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Thaddius the Large posted:Got some bad news about that actually https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMTz9nIUkGc&t=23s it was a bad joke 
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Jan 3, 2020 06:03
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Veryslightlymad posted:So anyone remember Millenium Challenge 2002? Was red's strategy ever discredited (by someone who wasn't already discredited by red's strategy?) Because this seems like a good time to point out that Iran has the capability to wipe out our Persian Gulf fleet in less than a day. Oh yeah that was a bunch of bullshit. Millenium Challenge 2007 was basically won by spawn camping. The exercise was set up stupidly and the red force commander exploited it to the hilt.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:03
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Youth Decay posted:You know Bernie is going to come out with an equally equivocating statement, right? Do you ever get tired of being wrong?
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Jan 3, 2020 06:03
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Luckyellow posted:It's literally named "The Democratic People's Republic of Korea" Just a dictatorship where the supreme leader is considered a god, that's all
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Jan 3, 2020 06:03
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Mat Cauthon posted:The person quoted there isn't a right wing hack or a bot and their point is valid - Warren's response, like many of the centrist Democrat responses, is poo poo because it justifies the action but only criticizes the way in which it was done. It's politically useless. Do you remember the run-up to the Iraq invasion? A huge chunk of right-wing rhetoric was "oh, so you oppose the war? You must love noted torturer and war criminal Saddam Hussein then. Why do you love Saddam so much, why do you think it was a good thing he gassed the Kurds, etc etc etc" The messaging isn't perfect and the rhetoric should be much stronger, but Warren's campaign is not trying to justify the assassination. It's trying to head off "this is okay because he was a really, really bad guy" arguments by saying from the get-go that, no matter how bad he was, this is still a loving terrible idea.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:04
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theflyingorc posted:Invoking the tiger-scaring rock is beneath you intellectually I was being a bit facetious, but my point remains: there's really no reason to preface statements on this with "He was a monster BUT..." This post does a better job of describing why than I've been doing, admittedly: Flip Yr Wig posted:He's a major world leader. By definition he is a bad guy. But prefacing every statement about his assassination in those terms is a deliberate frame that obscures the immense shittyness of the choice to kill him.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:04
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Trabisnikof posted:And yes, Warren having to preface her statement with "ok we assassinated a bad guy but...." is politics. It's poo poo politics. Her take sounds like "Offing this dude is justified, but taking action is reckless. Vote for inaction!" There are plenty of ways to phrase it that don't sound like you're both justifying the killing and a wimp.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:04
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Veryslightlymad posted:So anyone remember Millenium Challenge 2002? Was red's strategy ever discredited (by someone who wasn't already discredited by red's strategy?) Because this seems like a good time to point out that Iran has the capability to wipe out our Persian Gulf fleet in less than a day. Wtf do you even mean by that bolded statement? Anyone who disagrees with the red strategy in that exercise, has already been pre-discredited by the fact that red won the wargame? As with any military exercise, both sides made major and sometimes questionable assumptions. The story of "a bunch of speedboats and Cessnas with anti-ship missiles, co-ordinates by motorcycle messengers zerg rushes world's largest navy" makes for good headlines, but whether or not a real world US navy fleet would actually be concentrated so closely to the Iranian coastline, whether or not low tech means of communication would have the necessary speed and reliability to coordinate such a massive singular attack, and whether or not speedboats and Cessnas can actually carry missiles large enough to destroy aircraft carriers, are not questions that journalists tend to ask.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:04
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Flip Yr Wig posted:From what I understand, he largely gamed some loopholes. Something like bike messengers traveling insanely fast or carrying infinite weight. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:on a couple of levels yes, on a couple of levels no. Van Ripper's actions were a mix of "cheating" (hey, what if I didn't use communications I knew to be tapped, or used anti-air weapons on VTOL aircraft) and straight-up cheating (loading down speedboats with a couple dozen missiles bigger than they were, because the simulation didn't enforce tonnage limits). OK, thank you. Knowing about weight limit cheating puts some of the panic out of my system.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:04
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SocketWrench posted:Just a dictatorship where the supreme leader is considered a god, that's all I'd call anyone that doesn't need to poo poo and can shoot a perfect round of golf a god. 
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Jan 3, 2020 06:04
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:It's poo poo politics. Her take sounds like "Offing this dude is justified, but taking action is reckless. Vote for inaction!" There are plenty of ways to phrase it that don't sound like you're both justifying the killing and a wimp. Bernie didn't even mention the guy. He called it an escalation, because there was probably better ways of neutralizing his plans than killing him.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:05
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OctaMurk posted:Wtf do you even mean by that bolded statement? Anyone who disagrees with the red strategy in that exercise, has already been pre-discredited by the fact that red won the wargame? No, I meant people that were neither butt-hurt opponents or specifically stood to profit from the technologies being demonstrated by the game.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:06
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Yeah, because I bet you were just chomping at the bit to back Obama when he was droning people
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Jan 3, 2020 06:06
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SocketWrench posted:Just a dictatorship where the supreme leader is considered a god, that's all Some trends just take a while to make it over to America. 
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Jan 3, 2020 06:06
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terrorist ambulance posted:Who are you talking to. Right wing? Bot? What? Any politician who just says 'this was WRONG' will get 100% owned if it is proven that in fact he was planning an immediate bombing.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:06
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Abner Assington posted:My dream in life is to move out of this stupid country and never come back. Shame being a graphic designer is probably the least desired career path for an immigrant. At least your job exists in other countries. But if we go to Stupid War and alienate the rest of the world and debt extradition stops being a thing maybe it doesn't matter that I'll have to start over completely.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:07
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cochise posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMTz9nIUkGc&t=23s Yeah I got that, just figured it appreciably ironic that we can’t even offer that level of fascism.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:07
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Discussing the degree of equivocation in tweets condemning the assassination is valid, but it's also really not the most productive or important topic atm. I'd like it to not be what dominates the thread.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:08
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Trabisnikof posted:Yeah I agree, probably the Warren tweet should have been saved for the primary thread. Since it adds no new information or nuance to the topic and is just primary chat bait. Trump just won reelection. Trump just lost reelection. Warren just lost the election. These are easy and provocative statements but they dont mean anything and the people making them dont know what will happen anymore than anyone else. It's just a waste and doesn't contribute anything.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:09
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theflyingorc posted:Invoking the tiger-scaring rock is beneath you intellectually do you remember the version of you fifteen years ago who was screaming for more Iraqi blood. because it was the only sensible way to show America was still strong. do you remember all the wheedling little ways you told yourself that it was okay, it was good, it was righteous, the libs just hated america, any day now it would prove to have all been worth it. do you remember the day those walls fell, and the realization of what you had been cheering for crashed down on you. what say we hurry up the process a little bit this time around, hm?
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Jan 3, 2020 06:09
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Veryslightlymad posted:OK, thank you. Knowing about weight limit cheating puts some of the panic out of my system. Again, to be clear, direct war with Iran would still be incredibly destructive and unwinnable. It just wouldn't resemble someone breaking a Paradox game.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:11
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UnknownTarget posted:I like this post. Yeah, our military got stretched thin during the Bush wars in the 2000's. And that was nothing compared to an all out war with Iran.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:12
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KV_nIgg008
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Jan 3, 2020 06:15
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Flip Yr Wig posted:Again, to be clear, direct war with Iran would still be incredibly destructive and unwinnable. It just wouldn't resemble someone breaking a Paradox game. Agreed. I mean "It's nice to know we probably wouldn't lose an entire fleet in less than a day". I'm taking the consolations I can.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:16
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:do you remember the version of you fifteen years ago who was screaming for more Iraqi blood. because it was the only sensible way to show America was still strong. I'm not going to take lessons on good messaging from someone who is as radically tone deaf for how insane they sound as you, thanks
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Jan 3, 2020 06:17
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Mr Interweb posted:*nervously tugs collar, pulls down tie*: boy did i pick the wrong week to apply for u.s. citizenship!  They'll run it like the Union did in the 1860's "Welcome to America, just sign here. You are now a citizen, here's your uniform, off to the front"
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Jan 3, 2020 06:17
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Veryslightlymad posted:OK, thank you. Knowing about weight limit cheating puts some of the panic out of my system. make no mistake: if this turns into a full-on invasion of Iran, it will be the first time American troops have died enough to impact operational efficiency since Vietnam. the Strait can be mined, Scuds are not hard to aim, you can only AEGIS so many cruise missiles down before you need to reload, and while "we will be greeted as liberators" proved to be a hideously bloody joke in Iraq, by comparison to the reception we'll get in Iran the Iraqis might as well have said "please come into my house and gently caress my sister." but in a world where we both stand up at each other and punch until the other guy falls down, we win this one, just at more of a cost in American lives than we've seen since the 70s.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:18
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Any politician who just says 'this was WRONG' will get 100% owned if it is proven that in fact he was planning an immediate bombing. Why do you think anyone who isn't already onboard with an invasion will care? Even if we accept your premise that one can prove he was planning an immediate bombing, which one really can't.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:18
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cochise posted:I'd call anyone that doesn't need to poo poo and can shoot a perfect round of golf a god. All hail God Trump
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Jan 3, 2020 06:19
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https://twitter.com/elintnews/status/1212964103540690945?s=21
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Jan 3, 2020 06:20
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theflyingorc posted:I'm not going to take lessons on good messaging from someone who is as radically tone deaf for how insane they sound as you, thanks do you remember back when you were a die-hard Iraq War supporter, theflyingorc. do you remember how mercilessly you were played by the Bush administration, to support his war of choice, and all the deaths of innocents attendant to it. do you remember the shame when you realized this. you really don't have to meet Donald Trump halfway, you know. it's an option. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 3, 2020 06:20
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:make no mistake: if this turns into a full-on invasion of Iran, it will be the first time American troops have died enough to impact operational efficiency since Vietnam. the Strait can be mined, Scuds are not hard to aim, you can only AEGIS so many cruise missiles down before you need to reload, and while "we will be greeted as liberators" proved to be a hideously bloody joke in Iraq, by comparison to the reception we'll get in Iran the Iraqis might as well have said "please come into my house and gently caress my sister." If the war gets that hot, I don't believe the voting public has the appetite to see it through. Now, we can certainly speculate about how our general democratic backsliding and GOP spike in fascism will interplay with that, but I don't know how accurate any of us would be.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:22
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:do you remember back when you were a die-hard Iraq War supporter, theflyingorc. No, i don't remember that, what is wrong with you, i was tacitly Republican and didn't vote. What the gently caress are you even doing right now
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Jan 3, 2020 06:22
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With respect to the congresspeople getting uppity about the mostly irrelevant question of congressional authorization, someone offsite linked me this: https://www.lawfareblog.com/when-does-president-think-he-can-go-war-iran tl;dr: it's pretty easy to make a legal case for the President just up and going to war with Iran, but especially so if Iran pulls some poo poo. My reading is that by committing an act of war that is fairly easily justified under the AUMF (the gift that keeps on giving) the stage is now set up to be able to do whatever we want in response to Iranian retaliation.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:23
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:make no mistake: if this turns into a full-on invasion of Iran, it will be the first time American troops have died enough to impact operational efficiency since Vietnam. the Strait can be mined, Scuds are not hard to aim, you can only AEGIS so many cruise missiles down before you need to reload, and while "we will be greeted as liberators" proved to be a hideously bloody joke in Iraq, by comparison to the reception we'll get in Iran the Iraqis might as well have said "please come into my house and gently caress my sister." yeah. we as a country are not loving ready for that casualty rate. lions led by donkeys did a multiple part on the iran iraq war and yeah its gonna be loving horrible.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:23
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Dapper_Swindler posted:yeah. we as a country are not loving ready for that casualty rate. lions led by donkeys did a multiple part on the iran iraq war and yeah its gonna be loving horrible. A good pod
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Jan 3, 2020 06:26
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The Aardvark posted:A good pod its a great pod.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:26
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Idahoant posted:Trump just won reelection. That's basically exactly the point I was trying to make. It's basically entirely why I often shudder at twitter stuff being brought into the thread. That's the stuff that gets tossed around twitter constantly and a good chunk of the reason the platform has become as intolerable for many as it has because it offers far more proactive statements designed to get replies and kick things into a cycle of petty arguing and "keeping score" than it does debate and discussion. It's just very easy to do far better than that, even if it will probably take until tomorrow or even Monday to get a full grasp of the situation and just how far Trump is spinning out this time. If anything it's just another illustration to me of how erratic Trump is and how he makes every decision based on what he sees as "ratings" precisely in the moment. If I move these troops out of Northern Syria maybe people will praise me for "bringing Obama's war closer to a close". What this embassy was attacked? Oh right Benghazi.....classic anti-Obama talking point and I have a chance to "do Benghazi right now". Okay Esper find me a target? Oh also put more troops here so I can post about it on my twitter and how I did the Anti-Benghazi unlike Obama and Hillary okay? Good. That's about how I figure it all went down. Even now I figure a lot of people, pundits, voters and politicians alike just seem too assign too much long term decision making to Trump when all evidence points to him only being able to say or do what he thinks will get him the most applause and praise from his preferred sources in the moment and bonus points if it can be used to slag one of "but my enemies", which in the end is all that ultimately matters to him. This weekend and the 72 hour news cycle, that's almost certainly as far ahead as he's looking at it. Forget the election in November and trying to set up a more favorable position. An excuse to rage at CNN and "the fake news" if one of their pundits criticizes him and a chance to promote Jeanine Pirro or whatever Fox News personality blows his horn the hardest and quickest. I doubt the election is even a real consideration for him until there's a general election opponent and he has a face to make an enemy of and then that'll be literally all you hear about period. It'll be all consuming for his myriad twitter posts. Kale fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Jan 3, 2020 |
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Jan 3, 2020 06:27
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:but in a world where we both stand up at each other and punch until the other guy falls down, we win this one, just at more of a cost in American lives than we've seen since the 70s. For the past couple years I have been doing information tech stuff in the industrial control space and I am much much more terrified at a full on and coordinated attack on the cyberspace front. Hostile nations have been probing and prodding our critical infrastructure for years and as someone in that arena I can confidently say we aren't prepared to defend it. The next major conflict might start with a bomb but it will get real when the power just goes out and just in time delivery infrastructure collapses overnight, and honestly that's just the low hanging fruit.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:27
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:make no mistake: if this turns into a full-on invasion of Iran, it will be the first time American troops have died enough to impact operational efficiency since Vietnam. the Strait can be mined, Scuds are not hard to aim, you can only AEGIS so many cruise missiles down before you need to reload, and while "we will be greeted as liberators" proved to be a hideously bloody joke in Iraq, by comparison to the reception we'll get in Iran the Iraqis might as well have said "please come into my house and gently caress my sister." Losing a carrier to a Silkworm would be the equivalent of the Battle of Antietam or D-Day in terms of American casualties. The thing about the SCUDs now is that they'll be impossible to find. Trump tweeted out the satellite we use to when the Iranians had a launchpad accident, so they can now time when to pull them out, launch them, then hide them and cover the tracks.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:28
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