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ThomasPaine posted:It boils my piss that these dumb fucks can't look at their own loving actions while they take their loving 'unflinching' look Am I out of touch? No, it is Corbyn who is wrong. 409: The Visigothic king Alaric I lays siege to Rome a second time, bringing the inhabitants close to starvation. Emperor Honorius, safe in inaccessible Ravenna, refuses to negotiate for peace, despite repeated offers from Alaric, who then comes to terms with the Senate and sets up a rival emperor, Priscus Attalus, prefect (praefectus urbi) of the city. This is all Corbyn's fault. Kassad fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Dec 30, 2019 |
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Dec 30, 2019 07:10
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It's like I keep saying: the Labour Right has had 4 years to think and come up with a better direction and set of policies, so let's hear it! They honestly seem to think that all they need to do is shout and scream until they're ushered back into leadership unopposed, in order to do...? Back to the 2010 - 2015 strategy of bland, timid triangulation which proved such a success then, I guess!
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Dec 30, 2019 09:15
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Ague Proof posted:Jolyon Maugham QC is a murderer. He beat a fox to death with a baseball bat. We will probably never know exactly what he was thinking. Obviously I did not know Jolyon Maugham. I never saw him in person and never spoke to him. But he represented something very special to me. In such a cut-throat, dirty, dark, often disgusting, business he was one of the good ones. When people talked poo poo about Remain and the bastards involved in it, you could always muffin out Jolyon Maugham as the exception to the rule. He was the one you could muffin to as a true professional who honored the cause he loved, who was passionate about it, who proved that you could dedicate your life to the law without being insane or scum or a monster. He was the ace in the hole. He was the one who wasn't in it for the pussy or because he was a failed lawyer in another profession because he wanted to get rich quick or because he wanted to be a movie star or because he saw FBPE as a means to an end. He was in it for the EU. He was dedicated to being the best professional lawyer he could be, and it showed in the courts. 
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Dec 30, 2019 10:13
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Ague Proof posted:Jolyon Maugham QC is a murderer. He beat a fox to death with a baseball bat. We will probably never know exactly what he was thinking. Obviously I did not know Jolyon Maugham. I never saw him in person and never spoke to him. But he represented something very special to me. In such a cut-throat, dirty, dark, often disgusting, business he was one of the good ones. When people talked poo poo about Remain and the bastards involved in it, you could always muffin out Jolyon Maugham as the exception to the rule. He was the one you could muffin to as a true professional who honored the cause he loved, who was passionate about it, who proved that you could dedicate your life to the law without being insane or scum or a monster. He was the ace in the hole. He was the one who wasn't in it for the pussy or because he was a failed lawyer in another profession because he wanted to get rich quick or because he wanted to be a movie star or because he saw FBPE as a means to an end. He was in it for the EU. He was dedicated to being the best professional lawyer he could be, and it showed in the courts. Someone is back?
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Dec 30, 2019 10:19
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Pistol_Pete posted:It's like I keep saying: the Labour Right has had 4 years to think and come up with a better direction and set of policies, so let's hear it! I think it's worth mentioning to them that, whilst we're self examining, we should as why the vote share shot up in 2017, what Corbyn did better than Brown and Milliband, and why following Smith Blair only ever lost support.
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Dec 30, 2019 10:26
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That's an edit of the PSP "Chris Benoit is a murderer" copypasta just so people know
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Dec 30, 2019 10:31
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Coohoolin posted:"Progressive patriotism" quote:Britain has a long history of patriotism rooted in working life, built on unity and pride in the common interests and shared life of everyone. This history is internationalist: as in 1862 when Lancashire’s mill workers supported Abraham Lincoln’s anti-slavery blockade of cotton from the American south. To win we must revive this progressive patriotism and solidarity in a form fit for modern Britain. While Boris Johnson criticises single mothers and likens Muslim women to bank robbers, we must stand for pride in our communities, dignity in our work and a common purpose that unites communities across the country. I could get behind a "patriotism" that was reflective of diversity, solidarity, and internationalism. It could be a strong tent pole in a campaign. My only concern would be that you have to waste momentum explaining what we mean by "patriotism", otherwise we'd just be confusing people
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Dec 30, 2019 10:33
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I thought Brits knew what patriotism was, and that it's the last refuge of the scoundrel. And also suspiciously American. And also requires a patris. [Gordon Brown lighting a solitary firework to celebrate the 300th anniversary of the Union as everyone else watches X Factor or something]
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Dec 30, 2019 10:44
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I think this discussion about strategies and Left Vs. Center has gone full circle a few times. I want to inject a few new questions into it if I may. How do you think the Tories are going to change the political landscape over the next 5 or possibly 10 years? There's some pretty direct things they'll do like gerrymandering but to give an example of what I mean: If the tories pull off a withdrawal of some kind and then implement an Australian points based immigration system, do we go into the following election campaigning on reversing the immigration system and changing our terms with the EU? I know questions like this tend to come down to "how did the policy go? Was it catastrophic/unpopular enough to present an opening?" which is why I've put the question as I have. How do you think the Tories are going to change the political landscape over the next 5/10 years?
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Dec 30, 2019 10:46
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'Progressive Patriotism! Controls on Immigration, but written on a Starbucks frothy coffee cup!'  Also a pitch worryingly devoid of any real substance. Pesmerga fucked around with this message at 10:58 on Dec 30, 2019 |
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Dec 30, 2019 10:56
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Debbie Does Dagon posted:I could get behind a "patriotism" that was reflective of diversity, solidarity, and internationalism. It could be a strong tent pole in a campaign. My only concern would be that you have to waste momentum explaining what we mean by "patriotism", otherwise we'd just be confusing people Yeah the actual substance of it seems fine I just don't get why you'd call it patriotism because there's large sections of the country and the state who did and do exactly the opposite of that. Also yeah it's mostly just guff, guff that identifies some of the right problems re: credibility, sure, but still guff.
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Dec 30, 2019 11:03
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OwlFancier posted:Yeah the actual substance of it seems fine I just don't get why you'd call it patriotism because there's large sections of the country and the state who did and do exactly the opposite of that. What substance?
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Dec 30, 2019 11:04
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She's saying that there's still a need to democratise the party which is better than Keir Starmer or Emily Thornberry managed
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Dec 30, 2019 11:04
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Progressive patriotism sounds a lot like an Australian points based immigration system but we say sorry in the rejection letters imo. Patriotism is racism and if you need to be racist to win you're fighting the wrong battle.
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Dec 30, 2019 11:04
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Pesmerga posted:What substance? As in the clarification about what "progressive patriotism" means, if she'd just wrote that without calling it that I'd have less concern.
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Dec 30, 2019 11:05
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I feel like the substance is "keep most/all of the current manifesto" which is pretty substantial already. Just dressing it differently If the only other left option is Lavery then RLB is probably my choice - while I'm sure Lavery would go on the attack quite well I think it's a problem that Labour has never had a female leader besides Harman.
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Dec 30, 2019 11:05
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StarkingBarfish posted:Patriotism is racism and if you need to be racist to win you're fighting the wrong battle.
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Dec 30, 2019 11:06
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Guavanaut posted:I thought Brits knew what patriotism was, and that it's the last refuge of the scoundrel. Pesmerga posted:'Progressive Patriotism! Controls on Immigration, but written on a Starbucks frothy coffee cup!' With no inside knowledge of where RLB is going with this, my hope is that it's a rebranding of what we're already offering. We're supposed to be a popular movement, so why not steal and repurpose populist language?
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Dec 30, 2019 11:06
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Because the people using that language know what they mean and you're not gonna trick them by trying to make it mean something else.
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Dec 30, 2019 11:09
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Debbie Does Dagon posted:With no inside knowledge of where RLB is going with this, my hope is that it's a rebranding of what we're already offering. We're supposed to be a popular movement, so why not steal and repurpose populist language? Because it doesn't work. That's what Labour tried to do with immigration, and it didn't stop the right going further right on immigration, if anything, it just legitimised what they were saying, rather than challenging the narrative. And if it's a rebranding of what we're already offering, what exactly is it that we are offering? Maugrim posted:I feel like the substance is "keep most/all of the current manifesto" which is pretty substantial already. Just dressing it differently As for Lavery, I'm not thrilled with either, but if it was a vote to keep him out, rather than actually voting for something I believe in... OwlFancier posted:As in the clarification about what "progressive patriotism" means, if she'd just wrote that without calling it that I'd have less concern. I think there needs to be a little more to it than 'some Lancashire mill owners supported anti-slavery once'. "Britain has a long history of patriotism rooted in working life, built on unity and pride in the common interests and shared life of everyone.' - really? MikeCrotch posted:She's saying that there's still a need to democratise the party which is better than Keir Starmer or Emily Thornberry managed She starts by saying 'no more New-Labour triangulation', and then tries to triangulate between all the different views in the Labour Party. The democratisation of the party bit is vague, and Corbyn also used the same rhetoric, while using Party Conference in the same way as his predecessors. It ended up being party democracy as legitimising tool, rather than a dedicated effort to do so. Also, lol. Tony Blair in the Guardian in 2001 posted:We must set out our vision for a 'new patriotism' RLB in the Guardian posted:Britain has a long history of patriotism rooted in working life, built on unity and pride in the common interests and shared life of everyone. This history is internationalist: as in 1862 when Lancashire’s mill workers supported Abraham Lincoln’s anti-slavery blockade of cotton from the American south. To win we must revive this progressive patriotism and solidarity in a form fit for modern Britain. While Boris Johnson criticises single mothers and likens Muslim women to bank robbers, we must stand for pride in our communities, dignity in our work and a common purpose that unites communities across the country. Pesmerga fucked around with this message at 11:16 on Dec 30, 2019 |
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Dec 30, 2019 11:11
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ThomasPaine posted:It boils my piss that these dumb fucks can't look at their own loving actions while they take their loving 'unflinching' look Everyone I know from the left is quiet and deflated after the election. The centrists are enthused and energised. Because centrists saw the result as a "victory". Which is all you need to know about them.
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Dec 30, 2019 11:13
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Well, she's clear enough in the article: by progressive patriotism she means reviving the spirit of ordinary people coming together and improving the country based on their shared interests, without being horrible to other groups of people. It's a positive patriotism as opposed to the exclusionary nationalism of the Tories. Also, it's striking how Guardian readers have simply transferred their hatred of Corbyn to RLB. She hasn't even become leader yet and they're already shrieking that she's a weak, useless, unelectable woman.
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Dec 30, 2019 11:16
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Welp. It wasn't my fault, I can count on an exemplary reference and essentially time and a half for the past month, and I don't have to go in again but gently caress this hurts. 3 times in 18 months. And I'm sick  Conversely, i got a tax rebate 
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Dec 30, 2019 11:16
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^^^ sorry bud, I hope you find somethingOwlFancier posted:As in the clarification about what "progressive patriotism" means, if she'd just wrote that without calling it that I'd have less concern. yeah sounds more like trying to tie "pride in Britain" to an idea of solidarity and internationalism and progressiveness, getting ahead of the game before the media defines the new leadership as haters after the hack job done on Corbyn we need to be assertive about countering this stuff and pushing a message, so stuff like "patriotism" which shouldn't be an issue still has to be handled one way or another. It's better to make it a positive position than Controls On Immigrationing yourself into a reactionary take in the hopes the bullies will be nicer to you hell maybe it's the solitary fig leaf for the remaining blairites in the party. cool britannia is back baby baka kaba fucked around with this message at 11:28 on Dec 30, 2019 |
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Dec 30, 2019 11:18
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Pesmerga posted:I think there needs to be a little more to it than 'some Lancashire mill owners supported anti-slavery once'. It's not total bunk but as written it's more One Nation Tory than the actual radical and egalitarian movements they should be making reference to. An international patriotism runs into the same problems as civic nationalism - it's an appeal to two concepts which don't really gel.
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Dec 30, 2019 11:18
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namesake posted:It's not total bunk but as written it's more One Nation Tory than the actual radical and egalitarian movements they should be making reference to. An international patriotism runs into the same problems as civic nationalism - it's an appeal to two concepts which don't really gel. Blair already tried it in 2001 with limited success. And again, if that's what she's doing, it's 'no more triangulation', while triangulating as hard as possible.
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Dec 30, 2019 11:20
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thespaceinvader posted:Welp. Employment sucks poo poo and looking for it sucks more. I hope you find somewhere decent eventually.
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Dec 30, 2019 11:22
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Pesmerga posted:Blair already tried it in 2001 with limited success. And again, if that's what she's doing, it's 'no more triangulation', while triangulating as hard as possible. The actual justifications between the two are incredibly different though, Blair is saying 'Export British Values', RLB is specifically referencing 'Remember the time people got together to fight slavery?'. It's a bad pitch I agree but they aren't the same thing.
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Dec 30, 2019 11:24
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What she's hinting at could as easily be described as localism so I don't get why you'd call it patriotism.
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Dec 30, 2019 11:25
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DickEmery posted:Everyone I know from the left is quiet and deflated after the election. To be fair though, if the centrists had the party leadership and lost the election, we'd see the result as a "victory" because it would be a vindication that the party wasn't left-leaning enough. The difference is we'd be right because the leftist policies have popular support, which the centrists seem to have no answer for (seriously I've never seen a single one of them ever address that, has anyone here?)
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Dec 30, 2019 11:27
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Pesmerga posted:Blair already tried it in 2001 with limited success. And again, if that's what she's doing, it's 'no more triangulation', while triangulating as hard as possible. What would an acceptable left position on patriotism look like from your perspective? I feel like "you dumb assholes with your flags are all racist", however you try to present it, is going to have all the issues that made the remain campaign so amazingly toxic.
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Dec 30, 2019 11:29
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OwlFancier posted:What she's hinting at could as easily be described as localism so I don't get why you'd call it patriotism. Yeah it's an attempt to change the definition to a more inclusive tone. It's not impossible, in the same way that the actions of an individual scientist or sports team or whatever is biggened up to be reflective of a whole nation, it's just going against the grain because typically the radicals were fighting or utterly unsupported by the authorities and dominant cultures of the day which makes it hard to really see it as part of the whole and the superstructure has no interest in making it appear as if they were either.
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Dec 30, 2019 11:30
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Why is RLB writing in the guardian? Don’t you guys have alternative socialist journals/websites like Jacobin and CommonDreams? It seems to me that the American left is more autonomous than the British left, which is weird when here in America, child labor laws are seen as a pinko conspiracy https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/425043/ Look at this advertisement for a left nationalism. PawParole fucked around with this message at 11:35 on Dec 30, 2019 |
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Dec 30, 2019 11:31
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Wolfsbane posted:What would an acceptable left position on patriotism look like from your perspective? I feel like "you dumb assholes with your flags are all racist", however you try to present it, is going to have all the issues that made the remain campaign so amazingly toxic. It doesn't work. It looks very obviously like trying to chase the voters on the right, and will be seen through as such. You're either progressive, or you're patriotic, this whole idea that nationalism can be wrapped up in a red flag and then suddenly its ok will not work for the left. The right will still see the red flag, and the nationalism will turn off a lot of the voters who would otherwise be supportive. The left should be challenging these narratives, not trying to co-opt them.
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Dec 30, 2019 11:32
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Progressive patriotism means billionaires saluting to the flag as they pay their progressive taxes.  capital has no patria, so capitalism is inherently unpatriotic
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Dec 30, 2019 11:34
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PawParole posted:Why is RLB writing in the guardian? Don’t you guys have alternative socialist journals/websites like Jacobin and CommonDreams? Maybe she wants it to be read by more than one person
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Dec 30, 2019 11:38
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StarkingBarfish posted:Patriotism is racism It really, really isn't, and if you believe that then you must also believe that anyone who likes the country they live in is a racist.
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Dec 30, 2019 11:41
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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One thing is that a political party in a representative democracy is, at some level, a nationalist entity. It can only gain power with the consent of those who a nation deems to be its citizens, and both it and its electorate have a vested interest in maintaining their sovereignty in order to continue to have a say in how their nation is run. This was one of the EU's big problems - it didn't present a convincing or obvious case for how it could be trusted to aid the British electorate's interests. As such, any political party needs to present a pitch on its willingness to prioritise the electorate's interests and the system that gives them power. If you're presenting an internationalist message, you'd better be damned sure you can package it in a way that would appeal to the people who actually get to vote for you, and that's tricky for Britain because we're a wealthy, privileged country who takes a lot more from the rest of the world than we give.
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Dec 30, 2019 11:42
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Guavanaut posted:I thought Brits knew what patriotism was, and that it's the last refuge of the scoundrel. Patria
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Dec 30, 2019 11:45
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PawParole posted:Why is RLB writing in the guardian? Don’t you guys have alternative socialist journals/websites like Jacobin and CommonDreams? it's exactly the kind of place that needs it tbh I got that article as a notification on my phone, just the headline so I didn't know who wrote it, and seeing "The Guardian: This is How We Can Take the Labour Party Into Power Again" I just assumed it was an editorial about getting Blair back in now that pesky Corbyn's out of the way
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Dec 30, 2019 11:49
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