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VitalSigns posted:If Billy opposes Medicare For All because having health care makes him feel superior to the poors, he's part of the problem and the persecution complex those people have about being told this fact is unbelievable The person you're attacking because they said they make six figures did literally the exact opposite of that though and said they recognize how good they have it and how easily it could all go away.
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Jan 7, 2020 17:22
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Mellow Seas posted:Yeah, rather than saying “it’s INSANE for a household to have $120k of income” we should be pointing out that even people who are 90th percentile in this stupid country don’t have genuine financial security. This should be the real focus instead of bickering over some arbitrary income cutoff.
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Jan 7, 2020 17:23
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kidkissinger posted:We need to do both  Although just gutting the military would easily pay for M4A and in-state tuition.
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Jan 7, 2020 17:23
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Thoguh posted:The person you're attacking because they said they make six figures did literally the exact opposite of that though and said they recognize how good they have it and how easily it could all go away. I'm not attacking that person (oxsnard), I'm pointing out the conversation exists because other people were arguing against Medicare For All by imagining unreasonable positions, attributing them to imaginary HENRYs who aren't even here, and then demanding these impossible concerns be placated
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Jan 7, 2020 17:24
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Thoguh posted:The person you're attacking because they said they make six figures did literally the exact opposite of that though and said they recognize how good they have it and how easily it could all go away. eh, I don't feel attacked. It's ok. I think it's a healthy discussion to have
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Jan 7, 2020 17:24
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VitalSigns posted:I'm not attacking that person (oxsnard), I'm pointing out the conversation exists because other people were arguing against Medicare For All by imagining unreasonable positions, attributing them to imaginary HENRYs who aren't even here, and then demanding these impossible concerns be placated  we're cool
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Jan 7, 2020 17:25
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Also: https://www.laweekly.com/it-takes-nearly-100000-a-year-in-income-to-rent-an-average-l-a-house/ It takes almost 100k a year just to rent a house in LA. That's the real criminal act. Kill all real-estate vultures and use their bones as the foundations for rent-controlled housing.
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Jan 7, 2020 17:25
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real talk, if anyone itt is interested in making $80-100k at a union job within a few years and is ok with moving, PM me
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Jan 7, 2020 17:26
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Thoguh posted:The person you're attacking because they said they make six figures did literally the exact opposite of that though and said they recognize how good they have it and how easily it could all go away. This entire stupid derail started because Shbobdb was concern trolling that people making 200k a year in insurance would lose their jobs and that while he is *totally* for M4A we can't really propose without doing more to assuage the hurt feelings of people making 200k a year.
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Jan 7, 2020 17:27
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ratbert90 posted:Also: https://www.laweekly.com/it-takes-nearly-100000-a-year-in-income-to-rent-an-average-l-a-house/ It’s almost like housing and food and clothing should be basic human rights and while Bernie’s policies are good they only scratch the surface of the problems with our world. We’re here debating on how mean we can be to people making six figures while billions in the global south have nothing. Have some goddamn perspective please.
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Jan 7, 2020 17:27
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Lightning Knight posted:It’s almost like housing and food and clothing should be basic human rights and while Bernie’s policies are good they only scratch the surface of the problems with our world. I agree, but pitting everyone lower than them against each other is key tactic the capital class uses to maintain power, so it's an important discussion to have imo
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Jan 7, 2020 17:34
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VitalSigns posted:I'm not attacking that person (oxsnard), I'm pointing out the conversation exists because other people were arguing against Medicare For All by imagining unreasonable positions, attributing them to imaginary HENRYs who aren't even here, and then demanding these impossible concerns be placated Sorry oxsnard  I want everyone to have M4A so there is reason to bring up standards instead of whoever has the most money gets the best care. I make over 100k a year and have good insurance on top of that. If I lost my job it would be a problem, but much less of a problem than someone making even half of what I make. No one should worry about losing everything because they got sick, and there shouldn't be tiers of care based on how much money you have.
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Jan 7, 2020 17:34
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I think part of the problem with the discussion is some people are using terms like "six figures" "over 100k" as an implied standard of living as opposed to absolute dollar amounts. Our goal should be to bring everyone *up* to that standard of living (financial security, good education for their kids, healthcare, etc), and I think people are interpreting certain comments as we need to bring people who have that down, which I don't think anyone is actually saying.
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Jan 7, 2020 17:35
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Faustian Bargain posted:I wasn't trying to attack oxsnard either. I think the argument about being concerned with whatever the 200k/year insurance adjusters will do and we definitely need their support is idiotic, which I don't think oxsnard was this person. seriously, it's all good. I have thick skin and don't feel attacked
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Jan 7, 2020 17:35
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Kraftwerk posted:I don’t wanna defend anyone making 200k per year because it really is an obscene sum of money. Bolding mine. My 1960s 1 bedroom apartment with no improvements or 'luxuries' (though we do have an on-site washer/dryer that is $4 per load...) is $3000 a month. My $120,000 gross a year salary immediately becomes $84,000. A previous poster 'joked' about guillotining anyone making over 100k; Not everyone lives in Ohio. Wicked Them Beats posted:though it might have a slight pay cut (everyone making over $100k should get a pay cut (via guillotine)). Give me guaranteed quality healthcare and I'll quit my job, move somewhere else and fight for our climate. 
Bald Stalin fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Jan 7, 2020 |
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Jan 7, 2020 17:36
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oxsnard posted:I agree, but pitting everyone lower than them against each other is key tactic the capital class uses to maintain power, so it's an important discussion to have imo The problem with this view as applied to the PMC class is that most of them are fully willing to be henchmen for capital.
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Jan 7, 2020 17:37
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Cerebral Bore posted:The problem with this view as applied to the PMC class is that most of them are fully willing to be henchmen for capital. i posted this above, but a lot of that has to do with race as well. Rural chuds living at the poverty line are just as willing to do the same
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Jan 7, 2020 17:38
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I'm beginning to think that Joe Biden's recent "I was against the Iraq invasion from the beginning!" gambit may not have been a wise one. https://twitter.com/ryangrim/status/1214529955637448704
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Jan 7, 2020 17:40
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Functional social services would actually make life better for top few%ers anyways. Better public transit opens up more lanes for cybertrux or stretch limos or whatever it is they use, for example. Less crime. I suppose it would be harder to scrape the money for 50k+ private schools and personal MRI machines but thems the breaks
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Jan 7, 2020 17:41
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It's bringing attention to the fact that he says things like "come to our milk" 
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Jan 7, 2020 17:42
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oxsnard posted:i posted this above, but a lot of that has to do with race as well. Rural chuds living at the poverty line are just as willing to do the same Rurla chuds aren't in a position to be henchmen for capital on account of having no real power to speak of when compared to the PMC. This one of the reasons for why class analysis is absolutely critical.
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Jan 7, 2020 17:44
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TVs Ian posted:Probably some form of instant runoff voting. Keep the 15% threshold for the final delegate counts, but make sure something that shows x% of candidate 1's votes were the second choice of candidate 2 voters, or however it breaks down. Why do you need to retain the delegate system for selecting the presidential candidate? Select the candidate directly using an instant runoff (or approval or similar) vote. Probably needs to be combined with just one voting period (vote day + early voting) rather than separate per-state election periods, otherwise the tactilol voting aspects just shift around.
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Jan 7, 2020 17:53
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Cerebral Bore posted:Rurla chuds aren't in a position to be henchmen for capital on account of having no real power to speak of when compared to the PMC. This one of the reasons for why class analysis is absolutely critical. I'm a member of the PMC. What powers do I have? I'm genuinely curious what you mean by this
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Jan 7, 2020 17:53
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oxsnard posted:I'm a member of the PMC. What powers do I have? I'm genuinely curious what you mean by this See, this is exactly why you and other liberals keep missing the point. You immediately think that power has to be held held by an individual rather that understanding that power is held by a class as a whole. And a class that holds more power and uses it to aid and protect the oligarchy should obviously be of a far greater concern that a class that has been deliberately relegated to near-powerlessness in society.
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Jan 7, 2020 17:58
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oxsnard posted:I'm a member of the PMC. What powers do I have? I'm genuinely curious what you mean by this Your deep thoughts get posted on LinkedIn or Medium. Theirs go on Facebook. You have guides and books and courses and coaches that can help you perform the expectations society has for you. They have people calling them names if they do the wrong thing. You get training and advancement opportunities just showing up to work. They get voluntary unpaid overtime. Your concerns fit neatly in the mouths of legislators, or at least more neatly than theirs do. You speak the language that gets managers to understand your concerns and bend policy or kick it up the chain, their language only gets a finger pointing at a line in the employee manual as an answer. I used to be poor, and now I'm not, and the main thing besides having more money that has changed is that I've noticed all the ways society coddles me and cushions me that it didn't used to.
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Jan 7, 2020 18:02
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Ornedan posted:Why do you need to retain the delegate system for selecting the presidential candidate? So the DNC can steal it if the voters vote wrong
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Jan 7, 2020 18:04
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What the gently caress is PMC? Is it “professional middle class”? So you guys just hate anyone with a good job now? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 7, 2020 18:07
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Ogmius815 posted:What the gently caress is PMC? Is it “professional middle class”? So you guys just hate anyone with a good job now? Indeed, the "class" part of that phrase surely doesn't have anything to do with it. We hate them (even though many of us are in the PMC) for their jobs. And their freedoms.
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Jan 7, 2020 18:10
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Ogmius815 posted:What the gently caress is PMC? Is it “professional middle class”? So you guys just hate anyone with a good job now? Professional Managerial Class. A proposed third class between Bourgeoise and proletariat.
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Jan 7, 2020 18:10
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Ogmius815 posted:What the gently caress is PMC? Is it “professional middle class”? So you guys just hate anyone with a good job now? If you’re a white collar worker with no self-awareness whatsoever of why blue collar workers, service workers, and other marginalized people might resent you and how that resentment is at least partially or mostly justified you are a fool. I say this from my cubicle.
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Jan 7, 2020 18:12
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Ogmius815 posted:What the gently caress is PMC? Is it “professional middle class”? So you guys just hate anyone with a good job now? Of course it would be you who gets real mad when the peons don't show enough deference to their betters.
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Jan 7, 2020 18:15
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Broadly speaking, people respond poorly to the "stop attacking people who make six figures" folks because it's literally the class equivalent of white people whining when minorities say negative things about them. While there is a clear distinction between high-paid labor and capital in terms of the political power each group wields, there is also a clear distinction between high-paid labor and most of the working class in terms of their personal interests. Even if the former doesn't stand to lose much from socialism (or social democracy), they're generally going to end up on the wrong side because they have more to potentially lose than they do to gain and are risk averse as a result. It also doesn't help that their experiences are likely to isolate them from normal people. Another way of putting things is that anyone making six figures who is capable of being driven away by people who say bad things about people making six figures is a bad person who never would have been any sort of ally in the first place. Again, the same logic as "white people who whine about minorities saying negative things about them." Ranter posted:My 1960s 1 bedroom apartment with no improvements or 'luxuries' (though we do have an on-site washer/dryer that is $4 per load...) is $3000 a month. My $120,000 gross a year salary immediately becomes $84,000. A previous poster 'joked' about guillotining anyone making over 100k; Not everyone lives in Ohio. Part of the reason why the "cost of living is higher" argument doesn't really work is that it's more-or-less a flat deduction, and anyone making six figures is still going to be left with a very high income even after deducting the higher cost of living. Like, in your case, your post-housing salary is still extremely high. The main difference it makes is that "mid-high 5 figure" incomes can become relatively low in places with high cost of living, but once you hit 6 figures you're still at least doing as well as a high 5-figure person in a low cost of living area (unless you're the only income raising a family or something). Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Jan 7, 2020 |
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Jan 7, 2020 18:17
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Cerebral Bore posted:Rurla chuds aren't in a position to be henchmen for capital on account of having no real power to speak of when compared to the PMC. This one of the reasons for why class analysis is absolutely critical. They have plenty of political power though. Considering Trump and countless terrible state Republicans wouldn't have gotten elected without them on his side.
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Jan 7, 2020 18:20
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GlyphGryph posted:They have plenty of political power though. Considering Trump and countless terrible state Republicans wouldn't have gotten elected without them on his side. a Wyoming chud has voting power 4 times higher than I do for presidential elections and 30 times higher for the senate
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Jan 7, 2020 18:23
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It also takes a lot of intentional blindness to not see that a lot of political posturing is done directly to appeal to the six figures crowd. Look at Buttigieg and Warren's supporters, broadly. There's a reason that you see a certain type of well-credentialed, erudite politician, and it's not because that's the foremost care of the billionaire class. It's because those people speak to the six-figure crowd, which is the same group that helps fund their run, helps run and staff their campaigns, and so on.
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Jan 7, 2020 18:23
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oxsnard posted:a Wyoming chud has voting power 4 times higher than I do for presidential elections and 30 times higher for the senate People don't take efforts to cater to Wyoming chuds they way they do to people like you (or me) even if that's invisible to you.
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Jan 7, 2020 18:24
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Never get tired of people who have a billion ghoulish reasons why the working poor don't deserve healthcare, who melt down about being hated if someone says "no gently caress that, you're just a tool of capital and your reasons are bullshit propaganda billionaires fed to you to convince you you're a temporarily embarrassed member of their class"
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Jan 7, 2020 18:27
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Bushido Brown posted:People don't take efforts to cater to Wyoming chuds they way they do to people like you (or me) even if that's invisible to you. Well by Wyoming chuds do you mean the wealthy conservative coal mining executives or do you mean the guy driving the truck at the coal mine?
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Jan 7, 2020 18:27
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Poor whites actually split about evenly between Trump and Clinton, FYI, Trump's base is people making 70-150k a year
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Jan 7, 2020 18:27
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GlyphGryph posted:They have plenty of political power though. Considering Trump and countless terrible state Republicans wouldn't have gotten elected without them on his side. This is tantamount to saying that black people actually have plenty of political power because a whole lot of Dems wouldn't have been elected without their votes. The fact of the matter is that political power in the US has been thoroughly decoupled from the wishes of the electorate. Granted, the GOP is more responsive to its voters on some issues, but still. Also it bears repeating the GOP base is and always has been suburban middle class assholes. Hell, poor rural redneck caricatures most likely don't even vote in the first place. oxsnard posted:a Wyoming chud has voting power 4 times higher than I do for presidential elections and 30 times higher for the senate Both you and the Wyoming chud as individuals are completely and utterly irrelevant, hth. Any individual vote is irrelevant. The only way that you can understand what's really going on in by realizing that political power is always wielded by groups.
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Jan 7, 2020 18:28
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