|
thespaceinvader posted:In practice, it doesn't loving matter that a pensioner's pension comes out of the dividends of a capitalist's investment, it matters that the other dividends of the capitalist's investment persuaded the pensioner to vote for the toff who's going to sell the NHS the pensioner needs to not die of flu next winter.. It surely does matter when it's legal for your pension fund to send you letters saying things like "IF CORBYN WINS KISS YOUR PENSION GOODBYE". This may or may not be true and it would depend on how financially literate the pensioner is but either way, once you discount the influence of material factors on people's views you are no longer doing a Marxist analysis.
|
# ? Jan 2, 2020 19:21 |
|
|
# ? May 25, 2024 13:17 |
|
Jose posted:Actually fixing the country you've invaded after you've blown everything up would never sell the bloodthirsty American ruling class No but giving multi-billion dollar contracts to Haliburton and KBR to build and maintain your oppression palaces is a relatively easy one.
|
# ? Jan 2, 2020 19:23 |
|
Purple Prince posted:It surely does matter when it's legal for your pension fund to send you letters saying things like "IF CORBYN WINS KISS YOUR PENSION GOODBYE". It doesn't make the pensioner a capitalist themselves (to bring it back to the original thing I took exception to), if capital has an additional avenue to propagandise to them because of their status as a pensioner. If what you're saying is that it shouldn't be legal for pension funds to use their capital for propaganda or lobbying then you're not going to get abny arguments from me. But it also shouldn't be legal for anyone to be a billionaire, for anyone to lie in an election campaign, for anyone to under-pay their workers, for any profit-making corporation to own a water source, etc etc etc etc etc. What should or should not in principle be legal is kind of irrelevant to discuss when it de facto (whether or not it is de jure) IS legal for pensions to propagandise to their beneficiaries.
|
# ? Jan 2, 2020 19:27 |
|
Why not just cut out the pension fund part and make it illegal for anyone not socialist to propagandise? May as well get to the point rather than trying to police industry's communications separately.
|
# ? Jan 2, 2020 19:33 |
|
Azza Bamboo posted:Why not just cut out the pension fund part and make it illegal for anyone not socialist to propagandise? May as well get to the point rather than trying to police industry's communications separately. I'd prefer to make it not legal for anyone at all to propagandise, personally.
|
# ? Jan 2, 2020 19:34 |
|
Azza Bamboo posted:Why not just cut out the pension fund part and make it illegal for anyone not socialist to propagandise? May as well get to the point rather than trying to police industry's communications separately. I did say we were using the Maoist method
|
# ? Jan 2, 2020 19:37 |
|
thespaceinvader posted:It doesn't make the pensioner a capitalist themselves (to bring it back to the original thing I took exception to), if capital has an additional avenue to propagandise to them because of their status as a pensioner. thespaceinvader posted:In principle, a pensioner is living off money they earned, regardless of whether it's a state or a private pension. In practice they're living off money other people are currently earning, regardless of whether it's a state or private pension. thespaceinvader posted:I'd prefer to make it not legal for anyone at all to propagandise, personally.
|
# ? Jan 2, 2020 19:46 |
|
I work for a wealth management firm and think it's pretty funny that rich people's cash is paying my salary, while we provide a service to them that's inferior to the results they'd get if they just stuck their cash in a tracker fund and left it there. That is my capital/ labor story.
|
# ? Jan 2, 2020 19:51 |
|
radmonger posted:Except the same is true of billionaires (tho maybe not Bond villains). A system with certain properties has those properties. Some of those inside it would prefer it to have different properties. Specifically, ones that let them eat in the morning and sleep at night.
|
# ? Jan 2, 2020 19:58 |
|
thespaceinvader posted:It doesn't make the pensioner a capitalist themselves (to bring it back to the original thing I took exception to), if capital has an additional avenue to propagandise to them because of their status as a pensioner. What matters is not the delivery method of the propaganda, but whether it is objectively true. Or, if you prefer, compatible with the lived experience of those it is aimed at.
|
# ? Jan 2, 2020 20:03 |
|
Guavanaut posted:Nobody said "you're old and crippled, your husband died in the mines, so now your only choice is to starve to death or become the CEO of a dot com that aggressively leverages the market." I'm fairly sure Jo Swinson said that and that this is what the skills wallets were for.
|
# ? Jan 2, 2020 20:06 |
|
Guavanaut posted:There's a pretty big gulf between the Victorian slumlord and the modern billionaire, in that the old woman who is faced with the choice between starvation and slum sublets would be materially improved by social security, whereas there's pretty much nothing that can materially improve the billionaire but further expropriation from the working classes and global south. Nobody said "you're old and crippled, your husband died in the mines, so now your only choice is to starve to death or become the CEO of a dot com that aggressively leverages the market." A paperclip appears: You seem to be making some kind of argument about who is going to Heaven. Would you prefer to instead have a discussion about how society should be organised?
|
# ? Jan 2, 2020 20:08 |
|
I'm saying it's fine to resent Jeff Bezos in a way that it wouldn't be to resent the widowed slumlord in the 1890s. The 1890s equivalent would be resenting John Rockefeller or something.
|
# ? Jan 2, 2020 21:08 |
|
Guavanaut posted:Same way you develop alternative philosophies when most philosophy was only possible because of monstrous acts. Wouldn't that be the hips?
|
# ? Jan 2, 2020 21:17 |
|
goddamnedtwisto posted:The Graun seems very nervous about the idea of people boycotting newspapers for printing utter bullshit for some reason Your futile misguided protest will have no effect and you are silly for thinking it will. As an alternative, try doing nothing and voting with your feet by reading the Guardian.
|
# ? Jan 2, 2020 21:19 |
|
Jose posted:He writes that sort of poo poo all the time and the nyt just today was whitewashing that navy seal who did a load of war crimes so bad that his squad were the ones to report him Pretty sure this is the same guy whose squad had to keep loving with his sights because he kept successfully shooting so many civilians.
|
# ? Jan 2, 2020 21:32 |
|
Guavanaut posted:Does being a Maoist require praising Mao personally? (Unrelated: Does it even follow as a train of thought in postindustrial societies?) These are fair points and no, in theory authcoms like Maoists and Titoists don't have to praise the dictators they align themselves with, however: Guavanaut posted:You can be a Stalinist without praising Stalin himself, in practice this part is just not true, as evidenced by 99.9% of Stalinists being Stalin apologists. I can't speak for Maoists and Titoists, and I concede that you may be right on that, but I cannot trust Stalinists not to be awful people.
|
# ? Jan 2, 2020 21:34 |
|
Venomous posted:These are fair points and no, in theory authcoms like Maoists and Titoists don't have to praise the dictators they align themselves with, however: What even is Stalinism without the cult of Stalin? He had his political theory stuff ghostwritten, he was never much of an intellectual.
|
# ? Jan 2, 2020 22:04 |
|
Venomous posted:These are fair points and no, in theory authcoms like Maoists and Titoists don't have to praise the dictators they align themselves with, however: Or Christians who don't listen to a drat thing Christ said. feedmegin posted:What even is Stalinism without the cult of Stalin? He had his political theory stuff ghostwritten, he was never much of an intellectual. Braggart posted:Wouldn't that be the hips?
|
# ? Jan 2, 2020 22:09 |
|
feedmegin posted:What even is Stalinism without the cult of Stalin? He had his political theory stuff ghostwritten, he was never much of an intellectual.
|
# ? Jan 2, 2020 22:11 |
|
Something something spectre of communism.
|
# ? Jan 2, 2020 22:18 |
|
Jose posted:He writes that sort of poo poo all the time and the nyt just today was whitewashing that navy seal who did a load of war crimes so bad that his squad were the ones to report him they're also up to this https://twitter.com/nyt_diff/status/1212528830218407936
|
# ? Jan 2, 2020 23:08 |
There's an actual reasonably decent article here from Mark Steel: https://twitter.com/mrmarksteel/status/1212855619251822592?s=20 Of course it's heaped with irony but it does make some good points.
|
|
# ? Jan 2, 2020 23:56 |
|
WhatEvil posted:Mark Steel https://marksteelinfo.com/recordings/ Hes giving away some of his old programs here. I would STRONGLY RECOMMEND as in LISTEN NOW to his Mark Steel Lectures. It has old political jokes sure but the content is loving amazing.
|
# ? Jan 3, 2020 00:19 |
Oh cool yeah thanks I'll check them out. Also thread might like this: https://twitter.com/MirrorPolitics/status/1212864465252888581?s=20
|
|
# ? Jan 3, 2020 00:22 |
|
I like this very good & cool graphic from a BBC article (no the article is not about the merits thereof, but rather rental bike thefts in general). Now, yes, it was made by a Chinese company, but FFS why did they think that was a good graphic to accompany the article.
|
# ? Jan 3, 2020 00:36 |
|
WhatEvil posted:Oh cool yeah thanks I'll check them out. Feels like the melts are really getting behind Keir.
|
# ? Jan 3, 2020 00:44 |
|
I like that the Mirror just threw a poo poo-stirring quote in there from the Mail, for a laugh.
|
# ? Jan 3, 2020 00:47 |
|
feedmegin posted:What even is Stalinism without the cult of Stalin? He had his political theory stuff ghostwritten, he was never much of an intellectual. stalin was absolutely an intellectual
|
# ? Jan 3, 2020 00:53 |
|
The Heil posted:EU must get real: In just weeks the EU will lose 10% of its income, 12% of its population, and 13% of its total GDP – because Britain is leaving... so it's time for them to be realistic about a trade deal, writes DOMINIC SANDBROOK Yes that's the first sentence. No it's not referring to the headline. quote:Brexit, European Commission vice-president Frans Timmermans declared a few days ago, was ‘unnecessary’, and Britain would ‘always be welcome to come back’. Lizard must wise up, it's about to lose 12 per cent of its bodyweight when its tail drops off, says tail. quote:For the past few years its negotiators told themselves British resolve would weaken eventually. We've got our stabbed in the back myth, I think. quote:Britain is not going away. Indeed, most economic forecasts predict that, by the second half of the century, it will overtake Germany as the Continent’s most dynamic economy. That's not what I've been hearing... quote:So it would make no sense for the EU to alienate an important trading partner by fighting over tiny details. Do countries like France, Germany, Holland and Ireland really want to leave their closest ally seething with resentment? So unlike the previous decades of the UK seething with resentment inside the EU? quote:The most sensible thing, therefore, would be for the EU to give us a generous deal as quickly as possible. And if its negotiators need inspiration from history, they should look to Britain’s own record of far-sighted compromise. Yeah we were best buds right after that war for independence they had with us. That's how it always goes. 1812? What happened in 1812? Also, giving stuff away to America is good! Just preparing the ground for something... quote:Other post-imperial nations, such as Canada, Australia and New Zealand, were born in a similar spirit, which explains why our ties remain so close. Just the white places. quote:And there is an even more striking example in South Africa, where Britain and the Dutch-speaking Boers fought a vicious war from 1899 to 1902. Whoa, okay, and the REALLY white place. This is all the article says about South Africa. You'd think there would be some other important things to mention. quote:I realise, of course, such generosity of spirit may stick in the craw of some Europeans.
|
# ? Jan 3, 2020 01:05 |
|
Braggart posted:Whoa, okay, and the REALLY white place. This is all the article says about South Africa. You'd think there would be some other important things to mention. Can't see why you'd want to stare too hard at that.
|
# ? Jan 3, 2020 01:22 |
|
I'm looking for a word or phrase that can encapsulate how I view today's politics. I see it as a constant barrage of awful things, but instead of it coming in dramatic change it's mostly become banal and too unnoticeable a at first for people to care. I need a word for both banal and awful.
|
# ? Jan 3, 2020 01:25 |
|
analbaws
|
# ? Jan 3, 2020 01:26 |
|
Chuka Umana posted:I'm looking for a word or phrase that can encapsulate how I view today's politics. I see it as a constant barrage of awful things, but instead of it coming in dramatic change it's mostly become banal and too unnoticeable a at first for people to care. I need a word for both banal and awful. Goltzfrosch. I made it up. German is good at these mixed things. So then I thought of the boiling frog. And instead of just doing 'boiling frog' in German (kochender Frosch) I found out that German physiologist Friedrich Goltz demonstrated that a frog that has had its brain removed will remain in slowly heated water, but an intact frog attempted to escape the water when it reached 25 °C. I think that says something. I used to follow Sibel Edmond's blog which used to be called "Boiling Frogs". I know she changed the name a couple of years ago but I have lost track now. Ed: interesting stuff about boiling frogs experiments - definitely a metaphor! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Jan 3, 2020 |
# ? Jan 3, 2020 01:34 |
|
Chuka Umana posted:I'm looking for a word or phrase that can encapsulate how I view today's politics. I see it as a constant barrage of awful things, but instead of it coming in dramatic change it's mostly become banal and too unnoticeable a at first for people to care. I need a word for both banal and awful. You got them late-capitalism blues.
|
# ? Jan 3, 2020 01:43 |
|
Welp, Trump just had Qassem Soleimani blown up in Baghdad, so in addition to all the other delights of a Johnson government Our Boys are probably heading back to the Middle East for Iraq War Round Three before spring.
Apraxin fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Jan 3, 2020 |
# ? Jan 3, 2020 02:40 |
|
feedmegin posted:What even is Stalinism without the cult of Stalin? He had his political theory stuff ghostwritten, he was never much of an intellectual. Is that true. I thought his writings were his own, maybe helped in editing by others. But I thought the idea that all his writing was done by others was western propaganda?
|
# ? Jan 3, 2020 02:51 |
|
Well it's been real nice posting with you folks for all these years, see you on the other side of WW3... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-50979463
|
# ? Jan 3, 2020 04:44 |
|
Sure seems like it would've been a good time to have a pro-peace Prime Minister but never mind. I'm sure Boris won't do something staggeringly stupid like leap into helping America in Iran.
|
# ? Jan 3, 2020 04:49 |
|
|
# ? May 25, 2024 13:17 |
|
People will be imagining a repeat of the Iraq war as well. As bad as that would be, war with Iran will be awful on a whole other level. We should have no part in it but I imagine Johnson is stupid enough to believe the US right's propaganda.
|
# ? Jan 3, 2020 05:15 |