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I remember the president of Iran using the London protests to troll Cameron. “Hmm, yes, we remember you telling us we should ~respect the will of the people~ and ~implement democratic reform~. I dunno, maybe you guys could try that?” 
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Dec 31, 2019 09:17
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Yinlock posted:his poll numbers actually tended to rise fairly naturally before the media swept in with another 200 "CORBYN HATES JEWS" stories it's genuinely sad that that poo poo worked like it really says something about the credulousness of the average englishman
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Dec 31, 2019 09:48
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Sneaks McDevious posted:Cross posting from the UK thread. someone buy it
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Dec 31, 2019 09:49
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Jazerus posted:it's genuinely sad that that poo poo worked
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Dec 31, 2019 13:05
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A Buttery Pastry posted:It did double duty as a dogwhistle for "Corbyn doesn't hate Muslims" to the people who think antisemitism is fine/good. Yeah so many Corbyn anti-semitism stories were illustrated with pictures of him next to scary looking Muslims.
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Dec 31, 2019 15:52
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so now that it’s over, was the Anti-Semitism campaign vs Corbyn what really did him in? or was it more his approach to Brexit? He seemed like a great leader and a fine politician but the muckraking done to him seemed legendary, even by US standards. I also tried to explore his Brexit Strategy for like 2-3 days and felt like I couldn’t get a simple read of it from UK news or Twitter, why was his Brexit strategy so unpopular? or was it popular and UK news didn’t give it appropriate coverage so the misinformation took over?
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Dec 31, 2019 15:56
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Jazerus posted:it's genuinely sad that that poo poo worked when every news outlet pushes it you don't even need to be particularly credulous. even relatively critical outlets like the guardian were all aboard the smear train on this issue, and ut was fraught enough that people were getting suspended for saying stuff like 'we are being too apologetic about this'. regardless, it doesn't seem to have mattered that much on its own, but feeding into the maelstrom of bullshit around corbyn obviously hurts him
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Dec 31, 2019 16:00
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Bust Rodd posted:so now that it’s over, was the Anti-Semitism The parties depend on the press to get their messaging out. Labour had a plan for brexit and it was very simple, a referendum on the deal with an option to cancel brexit. The media then pretended that this was overly complex and that Labour had no position. Consider the UK a case study in how private press is never going to work as the owners of said press are rich and one of the parties is about addressing wealth inequality. Unless you get the fabled 'good guy rich person who has got rich in order to collapse the system from inside' then you'll get what happened this time: Every single piece of press media uniting against one party. Yeah the guardian came out on Labour's side, 2 days before the election. A pathetically obvious attempt to save their 'reputation' while doing all they can to sink Corbyn.
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Dec 31, 2019 16:04
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Bust Rodd posted:so now that it’s over, was the Anti-Semitism he refused to say 'in' or 'out' and the party's position kept shifting to accommodate changes in polling and internal struggles. basically the party was running in all directions, and corbyn lacked credibility either way he could've gone - leavers will tend to prefer Mr Leave campaigning on something concrete, and corbyn's 7/10 on europe, poisoning him to the broken-brained liberal FBPE types. in the end, corbyn's strategy relied on johnson being unable to get a deal due to internal opposition and clearly did not count on johnson jettisoning his own majority to negotiate something strictly worse than may's deal. once that happened, labour clearly did not know what to do
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Dec 31, 2019 16:07
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Bust Rodd posted:so now that it’s over, was the Anti-Semitism His Brexit strategy was unpopular because he went to great lengths to explicitly support neither leave nor remain. He completely dodged the question in interviews. This meant that in the case of a voter voting based on Brexit (you know, the cause of this entire election) no one would ever vote labour. A leaver would vote Tory or Brexit, while a remainer would be likely to vote Libdem, Green, or (if available) SNP. The plan had no real deographic of people it was catering to; it was just sort of there. I honestly believe this was far more the cause of his downfall than any antisemitism attacks, since I really don't think anyone outside of some garbage reporters even cared.
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Dec 31, 2019 16:08
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yeah I think quite a few left leaning people were shocked how bad the behaviour of the BBC and guardian were
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Dec 31, 2019 16:08
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the issue really wasn't so much with labour's actual position, which was in isolation areasonable compromise, as it was about the sheer toxicity of the brexit debate in the british public
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Dec 31, 2019 16:09
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The Leave-supporting Labour voters in the north who cared that much about racism didn't switch to the Brexit party or the Tories. They targeted 'Workington Man' fixated on political correctness gone mad and who probably had never met anyone Jewish or seen a synagogue. It wasn't direct like 'he hates Jews, I'm a Tory now' This bus was targeted at one of those seats and even though it implies Corbyn is a child molester it conspicuously does not mention anti-Semitism at all:  marktheando posted:Yeah so many Corbyn anti-semitism stories were illustrated with pictures of him next to scary looking Muslims. 'He defends terrorists' Ague Proof has issued a correction as of 16:14 on Dec 31, 2019 |
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Dec 31, 2019 16:11
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V. Illych L. posted:the issue really wasn't so much with labour's actual position, which was in isolation areasonable compromise, as it was about the sheer toxicity of the brexit debate in the british public Why would someone vote for a compromise when there are parties running on the position they'd prefer outright? If Labour took the compromise position on any other issue and said they'd, for example, implement some but not all of the Tories' austerity measures, you'd rightfully skewer them for it. Compromising and blindly following polls is how you get the Democratic Party.
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Dec 31, 2019 16:24
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It's really the wimps fault for thinking they could do a take-backsies on brexit IMO
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Dec 31, 2019 16:30
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AnoHito posted:Why would someone vote for a compromise when there are parties running on the position they'd prefer outright? the problem here is that labour has genuinely euroskeptic elements in then and cannot unambiguously come out in favour of the EU without pissing off a lot of people for very good reasons, and moving in a lexit direction would likely have it really isn't comparable to austerity at all imo - for one, there was a referendum (ill-conceived or no) generally recognised as legitimate, and for another labour's position on the EU is genuinely deeply ambivalent. no left-wing party can credibly claim to challenge neoliberalism while being uncritically pro-EU, for instance, but euroskepticism in britain has taken on a deeply chauvinist character with which it cannot credibly align. as remainers whipped themselves into a frenzy and forced the labour party to accede to their demands, they still weren't happy because only revocation - a manifestly anti-democratic notion - was going to be good enough for them. these are the people who are committed pro-EU types, and a good amount of labour's new membership tend in this direction, probably a good amount of whom are now pretending that they were always in favour of a clearer lexit direction. revocation was a no-go for 80% of the population, and anything between that and the full johnson was inevitably going to lose the credibility battle - and neither of those positions were actually available to labour. possibly they could've made a decent case for a people's vote earlier on had they been able to crystallise on that position, but that was very hard because the party, again, was very divided and corbyn either couldn't or wouldn't run as tight a ship as some others
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Dec 31, 2019 16:59
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V. Illych L. posted:when every news outlet pushes it you don't even need to be particularly credulous. even relatively critical outlets like the guardian were all aboard the smear train on this issue, and ut was fraught enough that people were getting suspended for saying stuff like 'we are being too apologetic about this'. regardless, it doesn't seem to have mattered that much on its own, but feeding into the maelstrom of bullshit around corbyn obviously hurts him
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Dec 31, 2019 17:00
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AnoHito posted:Why would someone vote for a compromise when there are parties running on the position they'd prefer outright? Because Lib Dems will lose and you get an even worse outcome.
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Dec 31, 2019 17:26
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It's almost as if allowing a general election before Brexit was sorted was a loving stupid idea.
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Dec 31, 2019 18:12
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UK love to vote
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Dec 31, 2019 18:13
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AnoHito posted:Why would someone vote for a compromise when there are parties running on the position they'd prefer outright? That's not quite what was going on here since the policy is decided at conference by the membership. The old Labour position, pushed by Corbyn was to do a Brexit, but keep most everything the same, so they can say they respected the referendum while making everything only slightly worse. But the party members always hated the whole thing and only the 60+ demographic was really into it. For the parliamentary Labour party it was always mainly a stick to beat the Leadership with. So after the LibDems made gains in the EU elections the balance of power shifted and Labour switched to what used to be the remain position. Of course, since basically everyone here is dealing in bad faith the LibDems then switched to outright cancellation, but not really, as the only real Remain position, as usually pushed by the "liberal" media and Labour MPs. So now Corbyn gets to defend a policy he doesn't believe in while everyone calls him a traitor, the Brexit party acts as the conservative front organization it is and only runs in Labour seats, the LibDems and the Greens do a tactical remain alliance that does nothing except hand the Tories a few more seats and Labour MPs he has compromised with for years to keep them on board resigne because of "anti-semetism".
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Dec 31, 2019 18:34
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Ayn Randi posted:decorum was the greatest trick the devil ever pulled lmao
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Dec 31, 2019 19:41
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https://youtu.be/O5LJBSMfGbs No, Tyrone, get out! GET OUUUUUUUUT!!!!!
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Dec 31, 2019 19:54
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If these things you all say are true, then it's probably for the best Corbyn resigns, since it looks like he either quite fatally couldn't control his party, or he got completely outmaneuvered by Boris Johnson. Either one would appear to disqualify him for the job. I think I heard that at least his successor will probably be equally left, so here's to hoping for it.
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Dec 31, 2019 21:03
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Bust Rodd posted:so now that it’s over, was the Anti-Semitism he genuinely hosed up on brexit but the anti semitism smear train didn't help any
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Dec 31, 2019 21:07
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AnoHito posted:If these things you all say are true, then it's probably for the best Corbyn resigns, since it looks like he either quite fatally couldn't control his party, or he got completely outmaneuvered by Boris Johnson. Either one would appear to disqualify him for the job. the play made was, realistically, the only one available. there's no reason to believe that anyone else could've maneuvered it better; labour's electorate was deeply split on this issue no matter what. once johnson proved himself willing to sacrifice the union for brexit and the press proved itself unwilling to call him on it labour was hosed unless they could get the election to be about something else, which they tried
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Dec 31, 2019 21:17
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It still blows mind that Americanized healthcare didn't terrify your voters
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Dec 31, 2019 21:24
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Pomp posted:It still blows mind that Americanized healthcare didn't terrify your voters Boris is a legend
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Dec 31, 2019 21:26
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Pomp posted:It still blows mind that Americanized healthcare didn't terrify your voters it did and it will, just not enough and not in time
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Dec 31, 2019 21:32
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Pomp posted:It still blows mind that Americanized healthcare didn't terrify your voters they have no referential experience to even comprehend it
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Dec 31, 2019 21:57
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V. Illych L. posted:the play made was, realistically, the only one available. there's no reason to believe that anyone else could've maneuvered it better; labour's electorate was deeply split on this issue no matter what. once johnson proved himself willing to sacrifice the union for brexit and the press proved itself unwilling to call him on it labour was hosed unless they could get the election to be about something else, which they tried eh going all-in on either remain or leave would probably have still led to a loss but a less bad one, corbyn did gently caress that one up the lesson here is never triangulate
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Dec 31, 2019 21:59
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Yinlock posted:eh going all-in on either remain or leave would probably have still led to a loss but a less bad one, corbyn did gently caress that one up they really, really needed to go leave, remain was a total mistake- the things that happened everyone saw coming. remain was the minority in the referendum and grew exponentially less popular - particularly with less engaged voters, unfortunately - as it got delayed over and over again. the concessions labour did to the hard remain hosed them over entirely for no gain, the libs still ran in the city seats on a ultra remain ticket and still split the vote. i don't think there's a way past this since it was a democratic party decision and the membership was/is still pretty remain. but remain remains unpopular with the wider electorate.
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Dec 31, 2019 22:16
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Pomp posted:It still blows mind that Americanized healthcare didn't terrify your voters Most of them think it's just Labour scaremongering, that the Tories won't sell off the NHS. That Labour have been saying the NHS is in danger for years, and it's still here.
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Dec 31, 2019 22:30
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Pomp posted:It still blows mind that Americanized healthcare didn't terrify your voters Tory voters have collectively had no consequences for their actions for so long, due to people desperately trying to save them from themselves, that they well and truly believe that everything will work out fine forever no matter what they do
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Dec 31, 2019 22:37
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AnoHito posted:If these things you all say are true, then it's probably for the best Corbyn resigns, since it looks like he either quite fatally couldn't control his party, or he got completely outmaneuvered by Boris Johnson. Either one would appear to disqualify him for the job. BoJo outmaneuvered him only in the sense that he put it in plain and simple terms: "Get Brexit Done." there was nothing as snappy from Corbyn or Labour
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Dec 31, 2019 22:42
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Pomp posted:It still blows mind that Americanized healthcare didn't terrify your voters If you've had everything served to you your entire life and you've been very comfortable you've heard people talking about various nightmare scenarios for years but none of them have ever affected you. You are therefore quite sure that it's all just scaremongering and none of these worst-cases will ever come to pass (you don't realise they always have and do, but only to the most vulnerable, who are obvs the targets of voter suppression).
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Dec 31, 2019 22:49
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So how badly is boris gonna screw voting rights?
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Dec 31, 2019 22:57
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Yinlock posted:eh going all-in on either remain or leave would probably have still led to a loss but a less bad one, corbyn did gently caress that one up no both of those would've been catastrophic and either ended with a completely gutted party membership or an election result in the twenties. leave labour was polled, remember, and they bled *heavily* to the lib dems
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Jan 1, 2020 00:25
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V. Illych L. posted:no both of those would've been catastrophic and either ended with a completely gutted party membership or an election result in the twenties. leave labour was polled, remember, and they bled *heavily* to the lib dems they bled heavily because of the triangulation
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Jan 1, 2020 00:26
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Blackhawk posted:If you've had everything served to you your entire life and you've been very comfortable you've heard people talking about various nightmare scenarios for years but none of them have ever affected you. You are therefore quite sure that it's all just scaremongering and none of these worst-cases will ever come to pass (you don't realise they always have and do, but only to the most vulnerable, who are obvs the targets of voter suppression). also if they do come to pass, it's the fault of foreigners taking YOUR medicine
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Jan 1, 2020 00:26
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