|
Josef bugman posted:Labour should be internationalist, but most people who vote don't really want to vote Labour, so what can we do? Seems the people want fascism, oh well, let's try and be fascist too, but hopefully slightly less fascist and people will vote for us, the fascist-lite party, rather than the 'nope, we're doubling down on the fascism' party. The left needs to learn that when it plays this game against the right, it doesn't win. It just legitimises it.
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 21:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 19:24 |
|
|
Pesmerga posted:Seems the people want fascism, oh well, let's try and be fascist too, but hopefully slightly less fascist and people will vote for us, the fascist-lite party, rather than the 'nope, we're doubling down on the fascism' party. Then what the gently caress do you suggest? Because thus far "moan we didn't win" and "moan we didn't win and then moan our message isn't getting out" isn't helping. Sure, I can see going "This national socialism will really help!" is loving nonsense but going "perhaps Britain can be better and we can be proud of parts of it", isn't that. Because, as I keep pointing out, people will takes attacks on a nation as attacks on themselves because that is how we are brought up to feel about nation states.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 21:09
|
|
|
Josef bugman posted:Then what the gently caress do you suggest? Because thus far "moan we didn't win" and "moan we didn't win and then moan our message isn't getting out" isn't helping. Community-building outside of election season and focusing on specific political issues in those regions while challenging the right-wing talking points rather than flailing about trying to co-opt them would be a loving start. 'Progressive patriotism' is such an utterly bullshit expression that demoralises half the voter-base while leading the right to crow about the fact they've won on the nationalism question. And there is no way to develop a 'patriotism' that doesn't end up in some form of soft nationalism, either ethno or otherwise. 'Here is my story about British progressive values (and all my examples are English)' gives an indication of where that's going. Edit 2: maybe we could consider not the leftist progressive way, or the rightist patriotic way, but perhaps, a third way. A mixing of the progressive and the patriotic. It'll be like New Public Management, but for a moderate nationalism. Pesmerga fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Dec 30, 2019 |
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 21:11
|
|
|
Pesmerga posted:Community-building outside of election season and focusing on specific political issues in those regions while challenging the right-wing talking points rather than flailing about trying to co-opt them would be a loving start. Mhm, and where and how are we supposed to do that? Our lives are increasingly atomised and lived alone, the time for doing that may have been some time ago and whilst I support those options going "perhaps we can try and be proud about ourselves in some nice ways" and then people going "er actually no" seems like the sort of thing that was tired back in the loving 90's. loving hell, I despair if you go "the nation state must be torn down and also vote for me". You can have one or the other but not both Pes. Jesus Christ, the ability to go "I think that Peterloo is important and nationally recognisable, it is something that we as working class people and British people should all look back on and think about" is not going to turn us into Nazi's! Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Dec 30, 2019 |
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 21:13
|
|
|
Josef bugman posted:Mhm, and where and how are we supposed to do that? Our lives are increasingly atomised and lived alone, the time for doing that may have been some time ago and whilst I support those options going "perhaps we can try and be proud about ourselves in some nice ways" and then people going "er actually no" seems like the sort of thing that was tired back in the loving 90's. Yeah, the solution is definitely not to ape Thatcher on the market economy, but leapfrog her to Powell instead. Edit: and on Peterloo, what message about 'patriotism' does that one have exactly?
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 21:16
|
|
|
Pesmerga posted:Yeah, the solution is definitely not to ape Thatcher on the market economy, but leapfrog her to Powell instead. Powell and Thatcher can both gently caress off, and I don't want to sound like I am one of those pricks going "Well what we need to do is get more racist! That will bring the lower class into the glorious proletarian future etc etc" I also don't want to hit square into the Liberal idea of "Those feckless ingrates can see nothing but their own pleasures, the foot the ball and all vulgar displays must removed from our ideas". That you should fight for the people who need it, that we can and should look at a radical tradition and not forget that for all the sanitisation of history or the attempt by the aristocracy to put the murder elsewhere, they will run you over with horses and butcher you in front of your family if they think that you are a threat. It can happen here. I want there to be an attempt at community building, but that's going to be hard at the best of times, and especially so when we try and start something up after a defeat going "Well we've got no money and no expertise, but I know what people around here want!" I never mentioned Patriotism but you jumped right into it, because it's easy. And lord knows I think Patriotism and nationalism are grim and loving awful, but other than a sustained attempt to divorce the nation state and your personhood for living inside of it, I am not sure what to do.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 21:25
|
|
|
I'm not sure what you can draw from peterloo other than the idea that the nation and patriotism and all that poo poo is a complete lie and that class is the only thing you can stick to.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 21:27
|
|
|
Josef bugman posted:Powell and Thatcher can both gently caress off, and I don't want to sound like I am one of those pricks going "Well what we need to do is get more racist! That will bring the lower class into the glorious proletarian future etc etc" I also don't want to hit square into the Liberal idea of "Those feckless ingrates can see nothing but their own pleasures, the foot the ball and all vulgar displays must removed from our ideas". You did so implicitly by suggesting people want something more nationalist, so what else can Labour do but follow that signal. I disagree. And given that my criticism of all this has been the retreat into the grim and loving awful nature of patriotism, I'm not quite sure what you were disagreeing with. I'm struggling to find an example where appeals to patriotism didn't end in appeals to a certain ethno-nationalist nature, and every single time Labour has tried to ape the talking points of the right to win back those supposed floating voters, it's emboldened the right and Labour has been savaged by the press for it anyway. My biggest worry is that if RLB is folliowing Liam Byrne of all loving people with 'hmm, what we need is a patriotism, but a left version, with our current manifesto but with more union jack flags', then that means the left is out of ideas, and that strikes me as even worse.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 21:33
|
|
|
Pesmerga posted:I'm struggling to find an example where appeals to patriotism didn't end in appeals to a certain ethno-nationalist nature I mean it's a very different context but there's a clue in your username
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 21:37
|
|
|
Pesmerga posted:You did so implicitly by suggesting people want something more nationalist, so what else can Labour do but follow that signal. I disagree. And given that my criticism of all this has been the retreat into the grim and loving awful nature of patriotism, I'm not quite sure what you were disagreeing with. I'm struggling to find an example where appeals to patriotism didn't end in appeals to a certain ethno-nationalist nature, and every single time Labour has tried to ape the talking points of the right to win back those supposed floating voters, it's emboldened the right and Labour has been savaged by the press for it anyway. My biggest worry is that if RLB is folliowing Liam Byrne of all loving people with 'hmm, what we need is a patriotism, but a left version, with our current manifesto but with more union jack flags', then that means the left is out of ideas, and that strikes me as even worse. How to put this politely. I think that, just as the personal is political, the political often becomes personal. I think that in a lot of ways it is very easy for us to get stereotyped as "hating Britain", which TBF isn't untrue, lots of people do and should hate Britain, but that gets translated into two distinct things. 1) You hate the people who live here and 2) You just hate everyone who isn't as educated as you are. Like, the first one is obvious bunkum but once again people identify themselves extremely strongly with the place they live. The second I think plays into a lot of class problems that we have in that, collectively, telling people "you are wrong for liking this" seems a hard thing to make people contemplate when they aren't interested in politics. Like "I think we should be proud of our unions" and then follow that up with everyone who complains going "why are you doing down the hard working worker?" Like I don't know. I am not a very smart person but I am trying my best to come up with ideas. The left tried our ideas and we appear to have been told "No. We don't think your ideas are good, we don't want you, more union jack flags". I mean that is partially to do with monstering of Labour over the past 2 years, but there does seem to be a great deal of difficulty in communicating things because we all live in the same areas! Like, I don't see what a helpful thing to do is, other than to vaguely gesture at something we can maybe do that might work? I'd love it if local groups can work, but do you know a big loving problem is that so many of us live in massive cities and I don't think me parachuting into Crewe would be that helpful, even if I did grow up there. I don't know what to do and it's intensely frustrating to not be able to figure it out with no guide.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 21:47
|
|
|
ThomasPaine posted:I mean it's a very different context but there's a clue in your username Suikoden?  But more seriously, isn’t the whole Kurdish project the building of a home state for Kurds? If you have more information on the region, the peshmerga and non-ethno nationalist patriotism in that context, or links to where I can read up more on it, I’d be really interested.  Josef bugman posted:I'd love it if local groups can work, but do you know a big loving problem is that so many of us live in massive cities and I don't think me parachuting into Crewe would be that helpful, even if I did grow up there. I don't know what to do and it's intensely frustrating to not be able to figure it out with no guide. I’m trying to figure it out myself, but one thing I kept hearing while canvassing was that they had no contact or apparent interest from their MP outside of election time. Building those links will be important. But regardless, a retreat into trying to mimic the right isn’t going to help. Blair tried it, Brown tried it, and Miliband tried it, all in their own way, and it came back to bite all of them. It’s not something Labour should be dabbling in. Particularly if they haven’t thought it through beyond ‘this soundbite might play well’. Pesmerga fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Dec 30, 2019 |
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 21:49
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:I'm not sure what you can draw from peterloo other than the idea that the nation and patriotism and all that poo poo is a complete lie and that class is the only thing you can stick to. What we have now in it's place is an English identity based on "I'm English not British God Save the Queen and Bobby Charlton who fought on the beaches at Blackpool to save proper fish and chips from German Muslims and the Scots" which I'm not sure is something that you can work with in the same way. Pesmerga posted:Suikoden? There is still an ethnic Kurdish nature to the project but I think you see that in any group that has been treated like the Kurds have. They've seen what happened with Afrikaners and Israelis and want no part of that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 21:55
|
|
|
Guavanaut posted:What we did end up getting from Peterloo was the birth of the 'English' identity and the idea that it's English workers against the Hanoverian-Norman elite as a battle though. Interesting. I definitely need to read more into it. Democratic confederacy could be something to consider with the UK. Cue Clive Lewis writing an op-ed for the Guardian on how we need to rebrand as the Confederate Kingdom with a new version of the Union Jack.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 22:04
|
|
|
I don't have a crystal ball or anything but I think focusing hard on unions might be a good strategy. Like viciously attacking the "gig economy" and zero hour contracts, putting lots of Labour MP weight on unionising that kind of work and how the tories are keeping "unemployment" low by making jobs precarious as gently caress Also, promising more and better benefit systems to replace the godawful UC
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 22:06
|
|
|
Pesmerga posted:I’m trying to figure it out myself, but one thing I kept hearing while canvassing was that they had no contact or apparent interest from their MP outside of election time. Building those links will be important. But regardless, a retreat into trying to mimic the right isn’t going to help. Blair tried it, Brown tried it, and Miliband tried it, all in their own way, and it came back to bite all of them. It’s not something Labour should be dabbling in. Particularly if they haven’t thought it through beyond ‘this soundbite might play well’. How are the MP's supposed to build things when they have a job down in London and people don't go to surgeries? I hate to say this, but unless you have a better way to get people to vote for us other than going "stuff will get worse" and "We can improve things" because people don't believe in the latter at all. I have seen people refuse point blank to accept that things will improve, cynicism (or faux cynicism) has hollowed out a lot of people and I don't think there is much we can do about it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 22:08
|
|
|
Pesmerga posted:Interesting. I definitely need to read more into it. Democratic confederacy could be something to consider with the UK. Ecology of Freedom is in the OP.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 22:20
|
|
|
The thing about nationalism is that the electorate, to all intents and purposes, is the nation. If you can't convincingly say that your policies will make things better for the people you're asking to vote for you, then what in God's name are you doing in parliamentary politics? You're literally just saying you'll make the place you want to be in charge of better if you win. That's it. The idea that we have to cede that basic principle to the far right is loving daft, and incredibly self-defeating. Can you genuinely not come up with an argument for why having black people around is good for the country? Can you not come up with a reason why gay marriage is good for the country? Why should we accept the bullshit argument that diversity and equality is a drain on our society? That's progressive nationalism right there - believing that social justice and economic justice will help the people you're asking to vote for you, and will help the society you want to run. It's the basic principle that Labour, as a left-wing political party in the country of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, is designed to operate off.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 22:28
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:The thing about nationalism is that the electorate, to all intents and purposes, is the nation. If you can't convincingly say that your policies will make things better for the people you're asking to vote for you, then what in God's name are you doing in parliamentary politics? You're literally just saying you'll make the place you want to be in charge of better if you win. That's it. The idea that we have to cede that basic principle to the far right is loving daft, and incredibly self-defeating. Can you genuinely not come up with an argument for why having black people around is good for the country? Can you not come up with a reason why gay marriage is good for the country? Why should we accept the bullshit argument that diversity and equality is a drain on our society? This is kind of what I was aiming at with my wittering. That and this: https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status/1211690417948893186
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 22:35
|
|
|
Those Xmas lectures are on and they're talking some wild shite about AI I know they're meant to be fun and a basic intro, but they at least shouldn't be promoting the kind of magical thinking that surrounds the topic. The bit about replacing judges with AIs trained on case law files "because the mathematical formula doesn't have a bias" was extremely  they even had one of those Pepper robots out to sell the idea, v dystopian
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 22:37
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:The thing about nationalism is that the electorate, to all intents and purposes, is the nation. If you can't convincingly say that your policies will make things better for the people you're asking to vote for you, then what in God's name are you doing in parliamentary politics? You're literally just saying you'll make the place you want to be in charge of better if you win. That's it. The idea that we have to cede that basic principle to the far right is loving daft, and incredibly self-defeating. Can you genuinely not come up with an argument for why having black people around is good for the country? Can you not come up with a reason why gay marriage is good for the country? Why should we accept the bullshit argument that diversity and equality is a drain on our society? I would object to the notion that any of those things have to, or even should be, judged by what they contribute to the country. I don't give a poo poo about whether or not they're good for the country, they're important because of people, not the country. Especially as a lot of the things I would want are actively harmful to the country, I want things that dismantle the way the country is run, that rob it of power, that hamper its ability to inflict itself on people's lives. The country is the thing that is looking to round up travellers, the country is the thing that's trying to kill everyone with a disability. The country hates us. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Dec 30, 2019 |
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 22:38
|
|
|
baka kaba posted:Those Xmas lectures are on and they're talking some wild shite about AI Jesus I hope that's a lead in to the discussion about the inherent biases in algorithm design, or loving youubers are doing better lectures about AI.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 22:45
|
|
|
baka kaba posted:The bit about replacing judges with AIs trained on case law files "because the mathematical formula doesn't have a bias" was extremely [it is the n word in all caps]
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 22:49
|
|
|
On the whole patriotism thing, people are talking past each other - nobody here's pushing the idea of chasing the current idea of patriotism or nationalism for votes, that's obviously a terrible idea even if it would work (it wouldn't). That's just Controls on Immigration again the idea is to redefine the idea of what this country is, as good things - having something good to say about Britain, infusing the identity with leftist values, both as a way to bring people with you as well as a way to head off loyalty test attacks. Like it or not, Britain is a thing that exists and Labour wants to run it, and that identity means a lot to people - and not just people who think that imperialism was extremely good and hearing a foreign accent is an ATTACK ON ARE WAY OF LIFE the point isn't to win over right wing assholes, it's to get back the people who usually vote Labour, the non-voters, and to make leftism as broadly appealing as it should be - and like it or not that's an uphill struggle because of all the negative messaging people have been getting, including the idea that the left is anti-british and can't be trusted. And this is all projection until we know exactly what RLB has in mind, but there's nothing inherently bad about subverting the British identity for positive purposes, so long as it remains embedded in those core progressive ideas and doesn't become cheerleading for BRITANE no matter what's happening
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 22:51
|
|
|
I fed this robot all of human meme culture and it's started farting along to Mozart.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 22:54
|
|
|
baka kaba posted:On the whole patriotism thing, people are talking past each other - nobody here's pushing the idea of chasing the current idea of patriotism or nationalism for votes, that's obviously a terrible idea even if it would work (it wouldn't). That's just Controls on Immigration again I very much agree with this.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 22:56
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:Jesus I hope that's a lead in to the discussion about the inherent biases in algorithm design, or loving youubers are doing better lectures about AI. heck no they're all over the place, that was one of the longest bits I saw and they finished with "obviously you wouldn't have the robot in the courtroom, just the unbiased software that runs on it" I noped out when they briefly mentioned fake news and immediately jumped to a string quartet playing two bits of music one by an AI something something Markov chains. The closest they came to saying don't blindly trust AI was saying you have to train it on the "right data" or it might not recognise every kind of shoe
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 22:56
|
|
|
The left just needs a Funnyhair Sillyman and a catchy slogan to woo the electorate Also since nobody seems to care about actual humans who are suffering, what about really pushing the association of Tories with extremely graphic images of fox hunting or something
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 22:59
|
|
|
cadaver. posted:The left just needs a Funnyhair Sillyman and a catchy slogan to woo the electorate I have just the person his name is Jeremy he has a funny hat and he says 'for the many not the few'
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 23:05
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:I have just the person his name is Jeremy he has a funny hat and he says 'for the many not the few' Actually I don't think that... We. Regret. To. Inform. You. He. Is. An. Antisemite.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 23:07
|
|
|
The Sun says: gently caress OFF BACK TO GERMANIASTAN MR FUNNYHERR!
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 23:11
|
|
|
Braggart posted:The Sun says: gently caress OFF BACK TO GERMANIASTAN MR FUNNYHERR! Don't misgender the queen like that please.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 23:12
|
|
|
Rarity posted:Solidarity Fund update: We currently have 7 people who have nominated themselves for the fund committee. We're looking to fill 5 spots so it would be really great if we had a few more people come forward to give everyone a decent set of options for voting. Anyone who's interested please get in touch with myself before the end of the year! Thank you!
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 23:14
|
|
|
Miftan posted:Don't misgender the queen like that please. Aren't their pronouns one when speaking the the personal capacity and we when speaking in the capacity of their hat?
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 23:19
|
|
|
I said it before, and nobody really argued - Almost everyone here in favour of nationalising the railways would call them British Rail again, and that's a miniature version of nationalism, it's possible to say "hey, this is good, and is what we want the world to see as represents us"
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 23:30
|
|
|
Guavanaut posted:Does the queen have a single gender? she's got two birthdays so anything is possible
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 23:30
|
|
|
How can a country ruled by a woman with two birthdays who is also a hat, a stick, the fount of all laws, and every preceding monarch be so full of TERFs?
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 23:34
|
|
|
Julio Cruz posted:she's got two birthdays so anything is possible yeah they all have two birthdays of course, egg-laid-day and out-of-egg-day
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 23:35
|
|
|
I've really been enjoying completely disconnecting from politics. God it's been good to just recharge my batteries. I have money in my bank account and instead of reading heavy non-fiction I've been bingereading the absolute trash that is Tom Clancy and it's all just such a nice time. Come the new year I will absolutely be back to angry politically obsessed but for now probably until the Labour leadership election starts just doing my best to ignore it has been a delight and I recommend it. On the plus side, I've been reminded why I use Twitter https://twitter.com/OwsWills/status/1191124813651357697?s=20 forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Dec 30, 2019 |
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 23:36
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:I have just the person his name is Jeremy he has a funny hat and he says 'for the many not the few' Not sufficiently buffoonish, allotment tendin falafel eatin ways are too sophisticate for are engerlish salt of the earth types
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2019 23:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 19:24 |
|
|
OwlFancier posted:I would object to the notion that any of those things have to, or even should be, judged by what they contribute to the country. I don't give a poo poo about whether or not they're good for the country, they're important because of people, not the country. This is a principled position, but to be honest with yourself it’s also a very unpopular one. Even a fairly mild form of this position was poison to Jeremy Corbyn. As Darth Walrus said, the electorate is the nation. I don’t think it’s wrong at all to take a position that we will create socialism in the UK first, or that it’s the priority of a Labour government to make life better for people in these islands. We can I think take it for granted that a decently left wing Labour government wouldn’t throw the rest of the world under the bus the same way Tories would, without making that a central plank of policy.
|
|
#
?
Dec 31, 2019 00:00
|
|
