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I feel like at this point the movies have had like, half a dozen examples of demonstrating you can be a force ghost or voice without being dead. It doesn't feel like a plot hole.
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Jan 8, 2020 17:56
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It's already established that the Force has WiFi. Why can't a living Ahsoka join a conference call with a bunch of dead people? The Virgin Rey vs. the Chad Ahsoka. SuperMechagodzilla posted:The issue is that TV narratives almost never consist of a series of standalone episodes and/or function as cohesive roughly-ten-hour multi-part videos. They tend to occupy this nebulous area between the two, with ‘previously on...’ montages serving as a stopgap. Darko posted:On the flip side, Lucas TV is probably at its best in some contained 3-4 episode arcs of Clone Wars which just work as a contained movie (moreso than the Clone Wars movie), even though they have a blatant previously-on narrator at the start of each episode that makes sure you remember what happened in the last one (for the kids). Rebels is altogether "good" for very good high points and decent character arcs, but it suffers a bit from jumping around and lack of focus to be episodic or not at times, which gets into what you say. Darth TNT posted:So I guess they weren't Luke's other students after all. I take it they're all just dead. jisforjosh posted:It looked like a random shot from some terrible music video for a doom metal band As for "Why?" I don't have an answer. It's one of those Expanded Universe ideas that's like, okay, I guess that makes sense, but so what? It doesn't add anything insightful to the setting, and it doesn't fill in any details about the setting. It just answers the dangling question of "Who are those guys?" The Knights of Ren are a way-less-interesting version of the Black Skulls from Mandy.
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Jan 8, 2020 18:05
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Read a fun thinkpiece last night about how Luke's fuckup and critique of the Jedi being arrogant in TLJ ends up being the most salient thing in the whole NuTrilogy.
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Jan 8, 2020 18:16
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FilthyImp posted:Read a fun thinkpiece last night about how Luke's fuckup and critique of the Jedi being arrogant in TLJ ends up being the most salient thing in the whole NuTrilogy. It’s the plot of the prequels.
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Jan 8, 2020 18:17
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euphronius posted:It’s the plot of the prequels. Also: the original trilogy
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Jan 8, 2020 18:21
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It's like... poetry?
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Jan 8, 2020 18:32
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FilthyImp posted:Read a fun thinkpiece last night about how Luke's fuckup and critique of the Jedi being arrogant in TLJ ends up being the most salient thing in the whole NuTrilogy. The problem of the Jedi Order wasn't that they were arrogant, though. Like, should they have humbly supported fascism? Would humility have stopped Palpatine? Like I wrote earlier, the "Luke should be perfect / Luke should be imperfect" argument is a pseudodebate because no-one on either side is defining "perfection" in concrete terms. Luke's actual, specific arc in TLJ is to go from blaming everyone else for the Republic's failure to blaming himself for the Republic's failure. This means that, from beginning to end, Luke is a Republican. His ultimate 'redemption' to give his life to promote Republicanism. This is shown, through the repetition of the swordfight, to have been the message all along: Luke believes that, when he sensed the 'dark thoughts', he should have taunted and pushed Ben to kill him. That way Luke would become a martyr to the cause, and Ben would be smeared as a bad crazyman. The attempted murder, Luke believes, was wrong purely because it was bad optics.
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Jan 8, 2020 18:47
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The problem of the Jedi Order wasn't that they were arrogant, though. Like, should they have humbly supported fascism? Would humility have stopped Palpatine? On a political level, the Jedi didn’t see a Sith, so it couldn’t have existed. Like Jocasta Nu said, if it wasn’t in their records, it didn’t exist to them. Had the Jedi taken a more active interest in investigating anything rather than going “oh that’s weird but it can’t be too important otherwise we would have known about it,” things might’ve played out differently. On a personal level, the Jedi - and especially Obi-Wan’s - constant insistence on following tradition without question isolated Anakin. If Anakin had get like he had a confident in anyone else besides Sheev, it’s hard to imagine him turning on the Order at a critical point.
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Jan 8, 2020 19:01
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I'd say the Jedi were arrogant about their religion. They thought they beat the Sith so they had no opposition, they were on top forever in a high position of power as the galaxy's police force/enforcers with no actual oversight, and they thought they knew everything due to being able to see the future a little bit. So when things come to shake up their status quo, they were like "nah, we don't have to change anything or address it, let's just do what we've always done because we were obviously always right." The big kicker comes from who they didn't allow on the council; they didn't allow Qui Gon on there because his understanding of the Force was a little different (and somewhat validated since he's the one that figured out applications of the force that nobody figured out for thousands of years), they kicked Syfo Dyas off of the council because he could see the future better than them and saw the upcoming war, they were dumb enough to let Palpatine troll them into putting Anakin on the council, knowing they'd (especially Mace) be dicks to him, etc. I mean, the biggest flaw I see from them is just being plain dumb and inflexible, but arrogance is a part of that.
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Jan 8, 2020 19:14
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That graphic from a couple pages back sums up a whole lot of the fan backlash against the ST, and a whole lot about Star Wars storytelling in general. In order to 'soft-reboot' the series, to retell a Rebels vs. Empire type story, the ST has to undo whats accomplished in the original trilogy. And, understandably, fans don't really like that. But, they also want the warm comfort food of nostalgia. There's a tension there that can't really be resolved. At the same time, there's something interesting to be said on the fact that there is no End of History. In the real world, there is no riding off into the sunset. Every empire overthrown has a difficult, uncertain reconstruction period. There are certainly interesting stories to be told in that vein. But these movies are also violently afraid of doing anything like that - TFA is so terrified of doing it you could be forgiven missing there even was a New Republic its wiped away so fast. TLJ maybe gestures towards something new but cannot escape the centripetal force of Rebels vs. Empire, even when its self aware enough to joke about how its stuck in that cycle. And well, the less said about ROS the better. The only thing the sequel trilogy could have done was leave this stuff behind, to truly 'let the past die', tell a new story. But, the backlash to the prequels really must have scared Disney off too much. It was a self-fulfilling prophecy, the second they decided to reboot the whole conflict, the movies were doomed.
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Jan 8, 2020 19:30
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Boxman posted:On a political level, the Jedi didn’t see a Sith The problem was not that there was a Sith. Sheev was just one man, taking advantage of massive systemic failures in the Republic. There was a good joke cut from Episode 3, where Sheev says like “so what if I’m a Sith? Those are just my religious beliefs. Are you going to kill me for that?” And he’s totally right there. Even at the end of Episode 3, it is never actually proven that Palpatine and Sidious are the same person. Zero evidence. But the point there is not that the Jedi should have tried harder to find evidence of Exogolian collusion, or murder Sidious earlier - because that’s not why the war was unjust. The war is unjust regardless of whether there was a satanic conspiracy or not. Things were unjust long before the war. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jan 8, 2020 |
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Jan 8, 2020 19:43
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It's a long time since I've seen the prequels but iirc an early indication that the Jedi are kind of hosed up is that they escape Gunray's assassination attempt and instead of trying to escape the ship they head to the bridge, and the imagery of Qui-Gon slowwwwly cutting through the blast door is pretty threatening, like a callback to the start of ANH. The Nemoydians seem pretty certain that if he gets through the door he's going to kill them all. Where's the peace and justice?!
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Jan 8, 2020 20:04
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Despite being unimpressed with what we got for movies (still need to see Mandolorian), I can't stop thinking about this bloody franchise. The current thought I'm having is if there's any way to do a soft reboot that I would find satisfying? I'm hesitant to say that it's impossible-so much comes down to execution in film.
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Jan 8, 2020 20:05
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Having recently been to Galaxy's Edge, the new Star Wars themed segment of Disneyland, I can say with certainty that any and all large Star Wars cinema pieces will forever be mired in rebels vs empire. There's too much money locked into that narrative innertia.
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Jan 8, 2020 20:11
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SirPhoebos posted:Despite being unimpressed with what we got for movies (still need to see Mandolorian), I can't stop thinking about this bloody franchise. They could do movies with new sets of characters (or borrow from EU stuff like they have been) that happens during the "off season" of the main trilogies. Like how Shadows of the Empire is in between ESB and RotJ. You could still flesh out the old characters that way too without actually rebooted versions of them or it being totally about them again.
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Jan 8, 2020 20:18
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Boxman posted:On a political level, the Jedi didn’t see a Sith, so it couldn’t have existed. Like Jocasta Nu said, if it wasn’t in their records, it didn’t exist to them. Had the Jedi taken a more active interest in investigating anything rather than going “oh that’s weird but it can’t be too important otherwise we would have known about it,” things might’ve played out differently. The Jedi are explicitly aware of their dark side clouding all their actions, and briefly consider telling the senate (their bosses) of their handicap. It's not arrogance but fear that prevents them from addressing their issues. They're wrong and they (or at least their top men) know they're wrong, but hammer down along their current path in case the can of worms they open is worse than galactic war and most of their number dying off.
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Jan 8, 2020 20:21
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Darko posted:The big kicker comes from who they didn't allow on the council; they didn't allow Qui Gon on there because his understanding of the Force was a little different (and somewhat validated since he's the one that figured out applications of the force that nobody figured out for thousands of years), they kicked Syfo Dyas off of the council because he could see the future better than them and saw the upcoming war, they were dumb enough to let Palpatine troll them into putting Anakin on the council, knowing they'd (especially Mace) be dicks to him, etc. Strange how you frame the exclusion of the first two - whose actions directly let to Bad Times - as mistakes. Mace Windu had been a dick to Anakin since the day they met.
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Jan 8, 2020 20:24
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sassassin posted:Strange how you frame the exclusion of the first two - whose actions directly let to Bad Times - as mistakes. Certainly with Dyas the Council would've been much better off keeping him in the fold. Had he still been in close communication with the Council it would've been much easier to uncover the clone army plot before it was too late. The only reason Dooku was able to pull that off is because Dyas dropping off the map wasn't a surprise to them, they assumed he'd done it of his own accord because of their falling out.
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Jan 8, 2020 20:32
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Basebf555 posted:Certainly with Dyas the Council would've been much better off keeping him in the fold. Had he still been in close communication with the Council it would've been much easier to uncover the clone army plot before it was too late. The only reason Dooku was able to pull that off is because Dyas dropping off the map wasn't a surprise to them, they assumed he'd done it of his own accord because of their falling out. I don't think the Jedi knowing that the Republic had a clone army available sooner would have solved the problem of them using it to defend democracy as it transitioned into an Empire (to thunderous applause).
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Jan 8, 2020 20:36
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SirPhoebos posted:Despite being unimpressed with what we got for movies (still need to see Mandolorian), I can't stop thinking about this bloody franchise. Yes. All they needed to do is keep Han and Leia and the Falcon together and do one movie before TFA which explains the First Order. Give Luke a cameo looking all troubled and End the movie with the Academy burning down.
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Jan 8, 2020 20:36
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sassassin posted:I don't think the Jedi knowing that the Republic had a clone army available sooner would have solved the problem of them using it to defend democracy as it transitioned into an Empire (to thunderous applause). It's not just when they'd know it, it's the fact that they'd be able to just go up to Dyas and ask him about the army, and uncover the plot right then and there. Or, assuming Dyas is killed despite still being a Council member, they'd immediately investigate his disappearance and have a much better chance of uncovering the plot that way. Point is, their falling out with Dyas is what makes Dooku's plan so believable to them and leads them towards the decision to use the clones. It makes sense that Dyas disappeared so they don't question it.
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Jan 8, 2020 20:42
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sassassin posted:Strange how you frame the exclusion of the first two - whose actions directly let to Bad Times - as mistakes. Anakin becoming a Jedi didn't lead to bad times because he wasn't bad on his own. He was nurtured terribly by the Order, who handled him wrongly in every single way and decision they made about him, which allowed Palpatine to manipulate him. Hell, invisible Force ghost Qui Gon was basically the only one around noticing and caring about Anakin's drops to the dark side when they happened. His closest friend and mentor and counsel member Obi Wan didn't really notice, and Yoda kind of noticed, I guess (but maybe more Qui Gon flipping out from the afterlife) and did absolutely nothing about it. Sifo-Dyas going off and doing his own thing in desperation because the Jedi wouldn't listen to his visions is how Dooku and Palpatine were able to take over the clone operation and Order 66 everyone. The army was specifically because he saw a war coming, kept warning the council about it, and nobody literally did anything about it to the point of kicking him off the council because they were so complacent in their ways.
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Jan 8, 2020 21:00
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Darth TNT posted:Yes. All they needed to do is keep Han and Leia and the Falcon together and do one movie before TFA which explains the First Order. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmaad0IIUUg
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Jan 8, 2020 21:01
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2house2fly posted:It's a long time since I've seen the prequels but iirc an early indication that the Jedi are kind of hosed up is that they escape Gunray's assassination attempt and instead of trying to escape the ship they head to the bridge, and the imagery of Qui-Gon slowwwwly cutting through the blast door is pretty threatening, like a callback to the start of ANH. The Nemoydians seem pretty certain that if he gets through the door he's going to kill them all. Where's the peace and justice?! It's a visual quotation of the climax of "Forbidden Planet," which y'all should watch, where an invisible monster, arising from Dr. Morbius' subconscious, is trying to force its way through the armored door of his laboratory and kill his daughter, because deep down and despite his better judgment and loving nature, he is still angry that she fell in love; after some explanation, the monster breaks through the door, and he throws himself in front of it, and it kills him, in the process unmaking itself.
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Jan 8, 2020 21:02
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Also, the attitude of Obi Wan and Qui Gon when getting ambushed and gassed in the center of an unfriendly ship full of enemy combatants was to lackadaisically not care because they were so far beneath them. The whole thing until Maul appeared was just "we'll casually do whatever the hell we want, even if it means psychically controlling heads of state to get our way because that's our right." sassassin posted:I don't think the Jedi knowing that the Republic had a clone army available sooner would have solved the problem of them using it to defend democracy as it transitioned into an Empire (to thunderous applause). Missed this but it was addressed above; Syfo-Dyas created the clone army on his own specifically because he got kicked off the council *because* he kept warning them that he saw the entire galaxy getting hosed up by a giant war.
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Jan 8, 2020 21:06
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Darko posted:Anakin becoming a Jedi didn't lead to bad times because he wasn't bad on his own. He was nurtured terribly by the Order, who handled him wrongly in every single way and decision they made about him, which allowed Palpatine to manipulate him. Hell, invisible Force ghost Qui Gon was basically the only one around noticing and caring about Anakin's drops to the dark side when they happened. His closest friend and mentor and counsel member Obi Wan didn't really notice, and Yoda kind of noticed, I guess (but maybe more Qui Gon flipping out from the afterlife) and did absolutely nothing about it. The Force told Qui Gon to save Anakin's mother. He decided he knew better. Obi Wan tells Qui Gon he sense the phantom menace right at the beginning of the movie. Qui Gon tells him to shut the gently caress up and focus on their immediate, obvious goals. Qui Gon is the first Jedi to achieve the ultimate meddling power of immortality. Building an army for a future war was exactly what the guy leading both sides wanted. The only winning move for the Jedi was not to play (and instead go fight slavery as their chosen one insisted was the only option that made sense). Is your assertion that the Jedi arming themselves earlier would somehow enable them to defeat Supreme Chancellor Palpatine and restore the Republic to imagined glory? Order 66 is a clean up job. The fatal damage is long since done by that point.
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Jan 8, 2020 21:10
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Darko posted:Missed this but it was addressed above; Syfo-Dyas created the clone army on his own specifically because he got kicked off the council *because* he kept warning them that he saw the entire galaxy getting hosed up by a giant war. They were right to get rid of this fear-mongering moron who contributed to the fall of the Republic by manufacturing one side of the fake war.
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Jan 8, 2020 21:15
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sassassin posted:Mace Windu had been a dick to Anakin since the day they met. I still LOL at the Shaw Bros. level of how possibly everything would have been fine if this one exchange didn't happen: Revenge of the Sith posted:ANAKIN enters and stands in the middle of the room. He is surrounded by the Jedi Council MACE WINDU, EETH KOTH OBI-WAN, YODA, the HOLOGRAMS of PLO KOON and KI-ADI-MUNDI. Like drat dude you all openly NOTICE this is bizarre but still just do what Palpatine says but only sort of? We all joke about how lovely and succeeded only because people are arrogant/incompetent Palpatine's plans all are, but this was probably the one genius part of it. Like this is way more insulting than if they just outright rejected Anakin joining the council. If that happened it'd be disappointing but expected because Anakin already assumes they wouldn't give up electing their own members. Once again third way centrism destroys the galaxy. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Jan 8, 2020 |
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Jan 8, 2020 21:17
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sassassin posted:Order 66 is a clean up job. The fatal damage is long since done by that point. We're talking about uncovering the plot long before then. If Dyas disappears while still a Jedi Council member in good standing, they investigate and potentially uncover the plot before Palpatine is even able to take power in the Senate. If Dooku orders the army under his own name, the Jedi are much much more hesitant to use the army and at the very least would do a much more intense investigation and have a better chance of finding out the truth about Order 66. The key thing that leads to the Jedi accepting the clone army is that they think Dyas is the one who ordered it so based on that Yoda is willing to put his suspicions aside.
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Jan 8, 2020 21:19
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sassassin posted:The Force told Qui Gon to save Anakin's mother. He decided he knew better. Ignoring Force visions is basically the Jedi's downfall. - If your most powerful vision see-er keeps seeing a future giant war that messes up the galaxy, look for the signs of the war starting and work together to prevent it. Instead, they ignored it, he got desperate and goofed it all up and the Jedi all but all died because of that goof up. Palpatine just plays things by ear and makes it work in his favor and took advantage of the clones already after the droid army was well into creation; the Trade Federation was building droid armies no matter what and war was probably inevitable; the Jedi just ignored the initial signs on Naboo and didn't work within the Senate to try to avert this and ended up creating their own executioners to counter it. Note they went from "we aren't involved in this" to "we're the generals in charge of this whole war on the Republic's side," ONLY because one of their own was on the other side, similar to how they were "not involved" in Naboo until a Sith showed up. Only Syfo-Dyas actually cared about the galaxy itself. If Syfo-Dyas was instead like "I see the Sith coming back and taking over," they probably would have been all over it, because they only care about their own stuff.
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Jan 8, 2020 21:26
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Darko posted:Ignoring Force visions is basically the Jedi's downfall. That's what Anakin thought before he killed his wife.
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Jan 8, 2020 21:32
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Mike N Eich posted:But, the backlash to the prequels really must have scared Disney off too much. Looking at Box Office Mojo's top adjusted grosses, in the top 20 you have all of the OT movies, TFA, and TPM. Then in TLJ, ROTS, ATOC, and currently at 107, TROS. Disney having a problem with the prequels would make sense if the prequels were failures like Solo, coming in at under 500. But they didn't; they are (and were at the time of purchase) within the top 100 grossing movies. So their mangling of the ST seems to have worked out financially for them, but at the time, it's baffling to make the decision to say, "No to your stories George Lucas (what do you even know about Star Wars?), we're making movies for the fans!"
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Jan 8, 2020 21:33
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(quote!=edit)
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Jan 8, 2020 21:33
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Neo Rasa posted:I still LOL at the Shaw Bros. level of how possibly everything would have been fine if this one exchange didn't happen: If you take Clone Wars into the equation, this is also not long after Anakin's Padawan quits because the council is all rules lawyering instead of trusting her and taking up for her, and I'm pretty sure Mace voted to kick her out in the initial rules lawyering, so it's an even worse idea to further antagonize him. That was a straight-up troll move by Palpatine reading that Mace is a stupid moron that would make things worse because he's so arrogant, and it's doubly funny that Anakin ended up having to choose between stupid arrogant Mace and kind uncle Palpatine in the end. Also, TCW stuck some sneaky characterization in there that roves Filoni "gets" the respect-droids-as-people thing, as Mace thinks droids are just dumb tools and doesn't trust them past that (and his astromech ends up dying), while Anakin sees R2 as his friend and trusts him implicitly in contrast (and R2 ends up saving them both).
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Jan 8, 2020 21:34
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"Han later transported a scavenger who taught him some new fixes despite never having owned or maintained a starship before" Nice self-contradiction there - the fandom continues to surprise me
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Jan 8, 2020 21:35
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Darko posted:Ignoring Force visions is basically the Jedi's downfall. "For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the old republic (but only when it was personally important to them and their religion)".
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Jan 8, 2020 21:35
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sassassin posted:That's what Anakin thought before he killed his wife. Knowing that Anakin had visions about his mother dying while he was dicking around on escort missions and didn't go until it was too late to save her, when Anakin tells Yoda he's having death visions about someone he cares about again, Yoda says: "Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed that is...Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose." It was kind uncle Palpatine actually LISTENING to his visions as opposed to stupid Yoda that caused Anakin to turn to him in desperation and do the Greek oracle tragedy thing.
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Jan 8, 2020 21:38
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sassassin posted:"For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the old republic (but only when it was personally important to them and their religion)". "Nothing bad is happening to us, so we don't care, we're good as long as we send people as escorts who can't interfere besides stopping themselves from being killed on political missions. Meanwhile, the galaxy is full of slavery and planets being taken over and stuff!"
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Jan 8, 2020 21:39
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Darko posted:"Nothing bad is happening to us, so we don't care, we're good as long as we send people as escorts who can't interfere besides stopping themselves from being killed on political missions. Meanwhile, the galaxy is full of slavery and planets being taken over and stuff!" There are no planets taken over in the prequels. The war allows Sheev to rise to grand emperor of the republic/new galactic empire. There is no point in the prequels where the Jedi aren't acting as enforcers for law and order in the Republic. Which terrible tie-in novel suggests they were passive observers until they smell Sith blood?
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Jan 8, 2020 21:46
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sassassin posted:There are no planets taken over in the prequels. The war allows Sheev to rise to grand emperor of the republic/new galactic empire. The Phantom Menace
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Jan 8, 2020 21:53
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