not subject to that restriction. Cyouni fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Dec 27, 2019 |
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Dec 27, 2019 03:11
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Cyouni posted:Reminder that When I speak the truth, I will use red, and when I do, I do not bear the responsibility of establishing that by showing proof! It is simply a fact and the truth! I don't see how this contradicts what I was saying? Beatrice's statement was correct. It is a fact. And a truth. Just not a singular one. What I am thinking is that Bern needs to follow the restrictions, since she can only know red text, which stems from a truth, but she can't use gold, because she doesn't know the truth. I don't recall her using red until episode 5. And I can read all of her red as simply being her Erika's truth behind chapter 5. I can read Beatrice's red from being the truth behind the letters in the bottles. I can read Eva's red as being her own truth for a which being behind everything. And Battler's red was simply a truth, although he really knows the gold truth. This all comes from that, as far as I can tell, each episode is contained within a theory itself, so the redtext is only the truth of the theory. The redtext displayed by Bern would simply be the truth of the theory that has Jessica, George, Maria, Rosa, Krauss, and Genji being the first 6 to die.
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Dec 27, 2019 03:40
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Ah, I see what you're getting at. Carry on.
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Dec 27, 2019 08:16
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The spoiler isn't a reaction to your theories but rather what I was thinking in the time between Episode 5 and starting 6. Episode 5: I interpreted Battler's gold truth to represent something broader like certain conviction, and given the way Lambda and Bern react to it I assumed he was basically saying he witnessed the body before it was burned or even disposed of it himself.
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Dec 27, 2019 09:04
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Episode 6 reveals some interesting things, so I'll be curious to see your opinions after that. It's technically possible to figure out some of the "tricks/twists" at the point you're at, though I didn't at the time. The trap I fell into is that I kept assuming that any time something seemed "obvious" (or non-Battler characters just assumed it) it must be false and there must be some crazy trick about why it's not true, but you can't really rely on "genre savvy" like that. To a large extent you should just listen to the things that "seem obvious" (that's as far as I'm willing to go as far as hints that are vague enough that they don't involve anything spoiler-y). Spoilers you shouldn't read (I'm not mentioning any specific plot details in case you mistakenly mouse over but I would still recommend against it): One of the things that really threw me off is that one of the "tricks" is just "people lying." When reading I was only really expecting the culprit and maybe one or two accomplices to lie, so the way accomplices change between episodes (so different people are lying, in addition to all the servants generally lying about things) really threw me off since I never accounted for that possibility. I tried to construct theories on the assumption that only specific people were lying across the episodes, that that'll gently caress you up because you'll inevitably end up assuming the words of a lying character are actually truth. But when you think about it, it's a totally reasonable possibility given the whole "bribery" thing (and it's thoroughly explained both how Ushiromiya family members could be bribed and why they would be willing to be complicit in murder for either money or out of fear)
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Dec 27, 2019 09:10
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I just finished Virtue's Last Reward, with all the gold files and everything. Uh. I fully admit to being a pretty stupid person, so while I think I got the gist of everything, it was also a bit confusing. It also seems like VLR was just a giant set up for ZTD?I guess I should move onto Zero Time Dilemma? Also, what was up with that whole "Another Time END" stuff? It seemed very odd. At best, it seemed like "?" was meant as a stand in for the player? It seems like ZTD doesn't have the best reputation either. Oh boy. Ryuga Death fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Dec 27, 2019 |
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Dec 27, 2019 20:46
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Ryuga Death posted:I just finished Virtue's Last Reward, with all the gold files and everything. You should. Don't expect ZTD to explain that part, though. The director has said that he considers that final all-collectables scene of VLR to be non-canon.
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Dec 27, 2019 20:50
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More post Umineko episode 5 ramblings: It's useless, its all useless. I think I've cracked the case. Le'ts examine the constants between the episodes, strongest to weakest.
In addition to Battler surviving, Nanjo never seems to be among the first killed. What does this mean? Given that he also was one of the recipients of the million dollar mail thing, this makes him rather suspicious. If I was to come up with a group of people carrying out Kinzo's final orders, it would be Nanjo, Genji, and Kumusawa. In otherwords, the "old" group. The Nanjo and Kumusawa household are known receivers of the money. So is Battler's household. This would make sense if he was wrapped up in some plot from his birth. I believe Battler to be the son of Beatrice, who was killed 20 years before the start. That would make Battler one year old when Natsuhi would take him in. Genji wasn't known to receive the money, but considering that there was one mail for each direction, there should have been four, so there needs to be another conspirator. What would the conspiracy be? To make sure that the person who inherited would be who Kinzo wanted. Who better than the new Beatrice, AKA Battler? The letter wasn't lying. Battler Beatrice would only go through the plan as long as the epitaph wasn't solved. I think we gain further clarity when we list some random things that happen in multiple episodes
Interestingly, with this random list I started coming up with, we see a lot of death patterns in episodes 1, 2, and 4. Why? Well because those are the episodes where the gold is never found. Thus, the conspirator group kills everyone. In episodes 3 and 5, the mystery of the gold is solved. Thus, the deaths are no longer properly coordinated. With this all in mind, let's examine Episode 1:
How do you like that blue truth BEEEATTRRRIICCCEEEE!!!!!!??? (episodes 2 through 5 to come in the future)
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Dec 27, 2019 22:32
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Ryuga Death posted:I just finished Virtue's Last Reward, with all the gold files and everything. ZTD is a fun ride and still well worth playing, though I don't think it's as good as VLR. It still has really cool aspects and I don't regret going through it one bit.
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Dec 28, 2019 00:08
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Keep up the posts MegaZeroX, they're fun to read. Looking forward to what you think after episode 6.
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Dec 28, 2019 00:27
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Ryuga Death posted:It seems like ZTD doesn't have the best reputation either. Oh boy. I think that's mostly just a combination of bad reactions to its big change in format and to it not following up on the bonus scene at the end of VLR - and that's on top of the sky-high anticipation for it given how the wait for it went. Taken on its own merits ZTD is absolutely fine; I've even seen people who rate it their favorite of the trilogy. Obviously those people are crazy, VLR is the best. But still.
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Dec 28, 2019 01:41
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I appreciate a lot of ZTD but the main twist of the plot is wildly, absurdly contrived, even for the Zero Escape series (and frankly a lot of the other twists seemed really obvious even on a first playthrough). ZTD's biggest crime, however, is how underutilized the message dog was.
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Dec 28, 2019 02:16
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food court bailiff posted:I appreciate a lot of ZTD but the main twist of the plot is wildly, absurdly contrived, even for the Zero Escape series (and frankly a lot of the other twists seemed really obvious even on a first playthrough). I liked 999 okay, liked VLR a lot, thought ZTD was like okay and then terrible at the end, never great like when I got to the part about MIND HACKING I had the same reaction as I did on the last game of thrones episode which is...not good That's just my opinion!
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Dec 28, 2019 02:29
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ZTD rules. It might honestly be my favorite Zero Escape game, though VLR is very very close.
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Dec 28, 2019 03:02
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ZTD is a good Uchikoshi game and I enjoyed it a lot. It gets a bad rap for not being the follow-up to VLR that people (myself included) really wanted, but honestly, I'm still happy that we got any kind of conclusion to the Zero Escape series at all, given how long it looked like we would never get anything. e: Ryuga Death posted:Also, what was up with that whole "Another Time END" stuff? It seemed very odd. At best, it seemed like "?" was meant as a stand in for the player? As others mentioned, that scene is no longer considered Zero Escape canon, but your guess was right. It's a reference to some of Uchikoshi's other games, where there is an in-universe explanation for the player's existence as a character. astr0man fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Dec 28, 2019 |
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Dec 28, 2019 03:12
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ZTD is alright but it's still kind of a bummer that all those loose ends that Uchikoshi answered with "this will be addressed in the next game" in the post-VLR Q&A did not, in fact, get addressed in the next game RIP Snake's screentime
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Dec 28, 2019 03:50
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For what it's worth, (ZTD/VLR spoilers) the "bad" end of ZTD that led directly to VLR was by far my favorite part of the game, and if the true ending had built more off of that instead of Sir Not Appearing In This Film I think the whole game would have felt better for me. I've had AI on my Switch for a while but haven't really felt like I've had a solid chunk of time to sit down and sink my teeth into it....so it remains completely unstarted. But even my vague dislike of ZTD didn't stop me from mashing that "buy" button the second I heard about it.
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Dec 28, 2019 04:07
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Really enjoying all these posts about VLR/ZTD! From the sounds of it, I'm guessing it seemed like VLR was going to be the final game for a while? That must've sucked back then, especially since the last part of the game has Akane do nothing but explain and hype up the premise of ZTD.astr0man posted:
Huh, what other games did he do? Any of them worth trying out? Sorry for dumb initial reactions to ZTD but I hope the thread doesn't mind: man, the series is not afraid to really change up the artstyle. The 3d models and movements are a bit off, to say the least. They really did get much better by the time AI Somnium Files rolled around. Reactions for spoilered stuff: Team D is totally the VLR team, isn't it? It seems like Diana is the inspiration for Luna's creation. Weird hearing Sigma have a voice and how casual Diana is about the whole consciousness stuff. I was actually surprised when it was revealed that both Akane and Junpei are in this game, mostly because they look so different, especially Junpei. That character hasn't looked the same in any of the games.
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Dec 28, 2019 04:24
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Spoilers for ZTD are tagged below: I thought ZTD was alright and the twist, mechanically, was fine (there was quite a bit of foreshadowing), but the rest of the ending was mostly bad (with Delta's motivations and such) Umineko spoilers tagged below: I realize in my previous Umineko post I forgot to add I believe Battler died 6 years ago, and BEATRICE BATTLER replaced him. As such, "Battler-kun is not the culprit" is obviously true, since he has been dead for 6 years. This doesn't stop BEATRICE BATTLER from being the culprit.
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Dec 28, 2019 04:26
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I'm playing this on a completely new machine now but the thread has me trying to get through Umineko ep4 again, wish me luck and that I don't run into any more weird crashing bugs that nobody else on the planet seems to have heard of.
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Dec 28, 2019 04:30
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I love ZTD because it's so, so, so dumb. Yet so many people hate it. Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Dec 28, 2019 04:38
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Ryuga Death posted:Really enjoying all these posts about VLR/ZTD! From the sounds of it, I'm guessing it seemed like VLR was going to be the final game for a while? That must've sucked back then, especially since the last part of the game has Akane do nothing but explain and hype up the premise of ZTD. Well, the Zero Escape series always performed poorly in Japan. 999 performed mediocrely, and VLR completely bombed. The games performed well enough in the US, but most Japanese companies make decisions based on their Japanese sales. After a fan driven campaign to complete the trilogy, Ushikoshi was apparently able to convince his superiors at Spike-Chunsoft to greenlight ZTD, with the focus being on their western sales. Ryuga Death posted:Huh, what other games did he do? Any of them worth trying out? When he was at KID, he wrote the Infinity games (Never 7, Ever 17, and Remember 11). The general advice is
Personally, I've only played Ever 17 and Remember 11 of the three, and Remember 11 is my favorite of them. Ever 17 was my second VN (I read it after 999, which was my first), but I still think Remember 11 is the better VN. Though IIRC you really need Ever 17 to understand Remember 11.
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Dec 28, 2019 04:38
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MegaZeroX posted:IIRC you really need Ever 17 to understand Remember 11. Not really, the Infinity games are fairly standalone. I think the extra ending stuff for R11 that was added to the PSP port is in some extras folder with the English patch but it's also been like 10 years and I might be imagining that.
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Dec 28, 2019 04:42
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I played an hour or so of Remember11. I really liked what I saw, other things just pulled me away. And hearing it wasn't actually finished diminished my want to go back.
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Dec 28, 2019 04:49
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kirbysuperstar posted:Not really, the Infinity games are fairly standalone. I thought (Remember 11 spoilers): the entire plot of the game was Naoya and Satoru having a plan to trap Blick Winkel (referred to as "That Guy" in game). Which is never explained, and can only be figured out on your own or looking at online explanations
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Dec 28, 2019 04:55
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The first time I read R11 I thought it was decent, but the way it ended left a pretty negative impression. It took a full reread of it a couple years later for me to really figure out/understand wtf was going on in it, but since then I’d say it’s one of my favorite VNs. Also, the infinity games are traditional VNs, and don’t have the puzzle/gameplay stuff like zero escape or AI.
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Dec 28, 2019 04:58
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It is probably not worth the effort to try to get Never 7 working on a modern machine, but it's still a quality Uchikoshi title all the same. I might be one of the only people in this thread that has played all three games though, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
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Dec 28, 2019 05:04
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