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For what purpose? And should I begin to fear nuclear war in East Asia again?
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Jan 1, 2020 00:17
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Grouchio posted:For what purpose? And should I begin to fear nuclear war in East Asia again? Are you seriously asking this? No, you shouldn't. Trump has shown that he's a coward.
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Jan 1, 2020 00:28
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Willo567 posted:Are you seriously asking this?
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Jan 1, 2020 00:31
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Grouchio posted:For what purpose? And should I begin to fear nuclear war in East Asia again? The nukes are for deterring American aggression.
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Jan 1, 2020 00:32
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:The nukes are for deterring American aggression. I think he's more worried about Trump than anything
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Jan 1, 2020 00:35
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Willo567 posted:I think he's more worried about Trump than anything Aren't we all?
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Jan 1, 2020 00:54
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Shadow0 posted:Aren't we all? Not really. Remember when Trump and Kim were at it in 2017, and despite Trump's threats, he didn't do jack poo poo?
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Jan 1, 2020 00:58
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Willo567 posted:I think he's more worried about Trump than anything
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Jan 1, 2020 01:42
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Charlz Guybon posted:But he'd totally won Trump over to his side. Trump wasn't going to do anything about the North for the rest of his term/s. Now, with this he might. No he won't. Trump wouldn't even strike Iran in June, not to mention that for his bluster about North Korea in 2017, he didn't do jack poo poo
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Jan 1, 2020 01:44
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Willo567 posted:No he won't. Trump wouldn't even strike Iran in June, not to mention that for his bluster about North Korea in 2017, he didn't do jack poo poo Didn't it come out recently that he'd demanded the evacuation of Seoul in '17 and the cabinet and military just ignored him because it was insane? Who knows what he could demand in the future. There's always a chance that there will be a yes man there at the time who will listen and obey an insane order.
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Jan 1, 2020 05:23
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Trump's two top priorities for handling it are going to be a.) look tough without committing to anything and b.) blame someone else. Problem is he's a complete idiot, so he might think a cruise missile strike is a "no biggie" (just like he thought evacuating military personnel and dependents would be a no biggie) and he's got a bunch of leftover Boltonbots on board now, and the someone else that he's going to blame is probably South Korea. The most optimistic outcome is he'll pretend it's a nothingburger because we have this amazing missile defense system.
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Jan 1, 2020 23:03
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Trump's policy in NK and Iran are entirely "big photo op" based.
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Jan 1, 2020 23:24
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Raenir Salazar on China posted:... let Korea align with its more natural and historical ally and patron. You made this same point back like 2 years ago and you're still letting what you read on premodern Sino-Korean history influence your perception of the present day too much. Whatever premodern friendship the two countries may have had,* it basically got left in its entirety in the 19th century. Modern Koreans absolutely do not look to China as a natural ally, and are far more likely to look at that historical alliance and patronage negatively than positively. And I don't know where you're getting the idea that relations are good; things have been extremely strained ever since the THAAD stuff. It's a bit eclipsed by the more recent Japan trade war but still. *which was also way more turbulent than is usually depicted.
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Jan 2, 2020 02:19
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Its honestly hilarious how westerners keep trying to shoehorn us with China really People in Korea loathe China these days, especially due to their attitude to Korea. Its been strained for a drat long time, such as when China started coopting ancient Korean history as their own. A lot people including myself just prefer having the US here just to push the Chinese influence out.
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Jan 2, 2020 03:15
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boredsatellite posted:People in Korea loathe China these days, especially due to their attitude to Korea. Its been strained for a drat long time, such as when China started coopting ancient Korean history as their own. Do you have any articles about this? From the Ancient History thread in A/T I got the impression it was more often the reverse (e.g., Korean nationalists downplaying historical Chinese cultural influence on Korea). China has its own brand of nationalist pseudohistory, of course, but I didn’t realize ancient Korea played much of a role in it.
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Jan 2, 2020 04:26
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Articles are mostly in Korean so I guess this wiki page will have to do https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goguryeo_controversies Goguryeo has always been a contentious topic overall It's sensitive because China has a very "your history is our history" feel to a lot of their actions which understandably puts a lot of people on edge boredsatellite fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Jan 2, 2020 |
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Jan 2, 2020 04:42
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boredsatellite posted:Articles are mostly in Korean so I guess this wiki page will have to do Thanks!
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Jan 2, 2020 04:50
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Silver2195 posted:Do you have any articles about this? From the Ancient History thread in A/T I got the impression it was more often the reverse (e.g., Korean nationalists downplaying historical Chinese cultural influence on Korea). China has its own brand of nationalist pseudohistory, of course, but I didn’t realize ancient Korea played much of a role in it. There is lots of that too. In Korean popular history and certain facets of academia there is a lot of playing down of Chinese influence (much the same as in Japan). On the flip side, the traditional view of Korean history is in large part built on a foundation of what was essentially Japanese propaganda done during the imperial days, that set out to make Korea appear as backward and subservient to China throughout its entire existence as they possibly could (so they could better justify ruling it as a colony). This has gotten challenged a bunch in recent decades in Korean and western academia, but Chinese academics are generally pretty happy to double down on it. Korea absolutely did draw a huge amount from China, but it was also its own distinct civilization in a huge number of ways, much of which generally goes unappreciated. boredsatellite posted:Goguryeo has always been a contentious topic overall Well part of the thing is that for the longest time it wasn't, it was recognized as a Korean state by essentially everybody for like a thousand years. It goes beyond Goguryeo too, China claims every single classically-viewed-as-Korean state that had parts in Chinese borders as being Chinese. And most states in border regions in other parts of China too, for that matter, although it's not always as simple as them saying they were ethnically Han Chinese. For Goguryeo, here's an article on it by an academic by the way: http://hnn.us/articles/7077.html
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Jan 2, 2020 05:51
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I would not trust the Ancient History thread too much on Asian history. They're accurate in broad strokes but anytime more subjective interpretation comes up they tend to tilt to colonialist stereotypes. The most obvious example being victim blaming Asian cultures for colonialism on the basis of esoteric oriental philosophy rather than forcibly imposed material conditions. Normally I would try to give the benefit of the doubt on stuff like that. But when such conversations are inevitably accompanied by gbs tier racism about modern Asian stereotypes, eh, it gets kind of hard to ignore.
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Jan 2, 2020 06:19
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I’d like to think there’s a mix of perspectives especially since I’m one of them in that thread, but it definitely does often swing that way yeah.
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Jan 2, 2020 06:24
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So this morning CNN said KJU is promising to reveal a new weapon or whatever for the new year and has said he's going back on the deals he made with Cheeto Prez. Can he just wait to start a nuclear war on the peninsula so I can get back to Korea and grab my cat & playstation before fleeing? That'd be the perfect Christmas gift from Josef Pwag this year.
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Jan 2, 2020 07:29
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Koramei posted:You made this same point back like 2 years ago and you're still letting what you read on premodern Sino-Korean history influence your perception of the present day too much. Whatever premodern friendship the two countries may have had,* it basically got left in its entirety in the 19th century. Modern Koreans absolutely do not look to China as a natural ally, and are far more likely to look at that historical alliance and patronage negatively than positively. And I don't know where you're getting the idea that relations are good; things have been extremely strained ever since the THAAD stuff. It's a bit eclipsed by the more recent Japan trade war but still. I think I'm providing a fairly nuanced perspective that in that I think its wrong for westerners to blindly assume South Korea, especially a unified (this is VERY specific context for my posts, I am not claiming S. Korea as matters stand will Ally with China "on it's own" or whatever) as being a threat to Chinese interests. When there's plenty of historical evidence in "broad strokes" that things could easily tilt the other way. I'd put Korean unification up there with the fall of the Berlin wall or the Korean War in terms of momentous historical importance and it is essentially a unprecedented historical event, with unforeseeable ramifications and anything is possible. I am merely stating that it is plausible that China could thread that needle to extract a beneficial relationship from a unified Korean state, and there aren't all that many reasons for such a unified Korean state to see China as a hostile threat to such an extent it would continue to rely upon US military presence. It's basically arrogance and hubris the way some people just assume its impossible when it's like basically a coin flip currently still very much in the air.
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Jan 2, 2020 07:32
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boredsatellite posted:Its honestly hilarious how westerners keep trying to shoehorn us with China really You can also add in part of the loathing is also aimed at China's air pollution that ends up on the peninsula due to the Asian Dust phenomenon (which is only exacerbated by Korea's own pollution issues up in the Incheon/Seoul area). Then you can also include stuff like that Pro-hong kong sign in Korea (by a foreign student) getting defaced by mainland China students at one of the universities where they wrote stuff like "your mom's a comfort woman" which, if anyone knows a bit about the Japanese occupation is a hugely terrible thing that happened to Koreans during then.
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Jan 2, 2020 07:43
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It's worth noting that North Korean are big fans of China right now not due to their historical relationship or Confucianism or Communism but for the much more mundane reason of how from what they can tell the Chinese economic system works really well and the basic principles could also be applied to the North Korean economy- and have, to some fairly robust improvements to quality of life. They'd find the idea of Korea as an abstract concept existing to serve Chinese interests patently insane. For what it's worth China mostly feels the same way, which is why they don't have any permanent military bases there.
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Jan 2, 2020 08:45
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Some Guy TT posted:They'd find the idea of Korea as an abstract concept existing to serve Chinese interests patently insane. And just to be clear, this wasn't my claim either.
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Jan 2, 2020 08:52
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I still don't understand why everyone here is panicking about Trump feeling betrayed by Kim when it's clear by now he won't do poo poo with regards to countries like Iran or Venezuela. Unlike the Middle East, Japan and South Korea absolutely do not want a war with North Korea, and are probably actively making sure that Trump doesn't do something stupid.
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Jan 2, 2020 11:26
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Mekchu posted:You can also add in part of the loathing is also aimed at China's air pollution that ends up on the peninsula due to the Asian Dust phenomenon (which is only exacerbated by Korea's own pollution issues up in the Incheon/Seoul area). Then you can also include stuff like that Pro-hong kong sign in Korea (by a foreign student) getting defaced by mainland China students at one of the universities where they wrote stuff like "your mom's a comfort woman" which, if anyone knows a bit about the Japanese occupation is a hugely terrible thing that happened to Koreans during then. Oh definitely. Every summer the dust becomes a massive problem and you can feel people getting pissed at China
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Jan 2, 2020 11:31
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Some Guy TT posted:It's worth noting that North Korean are big fans of China right now not due to their historical relationship or Confucianism or Communism but for the much more mundane reason of how from what they can tell the Chinese economic system works really well and the basic principles could also be applied to the North Korean economy- and have, to some fairly robust improvements to quality of life. They'd find the idea of Korea as an abstract concept existing to serve Chinese interests patently insane. For what it's worth China mostly feels the same way, which is why they don't have any permanent military bases there. On the whole, the Kims/NK government think that China doesn't actually follow "true communism" and aren't "Communist enough" though. At least that was the sentiment explained in Nothing to Envy by Barbara Demick (which is a fantastic book to read about N. Korea). boredsatellite posted:Oh definitely. Every summer the dust becomes a massive problem and you can feel people getting pissed at China I lived in Seoul for 2 years before moving south and yeah, Asian Dust is absolutely terrible. I only have micro dust allergies and it wreaked havoc on my sinuses. Thankfully where I'm at in Korea there's less issues with the AQI and so its less an issue anymore.
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Jan 2, 2020 13:54
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Raenir Salazar posted:I think I'm providing a fairly nuanced perspective that in that I think its wrong for westerners to blindly assume South Korea, especially a unified (this is VERY specific context for my posts, I am not claiming S. Korea as matters stand will Ally with China "on it's own" or whatever) as being a threat to Chinese interests. When there's plenty of historical evidence in "broad strokes" that things could easily tilt the other way. I'd put Korean unification up there with the fall of the Berlin wall or the Korean War in terms of momentous historical importance and it is essentially a unprecedented historical event, with unforeseeable ramifications and anything is possible. Things definitely could theoretically end up so that Korea, unified or even the south, ends up aligned with China. Who knows what'll happen in the decades to come. It's basing that off the premodern relationship that's silly.
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Jan 2, 2020 19:03
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Willo567 posted:I still don't understand why everyone here is panicking about Trump feeling betrayed by Kim when it's clear by now he won't do poo poo with regards to countries like Iran or Venezuela. It seems like you've probably been ready for a different AV for a while, lol.
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Jan 2, 2020 21:39
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Koramei posted:Things definitely could theoretically end up so that Korea, unified or even the south, ends up aligned with China. Who knows what'll happen in the decades to come. Not really anymore silly than assuming that because S. Korea is a Democracy it will be best friends forever with Japan and the US. Any any other of debunked Francis Fukuyama nonsense.
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Jan 2, 2020 21:50
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If you said that instead I would also think it was a silly thing to say, yes.
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Jan 2, 2020 22:09
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Willo567 posted:I still don't understand why everyone here is panicking about Trump feeling betrayed by Kim when it's clear by now he won't do poo poo with regards to countries like Iran or Venezuela. Well, this post aged like fine wine in the space of 24 hours.
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Jan 3, 2020 13:27
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Megillah Gorilla posted:Well, this post aged like fine wine in the space of 24 hours. I still don't think we should worry about a war with North Korea, considering that they have nuclear weapons, and that after the poo poo show with Iran, Japan and South Korea are going to be constantly reminding the administration that they don't want a war
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Jan 3, 2020 19:32
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OneEightHundred posted:so he might think a cruise missile strike is a "no biggie" (just like he thought evacuating military personnel and dependents would be a no biggie) and he's got a bunch of leftover Boltonbots on board now
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Jan 4, 2020 09:21
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OneEightHundred posted:This is aging pretty well though. Strangely, yeah. And I can't help but wonder what the events of the year sooo far are going to do to complicate US/SK
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Jan 4, 2020 17:09
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https://twitter.com/nkmessenger/status/1215682415882051584?s=21
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Jan 11, 2020 20:53
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Sanctions are to neolibs what the fake punt in Madden is to me. Never works, but damned if I don't do it every time!
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Jan 11, 2020 22:47
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https://twitter.com/johncarlbaker/status/1218179617271492609?s=20 It appears to have been canceled, thankfully, but that this was even suggested makes me feel ill. Syghman Rhee was a con artist who was mistrusted by most serious figures in the Korean Independence Movement and murdered as many of them as he could get away with when the United States was paying out for the scalps of alleged Communists. The United States then spent most of his ensuing dictatorship undermining him because they correctly realized that Rhee's number one priority was to drag them into Korean War: Part Two. This would be like Argentina trying to honor German immigrants by building statues to Nazis.
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Jan 22, 2020 03:50
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Oh jeez whose loving bright idea was that
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Jan 22, 2020 05:00
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