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Open world games tend to suffer in the story if its a total character creation. Blank slates are hard to write a game story for, so you either have to try the best you can or accept the story doesn't matter and give a playground to dick around in. The closest i think it gets to best of both worlds is New Vegas but even then it does have to set some conditions down (i.e. you are a courier and if you played the DLC you blew up Ulysses home town). Though of course fallout 4 exists as the worst of both worlds (pretty strictly defined MC and suffers for it). Some of the best writing in games for me came from Planescape, The witcher and disco elysium which give you a character but its pretty superficial. While their past might be set, you're still given control over how they act during these events. My Geralt may make different choices than yours but they all feel better connected to the narrative because the writing was written with him in mind, as opposed to something like skyrim which has to account for whatever the player concocted, meaning the dialouge tends to be generic and practically written rather than trying to reach for something better. If this is a hurdle thats fine. RPGs are a huge time sink and we live in a time of so many great games sometimes you have to pass on stuff even for silly reasons. I just think there are advantages to the format of a predefined character.
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Jan 2, 2020 22:20
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I really like it when it's done well. Geralt is an established character that I already really like from the novels, and the game is really well designed to give you choices without ever betraying the character's personality. I ultimately bounced off the game but the writing was superb. Part of why Fallout 4 was so disappointing for me is the character customization may as well have been window dressing. I can make my character look any way I want but at the end of the day they're middle class, sexually attracted to the opposite sex, a biological parent, have an established history and former occupation, and sound like a famous voice actor. All the perk gating and underwhelming mechanical customization means that end game characters tend to all play alike too. It's funny that ultimately I felt like I had more choice to write a unique story with Geralt than I did with Fallout Man.
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Jan 2, 2020 22:40
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Len posted:We I play an open world game I just slam the default character option because very rarely does it matter for anything ever. You could spend 2 hours lovingly moving face sliders but your person is going to be wearing a helmet, seldom gas voice lines, and you'll be shoehorned into dialogue choices that are mostly "pet puppy" "ignore puppy" "kick puppy" On the other hand, if a game lets me carefully curate my character to look as dumb as possible I will do that, and then never wear armor just so I can revel in it. Especially if it's an online game where I can then look extra dumb in cutscenes that everyone gets to see;  RagnarokAngel posted:Some of the best writing in games for me came from Planescape, The witcher and disco elysium which give you a character but its pretty superficial. While their past might be set, you're still given control over how they act during these events. My Geralt may make different choices than yours but they all feel better connected to the narrative because the writing was written with him in mind, as opposed to something like skyrim which has to account for whatever the player concocted, meaning the dialouge tends to be generic and practically written rather than trying to reach for something better. See, this is the exact reason why I don't like these games, honestly. Your Geralt might make different choices than mine, but he's still Geralt. There's nothing you can really do to make Geralt a different character, you're not even really playing as Geralt and developing him as a person or anything. Because at the end of the day, Geralt is always going to be Geralt and the only character development he goes through happens over the course of the story beats you don't get much input over. Even your choices from the previous game didn't have an input on Geralt, as a character. You have more influence on the world around Geralt, then you do Geralt. Which is pretty much the opposite of what I look for in an RPG.
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Jan 2, 2020 23:43
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RagnarokAngel posted:
Planescape did it in a really cool way where the character has an established backstory but that backstory involves him going through periods where he acts differently each time - so by making choices you aren’t deciding who he is but who he is this time. It’s a great compromise between playing as an established character and being able to make important moral decisions. Meanwhile Fallout 4 felt terrible not just because you like you were playing an established character you didn’t have control over in a game ostensibly about making big decisions and doing things your way, but because that character was boring. If I have to be a specific person in an rpg, I want them to be a character I care about that feels like part of the world rather than some bumbling generic outsider who happens to be a shootgod. The majority of dialogue options in Fallout 4 are devoid of any personality (which I assume is because you can’t see what your character is going to say ahead of time so nothing can deviate from the two words or so you get to see), with the only real character trait I can think of being “aggressively unfunny” if you pick “sarcastic” a lot. It was like they were trying do a weird compromise where the game has a set character you play but we weren’t supposed to notice.
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Jan 3, 2020 00:34
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Nuebot posted:See, this is the exact reason why I don't like these games, honestly. Your Geralt might make different choices than mine, but he's still Geralt. There's nothing you can really do to make Geralt a different character, you're not even really playing as Geralt and developing him as a person or anything. Because at the end of the day, Geralt is always going to be Geralt and the only character development he goes through happens over the course of the story beats you don't get much input over. Even your choices from the previous game didn't have an input on Geralt, as a character. You have more influence on the world around Geralt, then you do Geralt. Which is pretty much the opposite of what I look for in an RPG. I disagree, because character development in Western style RPGs is honestly pretty bad, as a limitation of their design. If I say, play the courier in New Vegas, they actually don't go through a ton of growth. They can decide what decisions they make (who they kill or spare, which faction they ally with, etc.) but there's no real character growth that you don't backfill in yourself. It's admittedly why I can't get into my character's head in these types of RPGs. I can write my own backstory in New Vegas to say I'm a dyed in the wool NCR patriot, or that they support the NCR because they are fleeing the tyranny of Caesar's legion. None of this actually matters though, it's fan fiction I fill in my head to justify my decisions but it's still only an idea in your head, and not something the game can actually reflect (as opposed to a tabletop RPG where a DM can weave the narrative in an arc around your character's issues and how they deal with them). I find this decision is actually compounded even worse on a first play through. Simply put you don't know the narrative, so it's hard to predict an arc that "makes sense" for your character. Instead I'm making decisions in the moment I personally as a human being think is prudent or "correct" and not something my character does. On a replay when I know what the game is doing, it's easier to write a fictional backstory but it goes back to my previous issue of the game not really meaningfully interacting with the PC, they're a passive observer who occasionally gets to make a decision here or there. But they are ultimately assumed to be a blank slate, because it's all that a computer with a pre-written script can reasonably do with the resources given to it. Now Witcher...I get your point, no matter what you do, it's Geralt. But I disagree you don't get any more input, you're actually making all the same decisions another RPG might give you with a custom made PC, but these decisions have more fleshed out repercussions in the story because the game can account for the main character's personality. In the first 2 games you can either side with the Scoiatel (Elf and Dwarf resistance fighters) or the humans, or in the first game maintain a neutral stance and not do either. These decisions all make sense for Geralt but the game reacts better to them because Geralt has a history that justifies why he would pick any of these. He might side with the scoatiel because he understands what it's like to be an outcast, he might side with the humans because he thinks the scoatiel are dangerous, or he'll stay neutral because that's what witchers are supposed to be doing. This is pretty similar to writing your own backstory in Fallout: New Vegas but the game can actually respond to them in a way that's meaningful in the narrative. He has friends who are affected by the decision, and not just faceless NPCs or party members that were thrust upon us that the developers have to hope we like. I think you're ultimately downplaying how important the decisions in the Witcher game are because in general they actually have more impact in how Geralt changes than you seem to think, arguably more than say, The Courier or Commander Shepard. RagnarokAngel has a new favorite as of 01:55 on Jan 3, 2020 |
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Jan 3, 2020 01:50
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PremiumSupport posted:When I choose to play a RPG style (or even survival style) game, I want full control over who my character is and what my character's reactions are. So you don't like video games then?
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Jan 3, 2020 03:12
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Tiggum posted:So you don't like video games then? it's a sliding scale
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Jan 3, 2020 03:16
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im pooping! posted:
That interaction was fun and interesting so I'm convinced it was cut content from New Vegas
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Jan 3, 2020 03:18
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Seedge posted:DOOM 3 is certainly a game from 16 years ago, and that's mostly fine except The problem with the Doom 3 shotgun is that it's got nearly a 180 degree spread. You gotta jam it in the imp's face, but once you do, they die in one shot. Or should.. my memories are vague.
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Jan 3, 2020 03:21
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Away all Goats posted:That interaction was fun and interesting so I'm convinced it was cut content from New Vegas When exactly did NV go from "horrible trash can fire of a game" that was universally panned to "best new fallout game"?
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Jan 3, 2020 03:23
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Len posted:When exactly did NV go from "horrible trash can fire of a game" that was universally panned to "best new fallout game"? NV was pretty beloved since release, at least on this forum.
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Jan 3, 2020 03:26
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Yeah it had the usual bucket o' bugs on release and lots of teenagers hated it, but it was beloved on SA immediately, for the devs posting in Games and the Johnny FiveAces easter egg if nothing else.
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Jan 3, 2020 03:29
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Len posted:When exactly did NV go from "horrible trash can fire of a game" that was universally panned to "best new fallout game"?  
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Jan 3, 2020 03:30
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Len posted:When exactly did NV go from "horrible trash can fire of a game" that was universally panned to "best new fallout game"? I thought it was initially received as a rough diamond in a medium trash fire of bugs and Gamebyro quirks. The patching and mods reduced the trash fire to a manageable smolder. The parts that were brilliant were always brilliant, mainly Mr. Fantastic.
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Jan 3, 2020 03:37
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Len posted:When exactly did NV go from "horrible trash can fire of a game" that was universally panned to "best new fallout game"? It was never universally panned.
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Jan 3, 2020 04:00
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Len posted:When exactly did NV go from "horrible trash can fire of a game" that was universally panned to "best new fallout game"? It was always universally beloved, where the hell did you even get that from
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Jan 3, 2020 04:49
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RagnarokAngel posted:Now Witcher...I get your point, no matter what you do, it's Geralt. But I disagree you don't get any more input, you're actually making all the same decisions another RPG might give you with a custom made PC, but these decisions have more fleshed out repercussions in the story because the game can account for the main character's personality. In the first 2 games you can either side with the Scoiatel (Elf and Dwarf resistance fighters) or the humans, or in the first game maintain a neutral stance and not do either. These decisions all make sense for Geralt but the game reacts better to them because Geralt has a history that justifies why he would pick any of these. He might side with the scoatiel because he understands what it's like to be an outcast, he might side with the humans because he thinks the scoatiel are dangerous, or he'll stay neutral because that's what witchers are supposed to be doing. This is pretty similar to writing your own backstory in Fallout: New Vegas but the game can actually respond to them in a way that's meaningful in the narrative. He has friends who are affected by the decision, and not just faceless NPCs or party members that were thrust upon us that the developers have to hope we like. But that's exactly what I meant, it doesn't matter why you, the player, agree with or disagree with the Scoiatel, because Geralt has his own reasons for it. It's Geralt's choice, and you're effectively just picking what page in the adventure book to flip to, see the outcome of that choice, and his reasoning in particular. Contrast that to something like an elder scrolls game with the typical blank slate style character where the choice might be more vague - but I am free to fluff it up however I want. Why is my character refusing to help these elves? Maybe it's just because they're racist and they hate elves. Maybe I've been picking every negative option in regards to elves this whole play through, even if it's detrimental to me. The game won't keep track of it, and dialogue won't reflect it, but that doesn't matter much because the game doesn't also define the protagonist. Wheras in the witcher, you can't really do that. Every time you screw over an elf, Geralt always has his own reasons for it, and they're not always your reasons. You can't play as your very own Geralt. You're always just that same geralt.
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Jan 3, 2020 04:53
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Nuebot posted:You're always just that same geralt. But that kinda seems inherent in making a game with a pre-existing character.
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Jan 3, 2020 05:01
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Samuringa posted:It was always universally beloved, where the hell did you even get that from Everyone I knew in person at the time that did nothing but talk about how it was a buggy trashcan fire. It wasn't until the last couple years I heard people talk it up in a positive light
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Jan 3, 2020 05:11
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Nuebot posted:You're always just that same geralt. 
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Jan 3, 2020 05:59
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Some games with characters are good. Some games with character creations are good. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle?
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Jan 3, 2020 06:07
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Samuringa posted:It was always universally beloved, where the hell did you even get that from At worst it got overlooked (unfairly) as not being enough of an advancement over Fallout 3 to a cursory glance by the mainstream but yeah it was never really hated Nuebot posted:But that's exactly what I meant, it doesn't matter why you, the player, agree with or disagree with the Scoiatel, because Geralt has his own reasons for it. It's Geralt's choice, and you're effectively just picking what page in the adventure book to flip to, see the outcome of that choice, and his reasoning in particular. Contrast that to something like an elder scrolls game with the typical blank slate style character where the choice might be more vague - but I am free to fluff it up however I want. Why is my character refusing to help these elves? Maybe it's just because they're racist and they hate elves. Maybe I've been picking every negative option in regards to elves this whole play through, even if it's detrimental to me. The game won't keep track of it, and dialogue won't reflect it, but that doesn't matter much because the game doesn't also define the protagonist. Wheras in the witcher, you can't really do that. Every time you screw over an elf, Geralt always has his own reasons for it, and they're not always your reasons. You can't play as your very own Geralt. You're always just that same geralt. My issue is none of that matters. It creates a divide between the player and the game world because the onus becomes on the player to justify their decisions and while it may be important to your head canon the game doesn't care. And depending on the game you may not be able to make that choice meaningful, the game isn't tracking elves killed or anything. If you want to have your own character you really either need to write a book or play a DnD game where the DM can reflect these events back to you in the narrative, otherwise there will always be that disconnect. Even if you approach Witcher as a Geralt who isn generally pro demihuman and you sides with the scoaitel, youre given more agency than you give the game credit for. You dont always have to side with them, you can change it as the narrative goes on. Those are still your choices to make. By making those choices you the player are still making them even if the character is pre written. Blank slate characters dont grant you any more agency, youre still locked into options the developers wrote for you ahead of time. At least with a pre made character those choices can be better reflected in the narrative. oldpainless posted:Some games with characters are good. Some games with character creations are good. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle? RagnarokAngel has a new favorite as of 06:18 on Jan 3, 2020 |
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Jan 3, 2020 06:10
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I never really had an issue with that disconnect though, I don't mind if the game its self doesn't make reference to the things I impose on my blank slate character. That's fine by me, I prefer that over the game telling me what my character thinks and feels, because at that point I feel like I am, at best, piloting someone else around much like I do mario through a platforming stage. It's why I couldn't get into fallout 4, either. Sure, you could ignore the entire main plot if you tried but the main character still had a predetermined personality and their responses to everything was pretty canned to fit into that personality even when they were acting snarky or mean, in the opportunities where you could act in that manner. I'd rather the game be open, but less responsive, than responsive but only in one way.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:42
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Gears of War 2 is weird as it seems to want to be screaming twist when there apparently isn't one, it's supposedly a really earnest kind of stupid. Like the flyers and collectibles are all "Why are the Gears making such stupid tactical decisions like sending a civilian driver solo to deliver ammo rather than giving him an escort?" and "Hey, Imultion prices are ludicrously overinflated, and the only reason they are getting away with it is this endless garbage forever-war." Like the collectibles are implying that triggering the Big War was intentional to keep prices high and distract from some true purpose, or even as simple as "The locusts have imultion, we want it, we can beat them right? Oooops..." as an Iraq thing, but it's just that the characters in the world really are that incompetent. They basically gave the locusts that Landdown settlement.
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Jan 3, 2020 10:25
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Len posted:Everyone I knew in person at the time that did nothing but talk about how it was a buggy trashcan fire. It wasn't until the last couple years I heard people talk it up in a positive light It was buggy at launch, and it still is buggy with some areas left on the map clearly unfinished or even broken to some degree, the game and saves leak memory everywhere and the overall game is really loving unstable for a triple-A console-release. But the story, setting and content was never hated or called "trash" by anyone, you are just projecting people complaining about technical issues.
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Jan 3, 2020 10:29
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Pathologic 2 is exactly the game I've always wanted to play but now I'm an old man and it's exhausting to do all this investigating and getting invested in a game, plus after years of Fallout 3+4/basically every game lately, my "give a poo poo about game" neurons have all atrophied 
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Jan 3, 2020 10:38
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Nuebot posted:But that's exactly what I meant, it doesn't matter why you, the player, agree with or disagree with the Scoiatel, because Geralt has his own reasons for it. It's Geralt's choice, and you're effectively just picking what page in the adventure book to flip to, see the outcome of that choice, and his reasoning in particular. Contrast that to something like an elder scrolls game with the typical blank slate style character where the choice might be more vague - but I am free to fluff it up however I want. Why is my character refusing to help these elves? Maybe it's just because they're racist and they hate elves. Maybe I've been picking every negative option in regards to elves this whole play through, even if it's detrimental to me. The game won't keep track of it, and dialogue won't reflect it, but that doesn't matter much because the game doesn't also define the protagonist. Wheras in the witcher, you can't really do that. Every time you screw over an elf, Geralt always has his own reasons for it, and they're not always your reasons. You can't play as your very own Geralt. You're always just that same geralt. Pacman is the best RPG because nothing in the game explicitly contradicts my 800 page fanfiction explaining exactly who all the ghosts are, how they died, and why they are haunting these mazes and chasing Pacman, who I have also written an extensive backstory for.
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Jan 3, 2020 10:55
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Der Kyhe posted:It was buggy at launch, and it still is buggy with some areas left on the map clearly unfinished or even broken to some degree, the game and saves leak memory everywhere and the overall game is really loving unstable for a triple-A console-release.
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Jan 3, 2020 11:18
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oldpainless posted:Some games with characters are good. Some games with character creations are good. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle? More like oldcentralist
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Jan 3, 2020 11:33
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Len posted:When exactly did NV go from "horrible trash can fire of a game" that was universally panned to "best new fallout game"? It was never panned, but NV certainly became the later once most Fallout fans skipped over it in favor of the fourth game. Content: I'm generally digging Surviving Mars, but at the same time I'm a little weary over it especially when it comes to maintenance. Everything has a resource cost to maintain it, and if it's something even mildly esoteric (especially if you're in the early phase where those esoteric things are hard to get), good luck if you don't already have a pile of it. MisterBibs has a new favorite as of 11:53 on Jan 3, 2020 |
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Jan 3, 2020 11:46
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My issue with how Fallout 4 handles it is down to consistency. You can pretend to not know who Shaun is or otherwise ignore that bullshit but if you stumble into one of the main quests where it's pertinent suddenly your character goes all-in on  I just want to find my dear old boy out of nowhere and it sucks. I actually think Fallout 4's writing (and Bethesda's as a whole) isn't anywhere near as bad as people make it out to be around here, but consistency has never, ever been their strong suit.Also on a related note I've started replaying Mass Effect with the benefit of cheating so the godawful Paragon/Renegade stat system and skill check bullshit isn't a factor. But as a consequence of that a lot of the minor quest resolutions feel cheap and too easy, because in a lot of cases the ole blue and red options feel more like Jedi mind tricks that instantly resolve everything effortlessly. I hate that a large part of the satisfaction in building up your Shep's diplomacy/intimidation* prowess is inseparable from all of the janky bullshit that leads to me not being able to pick the dialogue options I want. Oops, you said a mean thing to Ashley one time, guess you can't talk down Saren anymore! *Of course, the real design snarl is that Paragon and especially Renegade have literally never meant anything consistent or coherent across any of the games, let alone just in ME1. That and the obsession with making it a capital-S System instead of a more passive thing. John Murdoch has a new favorite as of 17:23 on Jan 3, 2020 |
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Jan 3, 2020 17:17
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Quit cheating
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Jan 3, 2020 17:21
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I also cheated to unlock all the achievements so I could have all the little extra bonuses they grant. 
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Jan 3, 2020 17:23
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Reported
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Jan 3, 2020 17:25
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John Murdoch posted:My issue with how Fallout 4 handles it is down to consistency. You can pretend to not know who Shaun is or otherwise ignore that bullshit but if you stumble into one of the main quests where it's pertinent suddenly your character goes all-in on It also would help if the game had decided early if it wants to be a settlement building game or not. It is true that you can skip almost all of that poo poo if you want to, but you still have to do some settlement building at some parts of the story. I'd also venture a guess that the content and drive to explore by your own is even more slim to none if you decide to not do building or customizing yourself and don't need the ton of ceramics and adhesives. Also, why are all more interesting/useful/practical features locked behind semi-high charisma skills and such? To ensure that you get them only at midgame? You need charisma-locked skills to make any of the services or anything, really. As a final "we did not think this through" in the "make your own Vault" DLC you easily run out of item allowance long before you run out of room to make, or decorate, or furnish your own personal Vault.
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Jan 3, 2020 17:50
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A bunch of stuff is Intelligence locked too. Science! controlling your ability to craft energy weapons is sensible, but it also controls the grand majority of high-tier weapon mods, particularly for melee. And also anything other than the raw metal of power armor. And then also a few random settlement items. There's other dumb stuff like that. Like you can't install a doctor's stall for your settlement market unless you yourself have points in the Medic perk (another Intelligence perk, natch). As someone trying to play an Int 0 melee berserker it was really loving annoying. Edit: Looking it up, I forgot just how bad it is. INT gets a completely ridiculous spread of near must-have perks that anyone not doing a gimmick run like mine would be an idiot to ignore. John Murdoch has a new favorite as of 18:36 on Jan 3, 2020 |
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Jan 3, 2020 18:23
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 Fallen Order's map design really starts bringing the game down a couple planets in (the above example isn't particularly spoilery, but hidden just because it's from midway into the game). The actual interface is great, it's a big, multilevel 3D hologram you can rotate and zoom as you please, with your objective and locked/unlocked doors and openings marked. But imagine having all that information without any fast travel points or, maybe even more importantly, any type of waypoint or pathfinding mechanic. Especially when your goal is a ways off or past an unexplored area, it sometimes becomes a game of constantly reopening the map every two minutes, trying to make sure you've gotten on the correct windy path and that you're going in the right direction. I like the game a lot, but even doing a replay with a better overall idea of what I'm doing, there are still sections on some of the planets where I just sigh and feel like giving up.
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Jan 3, 2020 18:44
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Doesn't surprise me that Intelligence is one of the more useful stats. It's always been one of the more useful stats in Fallout. Now Charisma I didn't expect to be useful in Fallout 4 but yeah alot of the perks needed for settlement building needs it.
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Jan 3, 2020 18:45
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...And continuing on the settlement stuff: So OK the game has obviously limitations because of consoles, but there are several abandoned towns which would have been perfect places for making your own thunderdo--- prosperity villages. However, -You can never retake or rebuilt Quincy (even though it is apparent that this was possible almost to the finish line) -You can retake Jamaica plains ...half-toppled apartment building and a parking lot on the outskirts of the place, but the town center with shops and community buildings such as almost intact church is outside your building area and constantly spawns ghouls. Because why not. -Concord does not have anything available (besides that gas station outside town). So your "settlement building" is just making and enhancing dirt farms and hovels mostly the middle of nowhere at the map edges, or as an insult right next to some places which already would have infrastructure and stuff which could be repurposed. This obviously because of some technical limitations, but you can overtake Covenant and Bunker Hill, which both convert from active cells to settlements, so it *would be* technically possible. They just didn't bother making it anywhere else probably due to scripting problems and if we need to save resources such as item placement memory, maybe drop off some of the dirt farms at the sticks, and give me an actual town to rebuild somewhere around the middle of the map? Der Kyhe has a new favorite as of 19:07 on Jan 3, 2020 |
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Jan 3, 2020 18:48
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I mean, given how they chose to expand the system in the DLC and then, of course, FO76, it seems obvious they wanted to chase after the survival/crafting craze and entice people with blank slate settlements and gave zero shits about how that system might logically blend together with any other part of the game. Reviving Quincy would be satisfying, but since it's largely already built out there wouldn't be nearly as much you could actually DO with it, compared to all the random open plots that you can turn into some dumb clusterfuck tower defense trapland/scrap metal pimp palace. John Murdoch has a new favorite as of 19:16 on Jan 3, 2020 |
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Jan 3, 2020 19:14
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