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Question for the writers. I skimmed through the thread and didn't really see anything like this addressed, so: how do you handle feedback/critiques from beta readers? I finally got a piece to a finished state after spending the better part of a year beating my head against it, tearing it all down, completely rewriting it, deciding it was poo poo and wondering why the gently caress I was bothering, and then somehow pushing through all of it to come up with something that's actually submittable. I've got some beta readers looking at it and overall I'm getting generally positive feedback with some good critiques. The problem I'm running into is, how do you keep it from becoming a case of too many cooks spoiling the soup? I could simply shake my head and say "no, this is perfect the way it is, gently caress you, I'm not changing it," but that's not going to give me the strongest possible version of the story (and also not help me grow as a writer). On the other hand, if I took every single person's piece of advice, I'd end up with a very watered-down version of what I started with as a result of trying to please everybody. And let's face it, there's always gonna be someone out there somewhere who hates your work no matter what. So the question I have is, when it comes to feedback/critiques, how do you determine what reader suggestions might be good to incorporate into a final draft, and what to ignore? For example, if two or three readers mention the same thing, then clearly that's something you should probably address, but if one reader says "well, you said this character's hair was green and I really just think they should have purple hair instead" ... yeah, maybe you can pass on that one. But it's all the other stuff in the middle. How do you determine the signal-to-noise ratio in your feedback and stay true to your original piece?
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Dec 17, 2019 03:19
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fauna posted:*does zero art*
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Dec 17, 2019 03:32
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Zamboni Rodeo posted:How do you determine the signal-to-noise ratio in your feedback and stay true to your original piece? I'm not a writer but I've had similar issues with other creative projects, and I think it honestly just comes down to judgement. You're the expert and the one with the plan, you just have to weigh that against the objective(ish) viewpoint an outsider has. Helpful, huh?
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Dec 17, 2019 04:39
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Yeah, with multiple readers, you're looking for trends. If one reader hates or is confused by something, you can think about it, but it may just be their taste; if a lot of your readers hate it or are confused by it, it probably needs to be fixed. Don't take every piece of advice, but look at what's working or isn't working for the group more broadly.
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Dec 17, 2019 04:45
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Also think about who's giving the feedback - someone more into your style / genre etc. of writing will understand things more easily than your mom, for example, so you have to decide who you're writing for. I have lost my favourite pen my mom bought me.  I guess tomorrow is tearing everything apart till I find it?
lofi fucked around with this message at 04:54 on Dec 17, 2019 |
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Dec 17, 2019 04:48
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lofi posted:I have lost my favourite pen my mom bought me. Sounds like it, yeah. I'm a sucker for quality pens, so I'd be the same way. Thanks to y'all for the input. My biggest problem is that I overthink the poo poo out of things. In this one story, for example, I went back and forth for like four or five days over whether or not a sentence should have a comma in a certain spot or not. It would have been grammatically correct either way; it was just the way the sentence read with it versus without it. And it's a detail that probably wouldn't matter to anyone else in the world but me.
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Dec 17, 2019 05:10
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Critique is a gift, and it's one you can choose to accept or not. It's a series of suggestions. Usually informed suggestions, but above the level of correcting technical and factual errors people are merely saying what worked or didn't work for them. So if someone lets you know that (for example) the air force in the UK is called the RAF and not the UKAF, that's a thing you should fix right away. However if the critique is that the characters in a scene swear too much and it makes their voices sound too similar, that's something where you have to decide for yourself if you agree or not. I'd generally agree with the point that if a lot of people are agreeing that something doesn't work, then it's something you need to fix. However for points only one person is making, it may come down to the personality of the particular critic. I used to be part of a critique group with someone who made a point of putting a comment on every page, even if it was meaningless or nitpicky or actually just wrong, because he felt like he'd only "read" it if he'd critiqued it.
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Dec 17, 2019 11:52
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Zamboni Rodeo posted:Question for the writers. I skimmed through the thread and didn't really see anything like this addressed, so: how do you handle feedback/critiques from beta readers? The most important person to give you feedback is: The person who is buying your book or the person you are writing the book to. Those people trump what other's say. Next up is what people are reading: If they are reading the start, and they are complaining its boring, then yeah I'd take that to heart. If it's a cooldown scene, midway through your book, and they say they aren't invested, I'll still listen to them, but also keep in mind that this is midway through my novel, where the reader should already be invested in the character. Audience matters as well, if someone unfamiliar with the genre says your book is refreshing and amazing, I'd let out a cheer and then promptly focus back on what someone familiar with the genre says. As well, if someone familiar with the genre says you are falling into a trope, you may want to embrace that trope or not. Really depends on what you want to do with the piece. How familiar someone is with your genre can impact how you should apply their critique. Finally, the bit nobody wants to hear, nor should you appear to have this attitude is.. It's your story, and all writers have to be arrogant. There is going to be some point where you have to ignore critique and push forward and share it. Regardless, the correct way to take critique is to say thank you, and I can tell you the times I haven't followed this advice have cost me.
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Dec 17, 2019 18:04
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Zamboni Rodeo posted:Thanks to y'all for the input. My biggest problem is that I overthink the poo poo out of things. In this one story, for example, I went back and forth for like four or five days over whether or not a sentence should have a comma in a certain spot or not. It would have been grammatically correct either way; it was just the way the sentence read with it versus without it. And it's a detail that probably wouldn't matter to anyone else in the world but me. I find you example hilarious, because the beautiful Finnish language has a word for the kind of person who needs to have the tiniest, most insignificant detail perfect and will halt a month's production from going forward because of said detail. The word is comma-fucker. Finished is better than perfect etc etc.
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Dec 18, 2019 00:24
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Sharpest Crayon posted:the beautiful Finnish language has a word for the kind of person who needs to have the tiniest, most insignificant detail perfect and will halt a month's production from going forward because of said detail.
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Dec 18, 2019 02:55
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The thunder dome is what you need, just to get you used to pooping out words and not treating them like treasure. It's not a panacea but it's extremely good for some common writerly ailments
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Dec 18, 2019 03:18
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 I'm getting really fed up with my thursdays to work on the puppet getting taken away from me, and I'm just not feeling like animating right now. decided to do a self indulgent character design to give to the DM of our DnD campaign as a possible NPC to use, since we have a bunch of warforge in this tropical island game already. Alot of little things I've wanted to do here. MD Geist colors, muscle wizard, goofy samurai dual katana thing except with wands, 90s shoulderpads, really getting use out of my copy of Strength Training Anatomy for once, ANGERY. The list goes on, but it's good to just have a little fun between desperately trying to scrape together more portfolio work to apply for Tripwire again this spring. Friend that works there says I have a chance if I keep up with my animation study! Diabetes Forecast fucked around with this message at 11:02 on Dec 18, 2019 |
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Dec 18, 2019 10:41
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What's Tripwire? e: Diabetes Forecast posted:really getting use out of my copy of Strength Training Anatomy for once Just looked this up and it looks really useful. Ta! lofi fucked around with this message at 11:49 on Dec 18, 2019 |
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Dec 18, 2019 11:43
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lofi posted:What's Tripwire? Game company that made KillingFloor and Red Orchestra. they're here in Georgia so it's something that would be good for me since I could be in sensible driving distance. And yes, I recommend that book to everyone. Even though I was just using it here to build some simplified shapes and make the shoulders cool, but I've used it for much more detailed things before.
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Dec 18, 2019 19:56
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Zamboni Rodeo posted:Question for the writers. I skimmed through the thread and didn't really see anything like this addressed, so: how do you handle feedback/critiques from beta readers? I'll preface this by saying I haven't used betas in a while. When I did, I tended to only listen to beta feedback about more concrete things. For instance, a character who is suddenly by the kitchen sink, when I had them sitting at the dining room table in the previous paragraph, or a factual error about the way a combustion engine works, or straight-up typos. Stuff like "You shouldn't have written X plot point because so-and-so said she HATES books with X plot point," is the kind of thing I'm extremely hesitant to act upon. That's taste, and taste is subjective. If three or four people are saying the same thing (as you alluded) then, yeah, I'll probably re-work that plot point. However, at the stage where a beta reader would come in (after I handed the book off to a line editor, then made changes based on that editor's recommendations), nearly everything is in the book for a very specific reason, so unless there is a suggestion made by multiple people, I'm rolling with what I've got. Determining what to follow and what to ignore is all about feel. You'll develop a better feel for things the more you work, so don't sweat it too much. Go with what makes sense to you, the author of the work.
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Dec 24, 2019 18:10
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christmas internet
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Dec 25, 2019 09:52
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yule information superhighway
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Dec 25, 2019 11:07
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fpyn-YiJzU
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Dec 29, 2019 04:23
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tigrephants
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Dec 29, 2019 07:02
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Just wanted to pop in and thank all of y'all once more for your advice re: reader critiques, what might be worth listening to, what should be ignored, and above all trusting myself to just tell the story I want to tell (which I think is what I have the hardest part with). You have all been super helpful during this process and I'm not sure I could have gotten here without your input. After giving the final piece back to my editor for one last pass -- just to check for grammatical errors, missing words, minor nitpicky poo poo that spellcheck won't find, that sort of thing, I grew a spine and submitted the drat thing as a birthday gift to myself -- yeah, it really is my birthday, and yeah, the deadline is still over a month away. But I wanted to do it and be done with it before I had a chance to start second-guessing everything and chicken out. In the end, this thing is loving solid and the higher level of my brain knows it. It's just the everyday self-doubting part of my brain that screams at me so much louder. And hell, even if I don't win or even end up as a finalist, I still loving submitted it, and that's the main thing.  Happy (early) new year, thread. Wish me luck.
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Dec 29, 2019 15:46
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Dec 30, 2019 05:18
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I will not betray the wu-tigerphant secret (because I do not know it)
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Dec 30, 2019 09:05
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Dec 30, 2019 10:11
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Is there any books or advice around making drawings that are symbolic? Is there a specific name for this sort of thing? Closest I could think of is surrealism. Things like surreal book covers or somewhat abstract splash pages in comics depicting ideas. Or is that just "making art"? I know there are a ton of different schools of art much like different genres of metal or techno but I suck with names.
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Dec 30, 2019 17:22
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I dunno... I think 'design' is the closest term for what you're describing, though I know that's pretty unhelpful.
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Dec 30, 2019 19:43
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Far be it from me to encourage you to betray the trust of your client and tell us about this crazy poo poo that is obviously magical that you keep teasing us with, but one question needs answering: If a tiger and elephant produced mutant offspring, would they be like THIS  or like THIS?
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Dec 30, 2019 23:39
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Sharpest Crayon posted:Far be it from me to encourage you to betray the trust of your client and tell us about this crazy poo poo that is obviously magical that you keep teasing us with, but one question needs answering: yes
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Dec 30, 2019 23:42
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lofi posted:I dunno... I think 'design' is the closest term for what you're describing, though I know that's pretty unhelpful. That is fair. I was just curious. Not sure what I don't know. I wish YouTube had more surveys of techniques and types of art Sharpest Crayon posted:Far be it from me to encourage you to betray the trust of your client and tell us about this crazy poo poo that is obviously magical that you keep teasing us with, but one question needs answering: The tiger top is my favorite 
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Dec 31, 2019 00:22
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syntaxrigger posted:That is fair. I was just curious. Not sure what I don't know. I wish YouTube had more surveys of techniques and types of art Go to your library and check out (hopefully the full-size version) of The Art Book published by Phaidon. Every page is an artist and a summary and a piece of their work, from well-knowns like Picasso to current artists. It’s a giant coffee book, but it rules. Also check out the How To Read A ___ Painting series. They go over different artists, movements, context, symbolism, and other questions you’re trying to verbalize. Here’s the Modern Painting entry. If you’re curious about the idea of artist and symbolism in art, maybe read some Roland Barthes. Image Music Text or Mythologies are good starts that elaborate on his ideas.
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Dec 31, 2019 01:07
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Sharpest Crayon posted:Far be it from me to encourage you to betray the trust of your client and tell us about this crazy poo poo that is obviously magical that you keep teasing us with, but one question needs answering: the answer is all of the above
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Dec 31, 2019 07:48
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(ps those are amazing)
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Dec 31, 2019 07:49
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 [mid november] OK thanks for info, I will start looking for a good photo. May take a while, the subject is 4 years old. Aww! Yeah, if they're that young I'd definitely work from a photo - I can't imagine how bored they'd get sitting for a 'live' painting! [mid december] Hi, I just wanted to see if you're still interested in this commission? I don't know if it was intended as a christmas gift, but I'd need to start very soon in order to finish it for christmas if so. Hi, still interested but no hurry, will take a while to get a good photo. Have tried before without success.Do keep reminding me though! Hah, ok, will do - good luck! Thanks, I have just nagged her mum for the umpteenth time to take lots of photos. Unfortunately Alex ( my granddaughter) isn't a poser. I know it's important for you to get a good photo with detail to be able to get a good likeness. Ah, I assumed it was your child, I can understand it taking longer if you have to get them through someone else. Happy New Year! Not forgotten you, been trying to get the perfect photo, so far failed. Will keep trying. What would it be like if you had one photo for the face and a different one for the hair? Also I loved the picture on FB a week or so ago, lots of colours, your comment said it was difficult to do but I loved the look of it. Was it gouche ??? Would you be willing to paint me a picture like that one instead of the all one coulour one I was interested in? And if yes how much would that cost? Just head ( and shoulders) ?? If yes can you send me an example of one you have done to be sure we have the same thing in mind? Thank you. Happy New Year! Sorry it's taken me a couple of days to reply, it's all been a bit mad round here!Doing a portrait from a combination of photos is definitely doable, though naturally where I have to invent it'll be less true-to-life. Did you have two photos in mind? If I can see them I'll be able to give a more specific response. I'm not certain which picture of mine you meant - please could you link to the one you meant? I've been playing with a few styles of gouache lately, some more time-consuming than others! I'm looking after my granddaughter tomorrow so going to try again to get a perfect photo. My daughter got cross with me being so picky but I know what I'm aiming for. Will keep your in touch. The portrait was very amazing, lots of bright colours. If you send me a photo of what you think it might be I can tell you if that's the one. 
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Jan 4, 2020 20:15
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I can't wait until they get the "perfect picture" and mail you a jpeg 300 pixels across.
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Jan 5, 2020 00:29
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If they're looking after the kid tomorrow and will try to get the perfect picture... My money is on "harassed child starts crying, family argument". Guess who's getting Pain In The rear end tax added to their quote? (I really want to just start responding to every msg with ok boomer till they go away) e: *posts four random pics from a 3/4 angleHi Lofi It's soooo hard! She just doesn't want to look at the camera. What I had in mind is:- Full face looking forward, but don't think I have a good enough image for that Hair covering ears No teeth showing? Easier for you? Don't mind if smiling or not. No words on tee shirt. As I haven't been able to take a suitable picture I have picked the best ones. If you still fancy having a go and I hope you do, pick which you like or a combination. Her favourite colour is purple so it would be good if it had some purple. I love bright colours in the mauve, pink bright blue area if that fits with you. Remember no hurry and I don't mind what size. I guess I was thinking something between A4 and A3 but really excited to have a painting of her, any size. Good Luck. P.S. Can you make her fringe without the missing v shape of hair please? So, just draw this person from another angle, but with a bunch of stuff changed. Yeeeesh. lofi fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Jan 6, 2020 |
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Jan 5, 2020 04:13
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Pfffft AHAHAHAHAHA oh my god. A very particular list of things that are needed with an added levity of "no worries about time or size, I'm obviously chill and super flexible" You better double your PITA tax and get the money in advance.
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Jan 6, 2020 15:02
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The PITA tax is currently more than the initial cost was. I'm considering instituting a boomer tax in future.
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Jan 6, 2020 18:06
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The one time someone wanted me to make pics for a game (tabletop), a game (computer) and a magazine/book that would compliment and add to the games and be published at the same time as the aforementioned games, all by myself and all writing/coding done by this one person .. I quoted myself at 70euros an hour. If it makes you feel any better 'bout boomers, I'm doing a pet portrait commission. The pet's name is a slur. Kicker: doing it half-price, because I'd promised to before I knew what it was gonna be. 
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Jan 7, 2020 00:03
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lmao lofi that is hell. i did exactly one kid portrait commission years ago. never again question, does anyone have any good really basic "how to create a cartoon character" resources available online? the sort you'd give to a 10-year-old just getting started in cartooning, although it's for me. i've always wanted to comic but was never allowed to watch much animation as a kid, and i'm starting to realise i missed a vital stage in my artistic development where you learn to distill the human form and expression into funny lines
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Jan 7, 2020 00:19
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my client now wants me to marry the sound engineer
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Jan 7, 2020 03:32
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Haha, I've not had a matchmaker client yet, nor a slur-pet, I think you guys win! Now I want to guess the slur, I'm gonna shoot for "darkie". Please tell me it's a dog, in my imagination he's taking it out for a walk and just shouting it's slurname in the park. I have no idea on comic resources like that, all I know are horrid How To Draw Manga books, and they're no real use. I think maybe you'd be better just doing it, and using your judgement on how to improve. Looking at smilies for distilled expressions is pretty helpful imo. lofi fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Jan 7, 2020 |
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Jan 7, 2020 05:15
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