UKMT January 2020 - Jess Flops - The Something Awful Forums

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT January 2020 - Jess Flops

Purple Prince: Aug 20, 2011

thespaceinvader posted:

In practice, it doesn't loving matter that a pensioner's pension comes out of the dividends of a capitalist's investment, it matters that the other dividends of the capitalist's investment persuaded the pensioner to vote for the toff who's going to sell the NHS the pensioner needs to not die of flu next winter..

It surely does matter when it's legal for your pension fund to send you letters saying things like "IF CORBYN WINS KISS YOUR PENSION GOODBYE".

This may or may not be true and it would depend on how financially literate the pensioner is but either way, once you discount the influence of material factors on people's views you are no longer doing a Marxist analysis.

# ? Jan 2, 2020 19:21

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# ? May 23, 2024 12:19

goddamnedtwisto: Dec 31, 2004; If you ask me about the mole people in the London Underground, I WILL be forced to kill you; Fun Shoe

Jose posted:

Actually fixing the country you've invaded after you've blown everything up would never sell the bloodthirsty American ruling class

No but giving multi-billion dollar contracts to Haliburton and KBR to build and maintain your oppression palaces is a relatively easy one.

# ? Jan 2, 2020 19:23

thespaceinvader: Mar 30, 2011; The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!

Purple Prince posted:

It surely does matter when it's legal for your pension fund to send you letters saying things like "IF CORBYN WINS KISS YOUR PENSION GOODBYE".

This may or may not be true and it would depend on how financially literate the pensioner is but either way, once you discount the influence of material factors on people's views you are no longer doing a Marxist analysis.

It doesn't make the pensioner a capitalist themselves (to bring it back to the original thing I took exception to), if capital has an additional avenue to propagandise to them because of their status as a pensioner.

If what you're saying is that it shouldn't be legal for pension funds to use their capital for propaganda or lobbying then you're not going to get abny arguments from me.

But it also shouldn't be legal for anyone to be a billionaire, for anyone to lie in an election campaign, for anyone to under-pay their workers, for any profit-making corporation to own a water source, etc etc etc etc etc.

What should or should not in principle be legal is kind of irrelevant to discuss when it de facto (whether or not it is de jure) IS legal for pensions to propagandise to their beneficiaries.

# ? Jan 2, 2020 19:27

Azza Bamboo: Apr 7, 2018; THUNDERDOME LOSER 2021

Why not just cut out the pension fund part and make it illegal for anyone not socialist to propagandise? May as well get to the point rather than trying to police industry's communications separately.

# ? Jan 2, 2020 19:33

thespaceinvader: Mar 30, 2011; The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!

Azza Bamboo posted:

Why not just cut out the pension fund part and make it illegal for anyone not socialist to propagandise? May as well get to the point rather than trying to police industry's communications separately.

I'd prefer to make it not legal for anyone at all to propagandise, personally.

# ? Jan 2, 2020 19:34

Purple Prince: Aug 20, 2011

Azza Bamboo posted:

Why not just cut out the pension fund part and make it illegal for anyone not socialist to propagandise? May as well get to the point rather than trying to police industry's communications separately.

I did say we were using the Maoist method :getin:

# ? Jan 2, 2020 19:37

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

thespaceinvader posted:

It doesn't make the pensioner a capitalist themselves (to bring it back to the original thing I took exception to), if capital has an additional avenue to propagandise to them because of their status as a pensioner.

Capital having more avenues for propagandizing doesn't mean a pensioner can't be a capitalist themselves. Or, if not strictly capitalists, a class unto themselves whose material interests in many ways align far more with capital than they do the working class they used to be part of.

thespaceinvader posted:

In principle, a pensioner is living off money they earned, regardless of whether it's a state or a private pension. In practice they're living off money other people are currently earning, regardless of whether it's a state or private pension.

The state pension is essentially analogous to the retiree being a dependent of their younger, working, relatives - except dependents and their supporters have been bundled together to create a fairer system. But, as I wrote above and before, the state pension system does complicate things and aligns their interests closer to capital than they would in a familial dependent-supporter relationship, at least when the state itself is a capitalist construct.

thespaceinvader posted:

I'd prefer to make it not legal for anyone at all to propagandise, personally.

So, no more interpersonal communication?

# ? Jan 2, 2020 19:46

Pistol_Pete: Sep 15, 2007; Oven Wrangler

I work for a wealth management firm and think it's pretty funny that rich people's cash is paying my salary, while we provide a service to them that's inferior to the results they'd get if they just stuck their cash in a tracker fund and left it there. That is my capital/ labor story.

# ? Jan 2, 2020 19:51

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

radmonger posted:

Except the same is true of billionaires (tho maybe not Bond villains). A system with certain properties has those properties. Some of those inside it would prefer it to have different properties. Specifically, ones that let them eat in the morning and sleep at night.

There may or may not be a route by which they can organise to active that goal.

There's a pretty big gulf between the Victorian slumlord and the modern billionaire, in that the old woman who is faced with the choice between starvation and slum sublets would be materially improved by social security, whereas there's pretty much nothing that can materially improve the billionaire but further expropriation from the working classes and global south. Nobody said "you're old and crippled, your husband died in the mines, so now your only choice is to starve to death or become the CEO of a dot com that aggressively leverages the market."

# ? Jan 2, 2020 19:58

radmonger: Jun 6, 2011

thespaceinvader posted:

It doesn't make the pensioner a capitalist themselves (to bring it back to the original thing I took exception to), if capital has an additional avenue to propagandise to them because of their status as a pensioner.

What matters is not the delivery method of the propaganda, but whether it is objectively true. Or, if you prefer, compatible with the lived experience of those it is aimed at.

# ? Jan 2, 2020 20:03

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Guavanaut posted:

Nobody said "you're old and crippled, your husband died in the mines, so now your only choice is to starve to death or become the CEO of a dot com that aggressively leverages the market."

I'm fairly sure Jo Swinson said that and that this is what the skills wallets were for.

# ? Jan 2, 2020 20:06

radmonger: Jun 6, 2011

Guavanaut posted:

There's a pretty big gulf between the Victorian slumlord and the modern billionaire, in that the old woman who is faced with the choice between starvation and slum sublets would be materially improved by social security, whereas there's pretty much nothing that can materially improve the billionaire but further expropriation from the working classes and global south. Nobody said "you're old and crippled, your husband died in the mines, so now your only choice is to starve to death or become the CEO of a dot com that aggressively leverages the market."

A paperclip appears:

You seem to be making some kind of argument about who is going to Heaven.

Would you prefer to instead have a discussion about how society should be organised?

# ? Jan 2, 2020 20:08

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

I'm saying it's fine to resent Jeff Bezos in a way that it wouldn't be to resent the widowed slumlord in the 1890s.

The 1890s equivalent would be resenting John Rockefeller or something.

# ? Jan 2, 2020 21:08

Braggart: Nov 10, 2011; always thank the rock hider

Guavanaut posted:

Same way you develop alternative philosophies when most philosophy was only possible because of monstrous acts.

On the shoulders of assholes.

Wouldn't that be the hips?

# ? Jan 2, 2020 21:17

Braggart: Nov 10, 2011; always thank the rock hider

goddamnedtwisto posted:

The Graun seems very nervous about the idea of people boycotting newspapers for printing utter bullshit for some reason

Your futile misguided protest will have no effect and you are silly for thinking it will. As an alternative, try doing nothing and voting with your feet by reading the Guardian.

# ? Jan 2, 2020 21:19

Firos: Apr 30, 2007; Staying abreast of the latest developments in jam communism

Jose posted:

He writes that sort of poo poo all the time and the nyt just today was whitewashing that navy seal who did a load of war crimes so bad that his squad were the ones to report him

Pretty sure this is the same guy whose squad had to keep loving with his sights because he kept successfully shooting so many civilians.

# ? Jan 2, 2020 21:32

Venomous: Nov 7, 2011

Guavanaut posted:

Does being a Maoist require praising Mao personally? (Unrelated: Does it even follow as a train of thought in postindustrial societies?)

I don't have a secret shrine to Josip Broz Tito in my under stairs cupboard or anything*, but I think Titoism had a lot of useful thought in it for multinational socialist states in a post-Soviet world.

*

These are fair points and no, in theory authcoms like Maoists and Titoists don't have to praise the dictators they align themselves with, however:

Guavanaut posted:

You can be a Stalinist without praising Stalin himself,

in practice this part is just not true, as evidenced by 99.9% of Stalinists being Stalin apologists. I can't speak for Maoists and Titoists, and I concede that you may be right on that, but I cannot trust Stalinists not to be awful people.

# ? Jan 2, 2020 21:34

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

Venomous posted:

These are fair points and no, in theory authcoms like Maoists and Titoists don't have to praise the dictators they align themselves with, however:

in practice this part is just not true, as evidenced by 99.9% of Stalinists being Stalin apologists. I can't speak for Maoists and Titoists, and I concede that you may be right on that, but I cannot trust Stalinists not to be awful people.

What even is Stalinism without the cult of Stalin? He had his political theory stuff ghostwritten, he was never much of an intellectual.

# ? Jan 2, 2020 22:04

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Venomous posted:

These are fair points and no, in theory authcoms like Maoists and Titoists don't have to praise the dictators they align themselves with, however:

in practice this part is just not true, as evidenced by 99.9% of Stalinists being Stalin apologists. I can't speak for Maoists and Titoists, and I concede that you may be right on that, but I cannot trust Stalinists not to be awful people.

Yeah maybe Trotskyites are the better example, they tend to adhere more to publicism and rapism.

Or Christians who don't listen to a drat thing Christ said. :v:

feedmegin posted:

What even is Stalinism without the cult of Stalin? He had his political theory stuff ghostwritten, he was never much of an intellectual.

Socialism in one country and collectivized ag basically. Which can run the gamut from "socialism in one country is the only practical form in the era of countries and borders, but we should allow comrades to come join us" to "I'm a big nazbol oval office". I thought there were a few Labour party guys who described themselves as Stalinists without having the hero worship but they were possibly being ironic (or had terrible opinions in private).

Braggart posted:

Wouldn't that be the hips?

# ? Jan 2, 2020 22:09

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

feedmegin posted:

What even is Stalinism without the cult of Stalin? He had his political theory stuff ghostwritten, he was never much of an intellectual.

If you want proper socialism in your political theory, it has to be written by a ghost.

# ? Jan 2, 2020 22:11

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Something something spectre of communism.

# ? Jan 2, 2020 22:18

baka kaba: Jul 19, 2003; PLEASE ASK ME, THE SELF-PROFESSED NO #1 PAUL CATTERMOLE FAN IN THE SOMETHING AWFUL S-CLUB 7 MEGATHREAD, TO NAME A SINGLE SONG BY HIS EXCELLENT NU-METAL SIDE PROJECT, SKUA, AND IF I CAN'T PLEASE TELL ME TO
EAT SHIT

Jose posted:

He writes that sort of poo poo all the time and the nyt just today was whitewashing that navy seal who did a load of war crimes so bad that his squad were the ones to report him

they're also up to this

https://twitter.com/nyt_diff/status/1212528830218407936

# ? Jan 2, 2020 23:08

WhatEvil: Jun 6, 2004; Can't get no luck.

There's an actual reasonably decent article here from Mark Steel:

https://twitter.com/mrmarksteel/status/1212855619251822592?s=20

Of course it's heaped with irony but it does make some good points.

# ? Jan 2, 2020 23:56

happyhippy: Feb 21, 2005; Playing games, watching movies, owning goons. 'sup; Pillbug

WhatEvil posted:

Mark Steel

https://marksteelinfo.com/recordings/

Hes giving away some of his old programs here.
I would STRONGLY RECOMMEND as in LISTEN NOW to his Mark Steel Lectures.
It has old political jokes sure but the content is loving amazing.

# ? Jan 3, 2020 00:19

WhatEvil: Jun 6, 2004; Can't get no luck.

Oh cool yeah thanks I'll check them out.

Also thread might like this:

https://twitter.com/MirrorPolitics/status/1212864465252888581?s=20

# ? Jan 3, 2020 00:22

Private Speech: Mar 30, 2011; I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.

I like this very good & cool graphic from a BBC article (no the article is not about the merits thereof, but rather rental bike thefts in general).

Now, yes, it was made by a Chinese company, but FFS why did they think that was a good graphic to accompany the article.

# ? Jan 3, 2020 00:36

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

WhatEvil posted:

Oh cool yeah thanks I'll check them out.

Also thread might like this:

https://twitter.com/MirrorPolitics/status/1212864465252888581?s=20

Feels like the melts are really getting behind Keir.

# ? Jan 3, 2020 00:44

HJB: Feb 16, 2011; I can't get enough of are Dan

I like that the Mirror just threw a poo poo-stirring quote in there from the Mail, for a laugh.

# ? Jan 3, 2020 00:47

Fuligin: Oct 27, 2010; wait what the fuck??

feedmegin posted:

What even is Stalinism without the cult of Stalin? He had his political theory stuff ghostwritten, he was never much of an intellectual.

stalin was absolutely an intellectual

# ? Jan 3, 2020 00:53

Braggart: Nov 10, 2011; always thank the rock hider

The Heil posted:

EU must get real: In just weeks the EU will lose 10% of its income, 12% of its population, and 13% of its total GDP � because Britain is leaving... so it's time for them to be realistic about a trade deal, writes DOMINIC SANDBROOK

Even now, with exactly four weeks to go until we leave the EU, some people are still in denial.

Yes that's the first sentence. No it's not referring to the headline.

quote:

Brexit, European Commission vice-president Frans Timmermans declared a few days ago, was �unnecessary�, and Britain would �always be welcome to come back�.

His words were met with wild applause from the dwindling band of unreconciled Remainers.

But in the wake of the General Election, almost all sane observers can see that the battle is over. At the end of this month, we will be out.

Although the past three years have seen torrents of ink spilled about the implications for Britain, there has been very little commentary about the consequences for the EU. [Except every loving article you run claiming the EU needs us more than we need them.]

And although ultra-Remainers like to pretend that any costs will be entirely one-way, the reality is rather different. [ironicat.gif]

On January 31, the EU will lose its second-largest economy, after Germany, and the fifth-largest economy in the world, representing about 13 per cent of its total GDP. It will lose its third most populous state, its most important military power and a significant source of diplomatic and cultural influence.

It will lose some �20 billion (�17 billion) a year in budget funding � about a tenth of its total income. The EU will also lose 12 per cent of its population, and its single largest, most dynamic city � London.

Lizard must wise up, it's about to lose 12 per cent of its bodyweight when its tail drops off, says tail.

quote:

For the past few years its negotiators told themselves British resolve would weaken eventually.

They spent months talking to arch-Remainers like Tony Blair, Lord Mandelson and Nick Clegg, who assured them that, in the end, the Leavers would blink and the Tories would be booted out of office.

In particular, EU insiders convinced themselves that former Commons Speaker, John Bercow, and his allies would see off Boris Johnson�s premiership, take control of Parliament and push through a second referendum, perhaps aided by the Labour Party. Soon, they said, the Brexit nightmare would be over.

Well, we know how that worked out. They had not taken into account the most immovable obstacle of all: the will of the British people.

So now the EU finds itself in an unprecedented situation, facing a newly elected Prime Minister with a whopping majority and a popular mandate to get the whole business done and dusted as quickly and ruthlessly as possible.

We've got our stabbed in the back myth, I think.

quote:

Britain is not going away. Indeed, most economic forecasts predict that, by the second half of the century, it will overtake Germany as the Continent�s most dynamic economy.

That's not what I've been hearing...

quote:

So it would make no sense for the EU to alienate an important trading partner by fighting over tiny details. Do countries like France, Germany, Holland and Ireland really want to leave their closest ally seething with resentment?

So unlike the previous decades of the UK seething with resentment inside the EU?

quote:

The most sensible thing, therefore, would be for the EU to give us a generous deal as quickly as possible. And if its negotiators need inspiration from history, they should look to Britain�s own record of far-sighted compromise.

As historians have pointed out, there is a precedent in the deal Britain offered its rebellious colonies after the American War of Independence in 1783, giving U.S. ships access to British ports and opening up vast areas of territory to U.S. expansion.

The deal was very unpopular with many British politicians, who thought we were giving too much away. But in the long run it worked to our advantage.

The U.S. was born in a spirit of optimism, rather than resentment, which made it much easier to rebuild our friendship.

Yeah we were best buds right after that war for independence they had with us. That's how it always goes. 1812? What happened in 1812?

Also, giving stuff away to America is good! Just preparing the ground for something...

quote:

Other post-imperial nations, such as Canada, Australia and New Zealand, were born in a similar spirit, which explains why our ties remain so close.

Just the white places.

quote:

And there is an even more striking example in South Africa, where Britain and the Dutch-speaking Boers fought a vicious war from 1899 to 1902.

Not only did the victorious British hand the Boers millions to rebuild their towns and cities, but we gave them self-government within five years and allowed South Africa to become an independent dominion in 1910, ruled by men who had once led the Boer armies.

As so often, such a fair-minded, far-sighted policy paid for itself. Within just a few years, South Africa�s fighting men were contributing bravely to the Allied effort in World War I, standing alongside the very men who had once been their enemies.

Whoa, okay, and the REALLY white place. This is all the article says about South Africa. You'd think there would be some other important things to mention.

quote:

I realise, of course, such generosity of spirit may stick in the craw of some Europeans.

...

In the long run, it will suit nobody in France and Germany to have a sulky, disaffected neighbour across the Channel, plotting revenge on its old partners.

...

Indeed, if we can leave with a decent deal, then within a few years our relations with Paris, Berlin and Brussels will probably be better than ever.

What, after all, is the alternative? Years of bickering and backbiting? How on earth would that be in Europe�s interests?

# ? Jan 3, 2020 01:05

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Braggart posted:

Whoa, okay, and the REALLY white place. This is all the article says about South Africa. You'd think there would be some other important things to mention.

South Africa got Namibia for WWI, the Afrikaners were still pissed at Britain, there was a growing ultranationalist movement in the 40s that started looking at that German guy for inspiration and then won a referendum by 52% that led to apartheid, a decades long border war, and becoming an international pariah state.

Can't see why you'd want to stare too hard at that.

# ? Jan 3, 2020 01:22

Chuka Umana: Apr 30, 2019; by sebmojo

I'm looking for a word or phrase that can encapsulate how I view today's politics. I see it as a constant barrage of awful things, but instead of it coming in dramatic change it's mostly become banal and too unnoticeable a at first for people to care. I need a word for both banal and awful.

# ? Jan 3, 2020 01:25

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

analbaws

# ? Jan 3, 2020 01:26

Jaeluni Asjil: Apr 18, 2018; Sorry I thought you were a landlord when I gave you your old avatar!

Chuka Umana posted:

I'm looking for a word or phrase that can encapsulate how I view today's politics. I see it as a constant barrage of awful things, but instead of it coming in dramatic change it's mostly become banal and too unnoticeable a at first for people to care. I need a word for both banal and awful.

Goltzfrosch.

I made it up. German is good at these mixed things. So then I thought of the boiling frog. And instead of just doing 'boiling frog' in German (kochender Frosch) I found out that German physiologist Friedrich Goltz demonstrated that a frog that has had its brain removed will remain in slowly heated water, but an intact frog attempted to escape the water when it reached 25 �C. I think that says something.

I used to follow Sibel Edmond's blog which used to be called "Boiling Frogs". I know she changed the name a couple of years ago but I have lost track now.

Ed: interesting stuff about boiling frogs experiments - definitely a metaphor!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog

Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Jan 3, 2020

# ? Jan 3, 2020 01:34

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

Chuka Umana posted:

I'm looking for a word or phrase that can encapsulate how I view today's politics. I see it as a constant barrage of awful things, but instead of it coming in dramatic change it's mostly become banal and too unnoticeable a at first for people to care. I need a word for both banal and awful.

You got them late-capitalism blues.

# ? Jan 3, 2020 01:43

Apraxin: Feb 22, 2006; General-Admiral

Welp, Trump just had Qassem Soleimani blown up in Baghdad, so in addition to all the other delights of a Johnson government Our Boys are probably heading back to the Middle East for Iraq War Round Three before spring.

Apraxin fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Jan 3, 2020

# ? Jan 3, 2020 02:40

Marenghi: Oct 16, 2008; Don't trust the liberals,
they will betray you

feedmegin posted:

What even is Stalinism without the cult of Stalin? He had his political theory stuff ghostwritten, he was never much of an intellectual.

Is that true. I thought his writings were his own, maybe helped in editing by others.

But I thought the idea that all his writing was done by others was western propaganda?

# ? Jan 3, 2020 02:51

AceClown: Sep 11, 2005

Well it's been real nice posting with you folks for all these years, see you on the other side of WW3...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-50979463

# ? Jan 3, 2020 04:44

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

Sure seems like it would've been a good time to have a pro-peace Prime Minister but never mind. I'm sure Boris won't do something staggeringly stupid like leap into helping America in Iran.

# ? Jan 3, 2020 04:49

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# ? May 23, 2024 12:19

Algol Star: Sep 6, 2010

People will be imagining a repeat of the Iraq war as well. As bad as that would be, war with Iran will be awful on a whole other level. We should have no part in it but I imagine Johnson is stupid enough to believe the US right's propaganda.

# ? Jan 3, 2020 05:15

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