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Madkal posted:When did the line about protecting a world that fears and hates them pop up for X-Men? I thought them being an "other" had been around from the get go.  Prior to that, if they had a logline at all it was just "The Most Unusual Fighting Team of All Time!" (used in Uncanny #94, Claremont's first full issue). It's also worth noting that in the earliest X-Men books, the X-Men were basically Just Another Superhero Team; the second issue had Xavier collaborating with an army general (and the X-Men fighting alongside the US Army) to defeat the Vanisher after they'd successfully teamed up to stop Magneto in the first issue. There are also scenes of starstruck teenagers thronging Angel and Iceman the same way they did countless times around the Human Torch, Thor, Captain America, etc. Even the first appearance of the Sentinels (which is where "anti-mutant sentiment" first really comes up) has Bolivar Trask as an "eminent anthropologist" and "industrialist", not a government agent. Mutants are compared to "Commies", "a Master Race", and "them right-wingers" by obvious strawmen. Xavier rescues the X-Men from the Sentinels (who turn against Trask immediately) with the help of the NYPD, who have orders "straight from Washington" to protect the mutants and work with Xavier. Trask realizes quickly that the X-Men want to "protect all mankind" and sacrifices himself to blow up the Master Mold. The general public realizes that the X-Men/mutants have been scapegoated (which is a story used repeatedly in early Fantastic Four and other Marvel comics of the time) and everyone goes back to liking them, except for some old fuddy-duddies. I guess you could squint hard enough to see this as some sort of civil rights metaphor, and there's a runner of Xavier trying to protect his/the X-Men's secret identity because of an "unfounded fear of mutants" but the stories themselves sure do have government agents, military officers, policemen, surgeons, etc. just treating the X-Men like your standard vigilantes/superheroes, complete with "well you want us to perform surgery on you but keep your mask on? Weird but okay!" type scenes. The Sentinels didn't come back until Arnold Drake had taken over the book, where the Sentinels were still a Trask family project taken over by Bolivar's son Larry, who was convinced that the X-Men had killed his dad. He was abetted by a government official -- Robert Chalmers, a federal judge who had a Blue Ribbon Commission determine that mutants were a menace -- and long story short, Larry was a mutant whose powers had been masked/neutralized by a groovy medallion his dad made him promise to always wear. The Sentinels go rogue again, get logic-bombed into trying to destroy the sun to stop all mutations, and Larry and Chalmers realize that mutants are okay after all. Claremont was the one (in the aforementioned X-Men #96) that had the US government building sentinels after a government scientist/Hellfire Club member Stephen Lang got assigned to a federal research program to create more mutants, but he hated mutants so he secretly started Project Armageddon to rebuild the Sentinels and kill all mutants. I don't think I realize just how quickly Claremont made the (very vague) subtext Text about mutants being Feared and Hated For Being Different, but it's definitely a Claremont innovation to make that the X-Men story.
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Dec 30, 2019 18:45
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Edge & Christian posted:The first time the sort of iconic formulation of the X-Men's logline appears is in an early Claremont issue (Uncanny X-Men #96): It might be worth noting that UXM #59, the one in which Cyclops convinces Chalmers to calm down and gets the sentinels to fly into the sun, credits Claremont with a writing assist, which at least suggests that per Cyclops' monologue he was at least beginning to percolate some thoughts on how to expand or complicate the mutant concept, even as a young intern. How Wonderful! fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Dec 30, 2019 |
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Dec 30, 2019 19:32
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Honestly I think in the original X-Men there's a bit of people like Lee and Kirby's experience as Jewish people in America- the old X-Men are all able to "pass" for "normal", but they still act like it's a secret they need to hide and not just for the normal superhero identity reasons.
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Dec 31, 2019 01:10
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Not related, but Beast handling vinyl records with his feet is one of my favorite visuals from 60’s Marvel. The issue of FF that introduces the Inhumans is a good example of this. You also get to see Johnny hit on Jean.
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Dec 31, 2019 04:24
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Open Marriage Night posted:Not related, but Beast handling vinyl records with his feet is one of my favorite visuals from 60’s Marvel. The issue of FF that introduces the Inhumans is a good example of this. You also get to see Johnny hit on Jean. They should be the same age, barring all of Jean's resurrections and now the cloning nonsense.
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Dec 31, 2019 08:22
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Open Marriage Night posted:Not related, but Beast handling vinyl records with his feet is one of my favorite visuals from 60’s Marvel. The issue of FF that introduces the Inhumans is a good example of this. You also get to see Johnny hit on Jean. I miss Ape Beast. What do people even call Beast now? Bald goblin?
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Dec 31, 2019 22:01
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E the Shaggy posted:I miss Ape Beast. What do people even call Beast now? Bald goblin? The worst
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Jan 1, 2020 11:06
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bobkatt013 posted:The worst 
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Jan 8, 2020 17:08
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Show me the panel where young time displaced Hank McCoy calls out the older one in New Avengers.
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Jan 9, 2020 07:54
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Skwirl posted:Show me the panel where young time displaced Hank McCoy calls out the older one in New Avengers. 
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Jan 9, 2020 15:22
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I wonder how The Character Assassination of Henry McCoy by The Coward Various Writers got started.
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Jan 9, 2020 15:57
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Wasn't it Bendis?
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Jan 9, 2020 15:58
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I feel like it started back when Cyclops was having his nervous breakdown around the Dark Reign arc, and Hank ended up in the unfortunate position of being the level-headed guy in a room full of non-level-headed people. From there, that got parlayed into him making a series of increasingly uncomfortable decisions until he was a punching bag.
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Jan 9, 2020 16:53
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I think it really started a little before that, when they did that whole Endangered Species runner where he went around and considered accepting help from various evil scientists (Doom, AIM, Sugar Man, Dark Beast, etc.) with the intention of reversing M-Day. I think that in itself called back to the 1970s Englehart horror-tinged "Hank tries experimenting on himself, turns himself into a furry werewolf" Beast solo serial, and after Endangered Species Beast's primary characteristic became "scientist who doesn't think about the consequences of his science and fucks everything up". I guess you could argue the creation of/continued use of Dark Beast contributed to it as well, because it set up the idea that under different circumstances he'd be an amoral mad scientist, and if there's one thing writers really like to keep hammering is that sort of "things will never end up bad like [Days of Future Past/Dark Knight Returns/Kingdom Come/Age of Apocalypse/etc.].... or will they????? Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Jan 9, 2020 |
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Jan 9, 2020 17:01
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Dark Beast and then the whole story where he OD's on Sublime are the beats I remember. I hate when they write him as being beyond the concerns of ethics and just into the science because that's lazy Sinister
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Jan 9, 2020 17:40
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Rhyno posted:Wasn't it Bendis? It was Morrison.
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Jan 9, 2020 22:08
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He was just a jerk. He didnt start being a reckless rear end in a top hat for quite some time. It was Fraction and Gillen i think.
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Jan 9, 2020 22:21
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I did like that story arch where he went to the villains for help. Not just because it showed how desperate it was for Hank to save his race, but it also made the villains a bit more interesting. They weren't just turning him down and attacking him, they had similar motivations as him in that moment. They weren't just 2D "I'LL GET YOU, X-MEN!" types, for just a while.
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Jan 9, 2020 22:37
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Lurdiak posted:It was Morrison. Morrison did make being a troll his secondary mutation. edit: 
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Jan 9, 2020 22:47
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That scene annoys me because it was like 80% of the way to a good idea that would have built off a lot of Claremont's approach to melodrama. Why should mutants hold to the same sexual taxonomies as humans? What does "queerness" look like when you might fall in love with somebody with a cloaca, or an external egg sac, who reproduces by shedding acorns or spontaneously splitting off like mitosis? Someone who can shape shift on a whim? Are "male" and "female," "straight" and "gay" concepts that will hold any meaning for a world with an entrenched mutant culture? I liked the concept of Beast going "whatever I am, I'm not recognizably 'straight' under any homo sapien rubric and why would I want to be." But the resolution of him just being snide for whatever reason was just dull.
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Jan 9, 2020 23:21
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Archyduchess posted:But the resolution of him just being snide for whatever reason was just dull.
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Jan 10, 2020 01:41
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Madkal posted:Morrison did make being a troll his secondary mutation. Beast used to be a happy jokester who is also a scientist before Morrison, he became a depressive put-upon sarcastic genius under that run, and all his following character development stems from that. Also cat beast looks like poo poo.
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Jan 10, 2020 03:09
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Even before then he'd spent a lot of time locked away and getting like a page or two so we could check in and see, yep, still working on the Legacy Virus. I remember the one issue of Avengers where he comes by to hang out with Simon felt like a breath of fresh air.
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Jan 10, 2020 03:14
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Archyduchess posted:That scene annoys me because it was like 80% of the way to a good idea that would have built off a lot of Claremont's approach to melodrama. Why should mutants hold to the same sexual taxonomies as humans? What does "queerness" look like when you might fall in love with somebody with a cloaca, or an external egg sac, who reproduces by shedding acorns or spontaneously splitting off like mitosis? Someone who can shape shift on a whim? Are "male" and "female," "straight" and "gay" concepts that will hold any meaning for a world with an entrenched mutant culture? It's inarguably an interesting idea but it should absolutely not be written by a straight cis person.
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Jan 10, 2020 05:51
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Prokhor Zakharov posted:It's inarguably an interesting idea but it should absolutely not be written by a straight cis person. For sure, although if I had to choose a straight cis man to write it at gunpoint Grant Morrison would have theoretically been on the short list. Obviously not at all a perfect track record and even his most interesting work on sexuality is informed more by brushing up against 80s/90s counterculture than anything else, but like, the fact that Rachel Pollack's absolutely singular Doom Patrol run felt like a pretty organic outgrowth of his is kind of astonishing. I think it's telling that one of my all-time favorite explorations of how romance and desire would look in a world with mutants-- Leah Williams' X-Tremists-- is also one of the painfully few x-titles written by a queer woman.
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Jan 10, 2020 06:44
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I was wondering what horrible stuff was going on that there was enough of a bump in the post count but its just nerds
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Jan 10, 2020 07:50
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 It's fascinating to watch Liefeld, whose shtick has been 'oh, he's such a nice guy' continue to whiz goodwill down his leg in a matter of months. While I'm sure Rob would walk it back that he didn't mean <specific writer here>, he throws so many amazing things under the bus. And it's coming from a guy whose go-to plot is 'from the future.'
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Jan 10, 2020 14:00
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As someone who really only got into reading comics like 6 years ago and has no real nostalgia for any era, I feel like his point is the 100% opposite of reality. Like I appreciate Claremont’s, Kirby’s, etc work, but there is sooooo much dialog. I can binge through an entire modern series and feel like I read a short story. Reading like 3 X-men comics from the 80’s or 90’s makes me feel like I just read an entire Lord of the rings trilogy worth of dialog. Totbot fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Jan 10, 2020 |
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Jan 10, 2020 14:23
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Dawgstar posted:
His nostalgia is for a certain era, and like many people he can’t see past his own likes.
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Jan 10, 2020 14:37
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cant believe he is nostalgic for a time when people actually thought he was good
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Jan 10, 2020 16:05
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Hot take about creativity from a guy who's entire career is built on ripping people off.
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Jan 10, 2020 16:24
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I would be curious to know what contemporary stuff he's reading. I see this so much-- people who age out of the era where their own work was the most lauded, or just the era where a given medium gave them the most comfort and excitement have less and less time to explore new stuff and get less of that frisson of wonder from it. I think the gravitational pull towards gradually just becoming out of touch is inevitable and to some extent healthy-- the old heads need to get out of the way eventually so new creators can come in-- but I think when you don't interrogate that pull in yourself is when you become a tedious old crank.
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Jan 10, 2020 16:41
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Archyduchess posted:I would be curious to know what contemporary stuff he's reading. I see this so much-- people who age out of the era where their own work was the most lauded, or just the era where a given medium gave them the most comfort and excitement have less and less time to explore new stuff and get less of that frisson of wonder from it. I think the gravitational pull towards gradually just becoming out of touch is inevitable and to some extent healthy-- the old heads need to get out of the way eventually so new creators can come in-- but I think when you don't interrogate that pull in yourself is when you become a tedious old crank. I don't think Rob deserves the amount of thought or consideration people are going to give him over this tweet. Old man yelling at
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Jan 10, 2020 16:45
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Rhyno posted:Old man yelling at This is absolutely true, but it's the way he's going on like somebody suddenly flipped a switch is what fascinates me.
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Jan 10, 2020 17:03
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Strangely, he seems to have gotten cranky after Marvel and DC stopped giving him work. The industry is finally leaving him behind, and he can’t handle it. Hopefully he was smart with his money.
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Jan 10, 2020 17:15
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Open Marriage Night posted:Strangely, he seems to have gotten cranky after Marvel and DC stopped giving him work. The industry is finally leaving him behind, and he can’t handle it. Hopefully he was smart with his money. He still gets deadpool and cable royalties and he claims to have sold countless tv and film options. I doubt he's poor but yeah, he should try not being a douchebag to the only industry he ever thrived in. He once had an interview in Wizard where he claimed to have attended the premiere of the Matrix with Will Smith and that they were both heartbroken that it was essentially the same story from THE MARK, a film project based on a comic that was never even released. http://legacy.aintitcool.com/node/4035 I think a CBR column later proved Rob's story about being best friends with Will Smith to be entirely fabricated.
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Jan 10, 2020 17:28
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I guess if you're making up a "my black friend..." story, aim high.
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Jan 10, 2020 18:12
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You would think Will Smith would have already known what The Matrix was about seeing as how he was offered the part of Neo long before Keanu.
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Jan 10, 2020 18:12
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Splint Chesthair posted:You would think Will Smith would have already known what The Matrix was about seeing as how he was offered the part of Neo long before Keanu. That was a major part of the column if I recall. I guess it wasn't widely known that Smith turned the role down? I seem to recall Rob having a rep for lying about everything. He was claiming a few years ago that he has his own film universe in the works wasn't he? And then we later found out he doesn't even own his characters anymore.
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Jan 10, 2020 18:19
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Just going on the whole Agent America thing, Rob understands IP law about as well as he understands podiatry.
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Jan 10, 2020 18:32
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