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Hey, quick question. So I loved Prey and SS2 is my favorite game of all time (with Prey a close second now!). I was wondering which of the following are considered similar and best to the above? Dishonored 1 Dishonored 2 And of the Metro games, what's largely regarded as the best one? edit: I know taste is subjective and whatnot. I seem to recall either in this thread or the early FPS one that Dishonored 1 is preferred over 2, but with the Metro games and all of the various versions floating around, I'm a little more lost. Thanks, ya'll!
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Jan 13, 2020 17:53
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I liked Dishonored 2 more than 1, but they're both relatively short so there's no harm starting with 1. The DLC for 1 is especially good (I haven't played 2's DLC but I've heard similar things). Last Light was the sweet spot for Metro for me, but those games are very much shooter games with survival elements. If you like more explor-y (small, Stalker-sized hub areas, not like Oblivion or something) shooters, Exodus is better though.
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Jan 13, 2020 17:57
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Floodixor posted:And of the Metro games, what's largely regarded as the best one? Both Last Light and Exodus are excellent but “best” depends on the kind of game you like. If you want a tightly designed linear FPS that is the closest thing to Half Life 3 you’re going to get without VR then Last Light is the best. If you want a mostly open world game with places of interest to find supplies interspersed with linear missions to progress the story, a light crafting system, and a ton (probably too much) character building between open world zones, then Exodus is the best. The first game is relatively unrefined by this point, even compared to Last Light, but is still worth playing if you can.
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Jan 13, 2020 18:06
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Rad, thank you. I also noticed Dishonored is by Arkane Studios and they can't do wrong in my eyes after Prey. I'll give it a shot here. Anyone else who has suggestions, as well, please let me know!
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Jan 13, 2020 18:06
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I haven't gotten around to D2 yet but D1 is really excellent and is in no way outdated or anything. You should know that it's not nearly as open as SS/Prey but you do still have a lot of options for approaching every situation. Mooncrashchat: I'm having trouble telling what's persistent between runs. My understanding is that the world state stays the same until I reset the sim, so the idea is that I'm supposed to go through with one character and open doors and leave items and such for the next character, but I feel like there are some things that seem to stay between resets. For example, I've never had to open the first Typhon gate out of the Crater again because it no longer has power, and I'm not sure what did that or why it is stuck that way now. Not that I'm complaining, I'm just confused. Do I remember passwords between resets? i.e. now that I've unlocked Riley, do I have the password to her computer for everyone all the time?
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Jan 13, 2020 18:12
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Serephina posted:Having such an open-world available really ruins the pacing of the game, not to mention the power progression of the player. You can lug over and sell random guns to vendors! This is bad! So by the time most of the player base gets off their arse and does the first mission, they've probably got 50% of the availablexp in the entire game, and a several fully kitted out guns. Oops. Compare this to MD, which has the retroactively-funny moment where after yelling at the player for 15 minutes to show up, hostages die (oops). It's good world-building in a different way. What's funny is that avoiding that first mission for like a week, the guy is still all "hey come in to work, you're late and this is a real pressing issue mister!!" I seriously went into every space, unlocked everything in sight, stole everything not glued to the geometry. Their pressing deadlines are happy to wait on the PC. I'm pretty sure it would've been the same exchange if I had ran straight there, maybe -1 conversation where he's like "hurry up maybe." Worst part is, you can very easily cut yourself out of a huge chunk of gameplay and an entire area of the map by exploring early and with no warning of consequence. It's also weird if you use your TV to call someone, you've got no real reason to chat initially but later on they actually need you to talk to him and it feels out of order because you've already breached some of the conversation. OzFactor posted:I haven't gotten around to D2 yet but D1 is really excellent and is in no way outdated or anything. You should know that it's not nearly as open as SS/Prey but you do still have a lot of options for approaching every situation. I think that first gate is just part of the initial tutorial first run. AFAIK it never comes back on, and whether there are just mimics, phantoms, or good items in that starting area just becomes random per reset. AFAIK the other permanent changes that are to come are more like difficulty modifier to keep it from getting too easy and stale, and those are explicitly mentioned as you progress. Passwords aren't remembered and I don't think even Riley by default know's the password for Riley's stuff, it's random. Khanstant fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Jan 13, 2020 |
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Jan 13, 2020 18:13
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That reminds me of the Mass Effect games with "high priority missions" which every player immediately and correctly read as "plot mission, put this on hold until you finish your side quests"
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Jan 13, 2020 18:15
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ToxicFrog posted:I wonder which is faster: bridge to arboretum airlock, EVA to shuttle bay, then take the gravshafts up to the shuttle, or bridge to elevator via arboretum and enter the bay via the lobby? Can't use the airlocks at that point in the game.
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Jan 13, 2020 19:00
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Oh right.  Floodixor posted:Hey, quick question. So I loved Prey and SS2 is my favorite game of all time (with Prey a close second now!). Dishonoured 1/2 are basically the spiritual sequels to Thief in the same way Prey and Arx Fatalis are successors to SS2 and Ultima Underworld, respectively. IMO both are absolutely worth playing, especially if you enjoyed Prey, although D2 has a bit of a twist in that there's two playable characters and each one encourages a different playstyle, so if you pick one and then try to go against type it can be a bit of a slog. I think I liked Dishonoured 1 more overall, but the best levels in D2 are better than anything in D1, which is actually pretty similar to my feelings on Thief 1 vs 2. As far as Metro goes, I only played the first two games (and DNFd the second), but they're much more straight up FPSes.
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Jan 13, 2020 19:11
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Metro 2033 and Last Light (both redux versions) are linear FPS games with some survival and Exodus adds open world zones but it still feels "linear" in the sense that the game progress from a corridor zone to a wider room since you will always go from one to another to progress without backtracking like in Prey. 2033 and LL are both exelent and short enough to play them in a weekend and Exodus is an attempt to be more like STALKER, yet more focused.
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Jan 13, 2020 19:21
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If I have a criticism of dishonoured it's that the game encourages you not to kill people but also a bunch of the content is centered around killing people. Which is a problem with a lot of games, Deus Ex being another notable example. It's something I think Prey does much better by having essentially the same choice, but only for specific enemies and giving you alternative solutions to getting past them.
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Jan 13, 2020 19:33
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OwlFancier posted:If I have a criticism of dishonoured it's that the game encourages you not to kill people but also a bunch of the content is centered around killing people. I bought Prey for my buddy, just because it's an amazing game, not that he is predisposed at all to the genre. He played a bit by himself, then forgot what he was doing or going and why. We were hanging out and I got him to play and it was interesting watching someone with suc ha different approach to the game. His instincts never involved sneaking or avoiding fights, he saw them all as things to be shot down.
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Jan 13, 2020 19:41
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I mean yeah I totally do that with typhon because, obviously, I want their delicious brain juice. But running into the odd section with humans is a nice change of pace.
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Jan 13, 2020 19:46
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OwlFancier posted:If I have a criticism of dishonoured it's that the game encourages you not to kill people but also a bunch of the content is centered around killing people. DXHR screwed the pooch on this, but DX1 handled it pretty well -- you get XP for exploring and completing mission objectives, not for disabling individual enemies. That said, yeah, in Dishonoured low-chaos is a lot more obviously the "good ending" but at the same time some of your tools are only useful for lethal play. That said, I still enjoyed it a great deal, and it gives you some leeway in how much carnage you can cause, unlike expert play in Thief -- I had a lot of fun playing it nonlethal/ghost but falling back to running and gunning when things went wrong rather than just quickloading.
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Jan 13, 2020 20:38
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Khanstant posted:Naw, this is bad advice. I think you should play how feels natural to you and not sweat it. The "gimmicks" you mentioned aren't gimmicks. "No neuromods" is a gimmick that should be reserved, but choosing to not use the alien injections is really obviously telegraphed by the game as a Thing and a personal Choice you're making. Being the perfect goody two shoes is also natural behaviour for a lot of players and it's not exactly some extreme requirement in this game. You would kind of need to go out of your way to be evil in the game. I'm imaging your first run as you just running through gunning everything down rambo style and injesting any and everything in your path lol. There's a difference between going out of the way to be evil, and compulsively reloading since a telepath thrall blew itself up. "Most empathetic ending" is totally a natural result, while "no humans died" isn't. I feel a lot of these games are best left to be explored by the player, since there's joy in that and the systems have no newbie traps or 'gotchas'. Walkthroughs and 'before I play' guides tend to overemphasize what the writer feels is optimal play in a single player game, which is deplorable. Like, could you imagine giving advice to a guy asking for help for the first Deus Ex game? How some augs and skills are OP while others worthless? Who cares! Game's not built to be a challenge to complete, just go have fun and form your own opinions about the swimming skill. Back to the point, about a hundred pages back or so people where asking for advice on stuff with the disclaimer "I'm also doing a XXX achievement run for my first playthough, and I'm having trouble with my lack of solutions, please help!". Like, duh. Just play the game and leave the cheevos for later!
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Jan 14, 2020 01:37
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Floodixor posted:Rad, thank you. I also noticed Dishonored is by Arkane Studios and they can't do wrong in my eyes after Prey. I'll give it a shot here. Anyone else who has suggestions, as well, please let me know! Dishonored is a great series, just make sure you don't miss out on the DLC. You'll want to play Dishonored, Knife of Dunwall, Brigmore Witches, Dishonored 2 and Death of the Outsider. Don't sweat the Chaos system. In many ways, I find high chaos to be a more natural and satisfying conclusion to the whole 'Count of Monte Cristo' setup of the first game. Also, Arkane did some minor work on Bioshock 2; opinions on that game are deservedly mixed, but it has the best gameplay of the entire Bioshock series, and the Minerva's Den DLC distills all the best parts into a memorable self-contained little story. In fact, if you're coming from Prey and want a similar experience, you could get Bioshock 2 just for Minerva's Den. Play the main game afterwards if you like. Don't bother with Bioshock Infinite. Hannibal Rex fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Jan 14, 2020 |
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Jan 14, 2020 02:17
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ToxicFrog posted:DXHR screwed the pooch on this, but DX1 handled it pretty well -- you get XP for exploring and completing mission objectives, not for disabling individual enemies. I really like DX1 but even then, if you actually go non lethal then you spend the entire game prodding and tranq darting people. You don't get to use any of the other guns. Whereas Prey, because its good/bad ending is entirely separate from whether you kill typhons, encourages you to use every weapon and tool to achieve goals, and many of them overlap in functionality so you might recycler your way through a heavy barricade, or nerf gun your way into a security station because you don't have the powers required. This also expands into the combat, with most of the powers having multiple uses, as well as the weapons. Gloo is combat useful, as well as an exploration tool, the stun gun is your non lethal option as well as a robot zapper and a stun gun etc. It's much better put together than most games as far as using all its components goes. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Jan 14, 2020 |
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Jan 14, 2020 02:35
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The first Metro is alright with the redux updates, too. By no means unplayable.
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Jan 14, 2020 02:41
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Why on earth would you go nonlethal for the entire game? Other than Paul's insistence that UNATCO act more like police than soldiers [man... that's aged], the game clearly expects players to use lethal options frequently, with it's morality left up to players.
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Jan 14, 2020 02:42
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Stick with the prod. Prod with the prod. Just in case though, we're police.
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Jan 14, 2020 02:59
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repiv posted:Stick with the prod. Prod with the prod. Just in case though, we're police.
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Jan 14, 2020 03:03
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I mean sure there's nothing physically stopping you from doing a mixed playthrough with DX but the game does not, I think, actually encourage it. It specifically discourages you from doing it quite early on. The main reason to do it is really out of boredom, which I think is strictly worse than how Prey does it, and communicates it to the player.
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Jan 14, 2020 03:11
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That’s a spicy take
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Jan 14, 2020 04:25
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The appropriate way to play Deus Ex is to be a psychotic nano-augmented chaos god who literally cannot stop committing crimes. Jesus Christ, Denton.
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Jan 14, 2020 04:36
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OwlFancier posted:If I have a criticism of dishonoured it's that the game encourages you not to kill people but also a bunch of the content is centered around killing people. like you said, prey mostly sidesteps this issue by not attaching a (pseudo)moral component to combat (another reason why i prefer immsims w/o a lot of people).
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Jan 14, 2020 04:37
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OwlFancier posted:I mean sure there's nothing physically stopping you from doing a mixed playthrough with DX but the game does not, I think, actually encourage it. It specifically discourages you from doing it quite early on. The main reason to do it is really out of boredom, which I think is strictly worse than how Prey does it, and communicates it to the player. DX1 incentivizes killing pretty heavily with a wide variety of lethal weapons and no consequences for killing post UNATCO. You're even required to kill Anna at some point to progress the story (glitches aside). Incentives for fully non lethal runs are entirely a community invention. Non-lethal is the best choice for the first couple missions because your guns and skills suck anyway, then you get the real firepower and get cut loose to do whatever you want.
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Jan 14, 2020 05:03
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a non-lethal takedown is always the most silent takedown
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Jan 14, 2020 05:51
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Just want to really stress that the best levels in Dishonored 2 really are absolutely loving incredible and make me rank 2 over 1 even though 1 is clearly a better game overall. Clockwork Mansion and Crack in the Slab are just sensational.
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Jan 14, 2020 06:04
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Both D2 and Prey are absolute marvels of technical / level design and both landed pretty quietly. With them and Hitman’s troubles and the DX franchise imploding it’s been a rough few years for immersive sim and sim-adjacent games
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Jan 14, 2020 07:01
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Jerusalem posted:Just want to really stress that the best levels in Dishonored 2 really are absolutely loving incredible and make me rank 2 over 1 even though 1 is clearly a better game overall. Clockwork Mansion and Crack in the Slab are just sensational. Yeah, when I talk about liking Dh1 more but Dh2 having the best individual levels, those are what I'm thinking of. OwlFancier posted:I really like DX1 but even then, if you actually go non lethal then you spend the entire game prodding and tranq darting people. You don't get to use any of the other guns. This is entirely orthogonal to my point, though, which is that DX1 does not mechanically push you towards or away from nonlethal play, because you get the same rewards either way; and it doesn't really push you narratively, either, because the noticeable branch points are largely unaffected by how bloodthirsty you are. The contrast here is to DXHR (which gives you dramatically more XP for playing nonlethal, which is also much faster and quieter than lethal play) and Prey (where the plot branches are significantly affected by how much (human) blood you shed). ToxicFrog fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Jan 14, 2020 |
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Jan 14, 2020 13:05
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Angry Diplomat posted:The appropriate way to play Deus Ex is to be a psychotic nano-augmented chaos god who literally cannot stop committing crimes. Jesus Christ, Denton. Stealth in Deus Ex was impossible for me but Not an issue in Dishonored or Prey because you got the mobility and tools for it. I find easier in DX to just dart everyone down or straight up killing but then I'm comparing games more than 10 years appart from each other. For some reason I sucked at stealth in DX:HR too so I ended knocking down and killing a tad more.
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Jan 14, 2020 14:47
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Dang this talk is all right up my alley right now. Yesterday when I was asking about Dishonored/Metro/etc, I had just finished Deus Ex: HR and was looking to keep on truckin'. I took this thread's advice and got Dishonored 1 (with, as was suggested, the DLC). At the start in the prison, I was doing non-lethal takedowns the whole way. However, when I first got to my first mission proper, I started out with a few non-lethals before really just going for lethal (plus Ghost, or at least as stealth as I could be) and now when I think of trying to tranq and choke my way through the levels, it sounds just totally arduous. I'm GLAD I'M KILLING. I'M A HORRIBLE MAN who also dumped points right away into blink 1 and 2 because that is, without a doubt, my favorite control dynamic with this game so far for sure. I really like the art style. My only thing is I'm still having a hard time getting into the steam punk-like vibe of the environments and such. It looks great but it's never really been my thing. I was wondering, though, if my recent play through of DX:HR was coloring it. One thing that definitely was, though, was that I had started a NG+ right after I beat DX and eventually ended up in the police station, wherein I saved the game and then murdered absolutely everyone in the station except pedestrians and perps who were booked. In these games, I ALWAYS try to play stealth, non-lethal, and "good" but once I deviated from that, heh, I dunno, it made then subsequently completing the DX quest for footage by killing those 2 guys by the basketball court which led into me killing the whole gang over the entire map and becoming an aug'd-out cloaked killing machine that it might have made the shift to Dishonored a little jarring for me. Dishonored is obviously well-made, though, and it's clear a lot of talent and care went into it, and I'll gladly keep at it. It's still a really good suggestion and I've found it hard to go wrong by the lovely posters in this thread, which is about Prey, possibly one of the best games ever made.
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Jan 14, 2020 16:00
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Is it worth updating the op for this thread? Wondering if I should put some mention of mooncrash in. But I have not played that yet(!).
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Jan 14, 2020 16:02
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ToxicFrog posted:This is entirely orthogonal to my point, though, which is that DX1 does not mechanically push you towards or away from nonlethal play, because you get the same rewards either way; and it doesn't really push you narratively, either, because the noticeable branch points are largely unaffected by how bloodthirsty you are. That is true yes, HR does have some extremely weird mechanical incentives which I think amount to "sneak through an area perfectly, then go back and stun everyone just to show you can" E: Also when did people start calling this sort of game "immersive sim" and why? I've always just called them FPSRPGs. What makes something an "immersive sim"? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Jan 14, 2020 |
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Jan 14, 2020 17:30
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do "all the guns in HR suck rear end" count as "mechanical incentives"
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Jan 14, 2020 17:31
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In DH2 you need absurdly little time sliding before being able to do the takedown (lethal and non lethal?) from the front. So once you get the timing down you can run slide takedown your way through a lot of levels which leads to some hilarious (non sneaky) battles.
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Jan 14, 2020 18:15
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OwlFancier posted:E: Also when did people start calling this sort of game "immersive sim" and why? I've always just called them FPSRPGs. Warren Spector coined it. Since he also effectively invented the genre I guess he has a right to give it it's name.
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Jan 14, 2020 18:51
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i called them 451-likes for a while, but yeah that's probably a better name for them
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Jan 14, 2020 18:53
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SCheeseman posted:Warren Spector coined it. Since he also effectively invented the genre I guess he has a right to give it it's name. I'm not complaining I've just not heard it before this thread. Is it specifically stuff like prey/system shock/deus ex? Or would it include perhaps things like Stalker?
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Jan 14, 2020 20:16
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OwlFancier posted:I'm not complaining I've just not heard it before this thread. Is it specifically stuff like prey/system shock/deus ex? Or would it include perhaps things like Stalker? The big thing about Immersive Sim vs FPSRPG is the way you interact with the game world. Games like Prey/Deus Ex/Dishonored put you in a really detailed world with a variety of tools and gives you a goal, and how you accomplish that goal is up to you to figure out. STALKER has RPG elements but most of your interactions with the world are just shooting things or dialogue trees.
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Jan 14, 2020 20:20
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