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i know i mentioned teaching a religion class in this thread a couple times, and people were stoked for me, so i figured i should post my update about my class here. i'm linking a thread where i gave a full account, mostly cause i don't want to re-write it because i'm worried it'll give me another anxiety attack and i just quieted down the last one https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3903931 to summarize; a student was being disruptive, i told him to stop, he refused, i told him to leave, he refused, i tried to move his stuff outside (dumb, dumb, dumb move) and he knocked it out of my hand, got up in my face, started posturing and saying stuff, and i thought he was gonna hit me. i was calm, he backed down, and then the rest of the day happened anyway i'm having anxiety attacks now about it, and since i already wasn't enjoying teaching and now i'm having panic attacks when i do work for my class i'm thinking i'm not cut out for this. i figure if i had a real passion for it, beyond getting a paycheck, i'd be able to come back from this, but i don't, so i can't. anyway figured you might like to know. feel free to update the religion thread if you think anyone in it i haven't messaged might care. basically i'm finishing the semester but not continuing on, in spite of the support of my department heads and (potentially) the community college administration. i don't want to be in a position like that again. ever. so much so that the idea of going to class on tuesday is giving me panic attacks, including the idea that i need to have a security officer there in case he comes by and is still upset... you just don't expect that as something you have to deal with when you're getting a loving masters of theological studies
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Nov 17, 2019 08:29
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 That sounds like a freakin terrible day.
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Nov 17, 2019 09:56
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So sorry to hear that. Teaching college students is tough enough on its own. That's just a horrible situation to be in.
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Nov 18, 2019 20:11
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Can someone please comment on the role (if any) of “faith” in Buddhist thought or teaching? How is the concept of faith applied? I remember the guy from Audio Dharma speaking on the concept and it was interesting, and I’m curious on some of your perspectives.
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Jan 6, 2020 18:35
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Chinook posted:Can someone please comment on the role (if any) of “faith” in Buddhist thought or teaching? My teacher has talked about this a couple of times and (in Zen Buddhism, specifically) it's about having faith in your practice rather than faith in some entity outside of yourself. It's faith that the Buddha was neither a) lying nor b) mistaken. If you can trust that he was not lying or mistaken, then that's all the faith required to continue the practice. This is specifically from a Zen perspective, though, and I'm sure other schools/sects will have other views.
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Jan 6, 2020 22:56
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Chinook posted:Can someone please comment on the role (if any) of “faith” in Buddhist thought or teaching? The Buddha himself said that you shouldn't just take things on faith. I forget the exact quote but the short of it is don't believe something just because it's believed by a lot of people, don't believe something just because a priest said it, don't believe something just because there are rumors, and don't believe something just because the Buddha said it. Make sure you go over it yourself so you can be certain what is true and what is not. One should listen to those that are farther along the path but a fact of reality is that you can misinterpret what they say, they might make mistakes, and some of them will outright lie to you. Being an authority doesn't make somebody automatically right about everything and, being that we're all still here on Earth, nobody can be 100% right about everything. Buddhism is less a faith or a religion and more of a path. The Buddha himself didn't invent the fundamental truths that are core to Buddhism and was pretty explicit about that; he found them and decided to share. It's completely possible to find those same truths in a different way than he did.
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Jan 7, 2020 02:21
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HoboTech posted:My teacher has talked about this a couple of times and (in Zen Buddhism, specifically) it's about having faith in your practice rather than faith in some entity outside of yourself. It's faith that the Buddha was neither a) lying nor b) mistaken. If you can trust that he was not lying or mistaken, then that's all the faith required to continue the practice. This is similar to how Thich Nhat Hahn and the Plum Village Tradition (which is rooted in Vietnamese Zen) talk about 'faith', which they often synonymize with 'confidence.' And that refers to confidence in the practice and your practice (as they are not considered separate self-entities) and confidence in the three jewels. Notably, faith is not talked about in Plum Village as referring to a doggedness about the historicity of the stories passed down about the Buddha. Confidence in the practice grows with... practice. It is definitely meant to be an organic, lived experience. Good teachers and practice puts you on the path to greater confidence/faith.
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Jan 7, 2020 03:48
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I started meditating again after a five year absence, mainly due to sleep issues. Like, I wake up too early. So I figured I might as well just meditate. During one of my meditations in the early morning hours I experienced such a trip that I'm almost afraid to go deeper into meditation again. I mean I'm still doing it, but in the back of my head I got a little bit of fear of entering a deep trip-like state again. Does anyone else have similar experiences, what do you do in that case?
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Jan 7, 2020 13:39
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shinjin that is all (that i know because i'm more into ethics than systematic buddhology)
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Jan 7, 2020 22:22
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mike12345 posted:I started meditating again after a five year absence, mainly due to sleep issues. Like, I wake up too early. So I figured I might as well just meditate. During one of my meditations in the early morning hours I experienced such a trip that I'm almost afraid to go deeper into meditation again. I mean I'm still doing it, but in the back of my head I got a little bit of fear of entering a deep trip-like state again. Does anyone else have similar experiences, what do you do in that case? Ive experienced what you're talking about but it never occurred to me to fear it. Why do you fear it? I have a suspicion that a lot of the more, uh, startling stuff is hovering between being asleep and being awake. I've had pretty intense sits during the day, but I only remember the real wild poo poo being early morning/late night for whatever reason.
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Jan 8, 2020 01:14
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i may need to get back into the fold i just need to... i need to get my IRL poo poo fixed first, think thats more important and maybe imperative for any real practice to work out
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Jan 8, 2020 01:23
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matti posted:i may need to get back into the fold
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Jan 8, 2020 01:38
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Sitting at your desk for 90 seconds or meditating for five minutes laying in bed is better than nothing at all. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good
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Jan 8, 2020 02:21
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mike12345 posted:I started meditating again after a five year absence, mainly due to sleep issues. Like, I wake up too early. So I figured I might as well just meditate. During one of my meditations in the early morning hours I experienced such a trip that I'm almost afraid to go deeper into meditation again. I mean I'm still doing it, but in the back of my head I got a little bit of fear of entering a deep trip-like state again. Does anyone else have similar experiences, what do you do in that case? Oof, nothing so exciting as that. Lately, I've just been noticing that I have worsening tinnitus. How long do you meditate in a session?
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Jan 8, 2020 04:32
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matti posted:i may need to get back into the fold Do what you can, when you can. Getting one thing right is better than getting no things right. Sometimes you can do ten things; sometimes you can barely manage one. That's fine.
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Jan 8, 2020 07:41
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Senju Kannon posted:shinjin I don't know if you're telling me to look into mantras, but that's not such a bad idea. Also I never considered mantras so that's a new cool venue for research. Achmed Jones posted:Ive experienced what you're talking about but it never occurred to me to fear it. Why do you fear it? I've had it before but yeah maybe it's tied to the fact sometimes I fall asleep during meditation. I fear the intensity/power. It's more like "I'm not prepared for this, and had no intention to be". Caufman posted:Oof, nothing so exciting as that. Lately, I've just been noticing that I have worsening tinnitus. How long do you meditate in a session? 20 - 30 minutes, but sometimes I fall asleep so it really varies. And then I wake up and start meditating again.
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Jan 9, 2020 11:16
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I would also try Sōto zazen with eyes open and facing a wall. Harder to slip off in 20-30 minute sessions and less intense in my experience.
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Jan 10, 2020 12:35
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Hi, I'm interested in Buddhism. Is there any good reference book for a historical overview of Buddhist tradition? I always find that kind of thing helps me contextualize myself to understand what I'm reading afterwards. I guess after that would be Mindfulness in Plain English? A big platform into meditation and now Buddhism was discovering the book The Mind Illuminated. Has anyone heard of this book (I think it's fairly well known on the Internet) and if so do you have an opinion on it? I found it fascinating and an excellent introduction.
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Jan 15, 2020 02:08
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Tosk posted:Hi, I'm interested in Buddhism. Is there any good reference book for a historical overview of Buddhist tradition? I always find that kind of thing helps me contextualize myself to understand what I'm reading afterwards. I guess after that would be Mindfulness in Plain English?
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Jan 15, 2020 02:13
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Tosk posted:Hi, I'm interested in Buddhism. Is there any good reference book for a historical overview of Buddhist tradition? I always find that kind of thing helps me contextualize myself to understand what I'm reading afterwards. I guess after that would be Mindfulness in Plain English? “Buddhist Thought” is an excellent introduction from a more scholarly perspective. And he follows it up with another excellent book “Mahayana Buddhism A Doctrinal Foundation. “Foundations of Buddhist Thought” is more accessible and geared towards someone wanting to practice.
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Jan 15, 2020 02:47
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Hey y'all, I've returned from Japan. Here's a trip report and a bunch of  about practice. Prepare yourselves for a wall of text.It's really interesting spending time in Japan as a foreigner practicing Zen Buddhism. Just as a lived religion, I felt that I could see its influence everywhere. Which makes sense, as it's been a huge part of the culture and society for over a millennium. As compared to America, where Buddhism is so new, I could really see how the various practices and ways of thinking have worked their way unconsciously into the daily lives of folks there (in the same way that [Puritan] Christianity has in the US). It was a cool thing to notice. I went by the DT Suzuki museum while I was in Kanazawa, which was interesting for me because although he has had a large influence on Zen in the United States, I really don't know much about him at all. It was a pleasant atmosphere, and it started raining as I walked through, so I stopped for a while and just watched the raindrops fall against the shallow concrete pond in the back garden. It felt serendipitous; I think that kind of place is excellent in the rain, as it suggests that we stop for a while and just sit and watch. That evening, I also met a man who owns a small bar/restaurant in the city and is a serious Soto Zen practitioner. We spoke for a time about our own practices, and what led us to where we were, and about Zen in America and Japan. It was really interesting to get more perspective on Japanese Zen, from someone actively practicing it there. It's a lot like American Zen, but also at the same time different. He carves incredible wood sculptures of bodhisattvas and buddhas, some of which were on the second floor of his bar where he leads zazen at times. He gave me a piece of the camphor wood that he uses to carve them, which felt important somehow and now sits in my practice space at home. Eihei-ji itself was a totally unique experience. I took a bus out from Fukui to get there and had an interesting time settling in — it was a great chance to work on my fairly meager Japanese because the person admitting me for practice didn't speak any English. Anyway, it worked out and I just sat as all of the tourists slowly left, until it was just myself and five others who had arrived to stay the night and practice there. I was the only non-Japanese person there, which made me feel a bit guilty because my Japanese is very poor; thus, a monk needed to come guide me and translate things into English. Of course, the monks who helped me didn't seem to mind and apologized for poor English skills, which I in turn felt the need to apologize for my own Japanese skills. Eihei-ji is old school and serious, and the forms are a Very Big Deal, so it was interesting to learn them and see how they are practiced there. Honestly more than anything it showed me how crap my posture is most of the time — if nothing else the monks there have excellent postural discipline, be it walking, running, or sitting. Everything felt very much like a well-oiled machine, especially during the service which I'll return to in a moment. As for practice there, we lay practitioners stayed in a separate, fairly modern building intended for that purpose. There were 5 men, including me, and one woman, and we were separated into two large-ish dormitory rooms, the five men staying in one and the woman in the other. They were standard Japanese-style rooms, all tatami mats with hidden closet space containing our futons which we laid out to sleep on during the night. We did four relatively short (20 minute) periods of zazen the first day/evening, with a meal in the middle. We all chanted the Five Reflections verse in Japanese before eating, which I didn't realize is actually the source of the phrases ”いただきます/itadakimasu" and "ごちそうさま/gochisousama” that Japanese people say before and after meals which was a neat thing to discover. Zazen itself was done on elevated tatami mat benches with a wooden tabletop space running along the front end. To get onto the tatami mat, we would lean back over the wooden part (not touching it because monks use that space to eat), sitting onto the cushion and then pushing back onto the mat. Then we would pivot around to face the wall. It was a bit awkward to get used to at first, but came fairly easily after that. As an American, I have never dealt with the kyousaku (the stick used to strike the shoulder of people who doze off or request it be used) before, which was interesting. It's extremely loud when someone is struck by it, which is probably intentional. The only time someone was hit by it, though, was by request I think. Honestly, it kind of scared me, and I considered requesting that I be struck with it because I find that fear to be problematic for my practice. But in the end, I decided to just sit, and if I was struck with it, okay, if not, that would be okay too. I wasn't struck with it, in the end. In any case, tatami is actually surprisingly comfortable to sit on for zazen — I suppose we don't use it in the US because it's hard to source. Anyway, after the last evening period of zazen, we all went to the communal bathhouse to bathe, followed by lights out around 9pm. We woke up the following morning around 4:30am and the sole zazen period for the morning started at 4:50am. After that, we put on socks and outer layers and went to the Hatto (Dharma Hall), for the morning service. The service itself was extremely interesting, especially as an American Soto Zen practitioner. Our group filed in alongside a group of maybe 50 or so Japanese people who had come, I imagine, just to see the service. We sat kneeling on the tatami mats covering the floor for the duration. I was struck by just how orderly everything was — I was sitting close to a monk who was in a side passage and would strike a large bell regularly, in time with a quite complex array of different types of bells and other sounds, plus a han, somewhere. It sounded kind of like clockwork does, and in a way it is that. I realized also at this point that the deep, muffled echo of ringing I heard during the morning zazen assuming it was close by was actually the bell way off at the main gate, making it extremely loud indeed. The monks, of which there were probably around a hundred I guess, filed in in lockstop, and quite rapidly. Everything was really efficient and surprisingly quick. They passed out accordion-style booklets containing the chants to everyone, and the entire room of people chanted several different things each in sequence, most of which I recognized from my own practice center (albeit in English). We chanted the Sandokai, for example. Something I also noticed was just how enormous their mokugyo is, which is amusing. I play ours on Wednesday mornings and it's hilariously small compared to the vast orb of a fish they have at Eihei-ji. But anyway it's not a contest, just something that I noticed. I should mention as well that the Hatto itself is cavernous — it's a huge space in there. One especially cool and profoundly impacting thing was that at the end, one of the monks — the kokyo, I suppose — got up and gave a short speech to everyone, during which he read the names of the visitors who stayed the night to practice. It was in Japanese so I was having trouble following it, but I recognized when he started reading our names and where we had each come from. I don't know exactly why, but there was something very profound about hearing my name being read aloud in the Dharma Hall at Eihei-ji in front of all of the monks. It reminded me that I was a part of this very large practice, and somehow solidified that bond in my mind. After the service concluded, we all filed out of the enormous room and one of the monks led me around to each of the main buildings of the temple, such as the butsuden, joyoden, and kitchen, and explained briefly what each was and what went on there. The sun was starting to rise as we went, and I could start to see the areas outside and around the temple more clearly as we walked. We stopped at the Sanmon ("Mountain Gate"), which is where monks have to stand for several hours in Winter when they arrive before they are let in, and I asked him what it was like. He said that he was extremely cold and I believed it. Finally, we went back to the dormitory room and ate breakfast, and then we were done. The other five people who stayed overnight disappeared right away, but I asked the monk at the entry lobby if I could walk around and he said of course. So, I spent about an hour walking around the temple and it was a profound experience. It was almost entirely vacant and quiet — the monks had all gone to the zendo to sit, and no new buses of tourists would arrive for at least another hour, so it was effectively just me and the temple buildings, aside from one or two monks who would sometimes scurry by on their way here or there. I happened to arrive at the joyoden (the "Founder's Hall," where Dogen's remains are kept) as a monk was preparing to offer incense before the altar, so I watched that for a time and bowed and moved on. I must say, the buildings and environment there are really very beautiful at that time of day, with the sun coming up over the mountains. It's quite serene. But, at the same time, I felt that Eihei-ji is ultimately just a place. It's wonderful that the practice is maintained there, and it's lovely to see and to participate in what is happening, but it's no more and no less than that, plus the ideas I create about it in my head. So, it was also okay to leave. So, that's my travel story. One last thing though, which has sort of troubled me about my practice since going there, is that I realized that in truth I'm not ready to be a monk. I don't know if I will be ready in this lifetime, even. Life as a monk is tough, y'all. It's kind of silly, but the thing that I found the hardest to deal with was simply how incredibly cold it was in the temple in the morning. Despite wearing wool socks and having a sweater on, I had a tough time focusing because my body was shaking and the desire to be warm again was tough to let go of. I accepted it as best as I could and sat determined to live out that coldness while I was in the Hatto and the halls, but ultimately I was very thankful to to be in a heated room again afterwards. It forced me to acknowledge that my dedication to practice is just not strong enough to voluntarily be that cold everyday, in addition to the other things that go with monastic life, which I find really dismaying because I'm not sure where that leaves me. As a result, I have been having to look really deeply since then at what my limitations are in this karmic body, and what I'm really capable of. Not that being a monk is some "end-game" perfect objective, but in a way I think I considered it to be the truest route of practice, ultimately. So instead, I'm honestly kind of lost in practice currently. To what extent do I try to cultivate practice that I feel incapable of or that I find exhausting, and to what extent do I leave myself in a life that I see as not true or helpful from the perspective of the Dharma? I should probably just sit in silence for ten years, as Uchiyama-roshi suggests, but it's quite hard to find the energy to do so at the moment. What keeps you all motivated to continue dedicated practice?
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Jan 15, 2020 03:02
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You are a very skilled travel writer.Keret posted:We stopped at the Sanmon ("Mountain Gate"), which is where monks have to stand for several hours in Winter when they arrive before they are let in, and I asked him what it was like. He said that he was extremely cold and I believed it. Can you tell me anything more about this practice?
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Jan 15, 2020 03:18
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Tosk posted:Hi, I'm interested in Buddhism. Is there any good reference book for a historical overview of Buddhist tradition? I always find that kind of thing helps me contextualize myself to understand what I'm reading afterwards. Seconding thirteen orphans recommendations I’ve had the first one assigned as a text in a uni history of Buddhism course. Another solid reference is A History of Indian Buddhism from Sakyamuni to early Mahayana by Hirakawa Akira http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/A%20History%20of%20Indian%20Buddhism_From%20Sakyamuni%20to%20Early%20Mahayana_Akira.pdf
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Jan 15, 2020 03:33
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Thirteen Orphans posted:You are a very skilled travel writer. Thanks, that's very kind of you to say so. As for standing at the gate, I don't really know much about the process aside from what I was told and what I learned from a video they showed about practice there, but basically what happens is: Monks who aspire to practice at Eihei-ji are given a specific day and time when they are all supposed to arrive, which is once per year in the wintertime. I think it's mid-to-late winter. In any case, they arrive at that time and all stand at the Sanmon, or Mountain Gate (Zen monasteries in Japan are thought of as mountains, thus the name, though it also happens to be on a mountain). They then remain standing there in the snow and wait to be admitted. After a few hours, the head monk comes out to the gate and asks them why they've come to Eihei-ji, at which point they all give their reasons for wanting to practice there. In response, the head monk essentially tells them that they are not ready to practice at Eihei-ji and leaves. They then continue to stand there in the cold for another couple of hours until finally the head monk returns and gives them permission to practice in the temple, at which point they become novice monks there. My assumption is that it's like the stories of Bodhidharma not acknowledging the monks who wanted to practice with him for some time while they sat outside, then finally letting them join him when they showed they were serious, but that's just my take on it. Interestingly, it seems that most monks only stay at Eihei-ji for 1-3 years, then go back to their family temple to inherit it from their father (as far as I know, in Japan most temples are passed down hereditarily from father to son, not sure when that practice started though).
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Jan 15, 2020 05:54
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Tosk posted:Hi, I'm interested in Buddhism. Is there any good reference book for a historical overview of Buddhist tradition? I always find that kind of thing helps me contextualize myself to understand what I'm reading afterwards. I guess after that would be Mindfulness in Plain English? Yeah I’ve got that book. It’s good but it requires a level of meditation I can’t give right now. It’s very helpful at showing how our minds really work. It’s note along the lines of what I want meditation to be for me, rather than buddhism as such. poo poo I’m interested in discovering the non-dual experience
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Jan 15, 2020 06:09
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What a beautiful account, Keret! Thank you for postin'. I had the opportunity to visit a Shingon temple (among other places) when I visited, but it was part of a generalized tour, and so I couldn't linger. How long was your stay?
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Jan 15, 2020 06:18
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Keret, I'm glad you decided to go and thanks for writing your experience up. Sounds like you had about as good of an experience all around as possible and on top of that came away with some good cud to ruminate upon. I hope to have a minute to respond in a little more length laterKeret posted:Thanks, that's very kind of you to say so. Afaik this is precisely the case, yes. Also has a long, practical history of serving to weed out some of the less committed at times that zen became particularly fashionable or trendy. quote:Interestingly, it seems that most monks only stay at Eihei-ji for 1-3 years, then go back to their family temple to inherit it from their father (as far as I know, in Japan most temples are passed down hereditarily from father to son, not sure when that practice started though). Yeah Zen writ large is quite emphatic about specifically codifying the return to society or 'the marketplace' as a stage along the path of zen practice and idk it always struck me as a useful reminder to stay aware of and not to neglect the rest of the world.
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Jan 15, 2020 11:24
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Keret posted:One last thing though, which has sort of troubled me about my practice since going there, is that I realized that in truth I'm not ready to be a monk. I don't know if I will be ready in this lifetime, even. Life as a monk is tough, y'all. I've been wondering about Buddhism as well as other monastic traditions with lay support, whether monks are artificial ideals. What I mean is, monks live in renunciation or extreme practice that embodies the ideals of the tradition, but to expect practitioners to aspire to monkhood is besides the point. The society that supports/enables monastic life shares in their practice, and by creating a small number of extreme practitioners it validates and enshrines the philosophical/spiritual/existential lessons of the tradition. I guess this is how I rationalize my own inability (or circumstantial reality) to follow a devout path by abandoning my life in society-at-large, but I'd be interested in your reflections on this idea.
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Jan 15, 2020 12:55
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I don't think it's very probable that a lay practitioner will reach enlightenment. I think it's really hard and things like "raising my son" and "going to work" make it very much harder than if all my efforts were focused on practice and the monastery. I can know all the Buddhist Facts that I want, but integrating them into my momentary consciousness during normal life takes a lot of hard work and meditation. I'm almost certainly not going to become an enlightened master even with a "rigorous" sitting practice of "every day, except 80% of the time when I skip it because I need to finish this $WORK_THING" I was lucky enough to hear the dharma in this life and to try to practice it. Maybe next time I'll be a monk or something and will be able to devote myself fully. In the meantime, my practice reduces suffering for myself and others so the fact that I'm not the ideal isn't a problem for me. What I'm saying is that the monk or nun is not an artificial ideal. It's just that it's not realistic for me, and I'm not going to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Just as someone can care about global poverty without being forced to forsake all luxury, someone can be Buddhist without aspiring to be a monk in this lifetime. I say all this in terms of lifetimes, which is kind of funny because I have doubts about the metaphysics of rebirth. But it gives me a vocabulary to express things that I think are fundamentally true, even if I have, uh, non-traditional views of the foundational metaphysics.
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Jan 15, 2020 16:40
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I've started listening to a Ram Dass audiobook, learned about him through his obituary. Anyone else familiar with his talks? I like it, it's simple but not stupid, good starting point for anyone curious about eastern philosophy.KiteAuraan posted:I would also try Sōto zazen with eyes open and facing a wall. Harder to slip off in 20-30 minute sessions and less intense in my experience. Yeah that's how I started, but I'm currently interested in straying from the rigid path and meditating in different positions/circumstances.
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Jan 15, 2020 16:48
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Thank you for your insightful response. When I say "artificial ideal" I don't mean to disparage. I'm not sure what the exact description I'm trying to express is, but perhaps I could try again: monastic lives cannot be for everyone, but they don't have to be. The very fact that a community is able to produce devout practitioners means that the efforts of everyone involved are validated and are participant in enlightenment.Achmed Jones posted:I say all this in terms of lifetimes, which is kind of funny because I have doubts about the metaphysics of rebirth. But it gives me a vocabulary to express things that I think are fundamentally true, even if I have, uh, non-traditional views of the foundational metaphysics. Before I respond to this please understand that I am at best adjacent to Buddhism and my terminology may not match with yours. If I'm really out to lunch with this I welcome you to say so. Reincarnation is the aspect of Buddhism that I find most difficult to accept, particularly in light of the no-self. The logic of the no-self suggests that "I" am a cohesive bundle of causal phenomena. I could say that I am matter in space and time that is in the form of a human, temporarily. To identify my human experience as separate from the Ultimate Self of Everything (if I may) would seem to be a key component, if not the root, of suffering. When this human form unravels, it disperses and is Incorporated into various forms, some human and some non-human. Let's say that my temporary form and resulting experience will never repeat: this combination of phenomena will never re-form in its entirety. In other words, no reincarnation of "me". Then, how am I to contend with the life of a householder knowing I can never reach enlightenment the way a monk does? I'm still working on this, but what I'm going towards is that their enlightenment and mine are fundamentally connected, here in this moment.
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Jan 15, 2020 17:46
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Rodney The Yam II posted:Reincarnation is the aspect of Buddhism that I find most difficult to accept, particularly in light of the no-self. The logic of the no-self suggests that "I" am a cohesive bundle of causal phenomena. I could say that I am matter in space and time that is in the form of a human, temporarily. To identify my human experience as separate from the Ultimate Self of Everything (if I may) would seem to be a key component, if not the root, of suffering. When this human form unravels, it disperses and is Incorporated into various forms, some human and some non-human. There isn't an immortal soul in the sense of some packet or object of spiritual matter that constitutes "Nessus," and which will exist for all time, even if it later becomes more people, and was many people prior to that. However, this is looking at things on the massively external level - there could very well be something which represents "Nessus" which is very durable, and given that many of the texts and teachings strongly suggest that this something-or-other is preserved in a sufficiently meaningful sense that (for instance) Shakyamuni can be said to have had previous lives in which he accumulated merit. So the dichotomy only exists if we assume that the only two possible states are "immortal soul as constructed in the West" and "total materialism, once you die and cannot be revived that's it." I can't speculate on the higher level orders or details of this mind-stream existence. However, even on my amateurish level I have found sufficient strength and truth in the dharma that I'm willing to take this theory as being under good report from a very trusted source. At worst it is a simplification meant to guide people like me.
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Jan 15, 2020 22:32
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Achmed, allow me to suggest the ''''highly regarded''''' practice of 'manis in the shower' At least my dog is accumulating merit. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Jan 16, 2020 |
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Jan 16, 2020 00:21
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mike12345 posted:I've started listening to a Ram Dass audiobook, learned about him through his obituary. Anyone else familiar with his talks? I like it, it's simple but not stupid, good starting point for anyone curious about eastern philosophy. That's the first I'm hearing that name, but that's nothing special because I don't read much. For me, it was Alan Watts (through the video game Everything) that first helped me understand Buddhist perspective. He was a good introductory teacher, but very soon I wanted to find teachers who were also practitioners instead of just being very entertaining and engaging. As for other postures of meditation, I enjoy different paces of walking meditation as well, and this is also easy to incorporate into daily life. There is also eating meditation, which is more challenging because of my habit to eat while doing something else. When I drive, I now try to drive mindfully, without radio or music, paying attention to my breathing as well as the road. Plum Village Tradition loves to encourage bringing mindful practices into different spheres of daily living. Achmed Jones posted:I don't think it's very probable that a lay practitioner will reach enlightenment. I think it's really hard and things like "raising my son" and "going to work" make it very much harder than if all my efforts were focused on practice and the monastery. In the Plum Village Tradition, they don't talk about enlightenment as especially unobtainable when you have the right volition, whether one is lay or monastic. Enlightenment is always talked about as enlightenment of something. In this case, if we are talking about attaining the insight of impermanence, non-self, and no-birth-and-no-death, this is doable, and many dharma-doors can take you there. What is harder than attaining this insight is practicing with it full-time, day-after-day, hour-after-hour. Like Alan Watts, it may be easier just to taste this insight and share it for laughs and some helpfulness but not to let it get in the way of a 'good time'. Plum Village monastics do not say that it is impossible for a lay person to be a full-time, living Buddha, but that it is generally harder than for a monastic, because precepts paradoxically make you ultimately more free, as those who live without any precepts are totally subject to their habits, attachments, and urges. At the same time, Plum Village monastics caution their friends against idealizing the monks and nuns and even their master, Thich Nhat Hahn. Idealization is also not the practice. They're upfront that living in any close community, even a monastery, is still a very human endeavor that brings out many human idiosyncrasies. In the documentary Walk With Me, you'll see monks and nuns meditating and chanting and doing many beautiful things, of course, but you'll also see them yawning during sitting meditation, expressing boredom and frustration with the routine of monastic life, and other glimpses of day-to-day humanness. Rodney The Yam II posted:Reincarnation is the aspect of Buddhism that I find most difficult to accept, particularly in light of the no-self. The logic of the no-self suggests that "I" am a cohesive bundle of causal phenomena. I could say that I am matter in space and time that is in the form of a human, temporarily. To identify my human experience as separate from the Ultimate Self of Everything (if I may) would seem to be a key component, if not the root, of suffering. When this human form unravels, it disperses and is Incorporated into various forms, some human and some non-human. I'm curious to know if this video which I shared in the Religion Thread would help you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pMYebbFUeo Here, Thich Nhat Hahn is responding to a question from a western practitioner who is confused about the different Buddhist views on hell and reincarnation. Thich Nhat Hahn's answer is one of the most challenging (and even controversial) things I've ever heard him say. My understanding of what he's saying is that reincarnation and retribution were already popular notions during Siddhartha's time. He used these notions skillfully to teach about non-self and no-birth-and-no-death, and since his time, Buddhist teachers have continued to use different forms of the teaching to help different kinds of people to live better. I'd say that for those of us who are western or western-educated (and that is likely most of us here), the teaching of reincarnation is often less helpful because it's not even the popular notion we were enculturated in from childhood. I also really like that in this video, Thich Nhat Hahn begins his response by saying, "We know by the form of the question that the one who asks already knows the answer." How often that is true!
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Jan 16, 2020 01:24
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Caufman posted:In the Plum Village Tradition, they don't talk about enlightenment as especially unobtainable when you have the right volition, whether one is lay or monastic. Enlightenment is always talked about as enlightenment of something. In this case, if we are talking about attaining the insight of impermanence, non-self, and no-birth-and-no-death, this is doable, and many dharma-doors can take you there. I suspect this is partly enlightenment and realization being used largely interchangeably. For practical purposes, aspiration towards realization is good and fairly hard to go too wrong with. Aspiration towards enlightenment however ends up being something of a three letter word and kind of a dangerous concept for people to strive too hard towards because there's so much cultural and personal baggage typically heaped upon the word. Personally I hate the word and think that a ton of people waste a crazy amount of time seeking that instead of doing the basic, important, but more boring 'be a good, dependable person, and work towards some charitable duty that benefits society' steps. That said, at a certain point, full, unbounded enlightenment definitely becomes a useful aspirational goal, or at least there must be some reason why nearly (probably all of them, tbh) every Buddhist tradition includes something about the pursuit of full enlightenment in their liturgy/full formal daily practice.
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Jan 16, 2020 04:01
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Nessus posted:What a beautiful account, Keret! Thank you for postin'. You're welcome! I am glad that you got something out of it. I was only at Eihei-ji overnight, from 3pm the first day until about 9am the following morning, so not a very long time either. It was long enough to get a small feeling of the cycle of the day there though, which was really interesting to be a part of. --- I find this discussion at the moment really interesting and relevant to me, so I'll try to add a few observations I've made in my own practice. I'm just some guy and no authority whatsoever on the Dharma, but maybe something I write can be of help to folks. I've tried twice now to write this reply, and ended up writing a thesis both times (the struggle is real, Paramemetic), but maybe this time I can wrangle it into something readable. Everything I mention is solely from my own life and practice, which is anyway the only thing I can comment on. So that caveat aside, there are two really fundamental and, to me, vital observations that have formed the ground of my current practice, and I see everything we're talking about through them. It's funny because, when I sit down and try to describe them, I just end up saying the same things that people have already said about them which I glossed over at first. But I have to try anyway. The most important point about both of these is that they are not in any way abstract or philosophical; they are totally concrete and observable in my daily life. The first observation, which I've been very seriously grappling with lately, is the fact that the Dharma as true reality is prior to and beyond my tiny ideas about the Dharma as true reality. Uchiyama-roshi shows this alternatively as "the vast blue sky does not obstruct the floating white clouds" or "the Self which is only the Self." This is tremendously difficult to describe in words, but it's incredibly important. I think that maybe this particular element is only really observable in the stillness of sitting, actually. But anyway, the implication of this is that everything I think about what the Dharma is or isn't is an added layer; it's extra. Actually, my ideas about what practice is, or what the Dharma is, have nothing whatsoever to do with the Dharma as lived reality. This was, and often is, very difficult to accept and work with, because intentionally or not I approached Buddhism with the attitude of trying to "figure it out" with my intellect. But — and I think this is crucial — thoughts about the Dharma are only ever thoughts about the Dharma. They can never reach it in the way that the floating clouds can't reach the infinite expanse of the sky, though they are a part of the scenery of the sky. As a result, when I think Buddhism is the words used to describe Buddhism, that's really a dangerous path to go down. The second observation I've made in my own life, which is really just a rephrasing or continuation of the first, is simply how utterly immediate, or perhaps how radically "now," reality is. I tend to think that a past exists, or that a future exists, but actually they don't, at least outside of what is here, right now. That's not to say that a present exists, at least one as related to past or future. That all sounds kind of facetious, but I'm dead serious on this point. This ties into the first point about ideas — we are all the time piling up this enormous stack of ideas, thousands and thousands of layers of them, without even realizing that we're doing it. Past and future are like this. What are they? Even if we think they exist absolutely, where do we find them outside of the current thoughts in the brain? Actually, all of it is right here, in this very moment. So, talking about practice in terms of lay and monastic, and about goals for practice and enlightenment and so on, in my own experience I have to see it through these. Something I am trying very hard to internalize right now is that, strictly speaking, there is no such thing as my practice. There's no such thing as other peoples' practice either. There's only Practice, or Life or whatever we want to call it, which is happening every moment whether I think it is or not. It's a simplification for me to try to cut off a little sliver of it and say that that is my practice, but actually that's a totally arbitrary decision I'm making. I wish I could present this is a clearer way, because it's the single most important element of practicing to me right now. Anyway, because of all of this, I have to realize the problem of practicing Buddhism with the idea that it will fix me, or that I can get anything out of it, most of all some enlightenment experience. Sawaki-roshi liked to say that "zazen is good for nothing." It's so true actually. That this tiny, arbitrarily outlined self can gain anything at all from the Dharma is beside the point. As I see it lately, the Dharma is practiced simply because it's true; it's nothing more than settling down into what is already happening with as honest of an attitude as we can possibly muster. I think the seriousness of our practice is a measure of how honest we are about living, really living in the world and also as the world. For me, honest living has a quality of paring down to just raw life as it is, and that seems to be exemplified in monastic life, at least in some cases. So I don't think monastic life is an artificial ideal, insofar as I think it really does aim towards this very raw, straightforward practice as life. But at the same time, even as a lay practitioner we can absolutely practice raw, natural life as well, it's just harder to navigate as many posters here have mentioned, because it's so easy to "look away" from the reality that is happening (even if ultimately it is happening whether we want it to or not). As far as enlightenment is concerned, I will admit that I don't know what that is actually. Lately, as I see it based mostly on what Uchiyama-roshi and others in the Soto Zen tradition have said, "enlightenment" is an active process that is literally the practice of Buddhism as life. For a long time I practiced thinking that I should "reach" enlightenment, but I think that that misses the point actually. Because of what I mentioned above, why should I think that this tiny conditioned self can ever become enlightened? Instead, I think the importance lies in realizing that this little self is arbitrary and instead, practice is a universal process that has very little to do with the desires and thoughts of this individual at this point in time. That's also why, when one person sits zazen for even a short time, all of reality is awake and practicing simultaneously. Actually, that's already happening, but enlightenment is waving the fan and realizing this as active practice. Finally, with regards to rebirth, I think that Caufman's video from Thich Nhat Hanh is a beautiful way of looking at it and I am thankful that it was linked. Rebirth has always been a thorn in my side, so to speak, in terms of being able to vibe with Buddhism. For a long time, I more or less just pretended that it didn't exist and focused on everything else. But, eventually I realized that without knowing it, what I had thought was rebirth was actually just a western ego-centric idea of reincarnation that I brought with me, masquerading as rebirth which is why it seemed so out of place in Buddhism. I don't think we can say that people are lying about rebirth to make people feel okay, though. In my experience, I think that it's more of a matter of perspective and phrasing. When we think about rebirth, we naturally assume we are talking about something which happens when this body and mind "die" at the end of our lives. But that's actually a totally arbitrary decision we're making. I don't think that moment, whatever it will be, is actually any different from what is happening right now. And in fact, who is it that is dying anyway? Or being reborn, for that matter. To me, rebirth is right now, every moment. It's already happening, at least from the provisional, conditioned view of things. Sorry y'all, that was really a lot of words. I hope some of that can be of some use to someone. Thank you all, as always, for your practice.
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Jan 16, 2020 23:12
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mike12345 posted:I started meditating again after a five year absence, mainly due to sleep issues. Like, I wake up too early. So I figured I might as well just meditate. During one of my meditations in the early morning hours I experienced such a trip that I'm almost afraid to go deeper into meditation again. I mean I'm still doing it, but in the back of my head I got a little bit of fear of entering a deep trip-like state again. Does anyone else have similar experiences, what do you do in that case? The experience of fear during meditation is in our experience. What we do in that case is allow the fear completely into our awareness and allow it to express in that moment. All fear is of death/annihilation. Meditation is the opportunity to drop all falseness/illusion/misunderstandings/attachments. When one identifies with something false, and in meditation that falseness is ready to be seen through, there can arise a feeling of fear due to the misidentification. The stronger the identification the stronger the feeling of fear/death/doom. A common misidentification is the belief that you are your thoughts/mind or you are your body. The seeing-through of those attachments may begin with fear. At a certain meditativeness we've also found such overwhelming bliss to also coincide with an arising of fear - because the feeling is one of being swept away, of letting the bliss completely destroy/overwrite/drown/clear/cleanse all our sense of self. However, again, surrendering/relaxing/letting-go/allowing into the meditation has never destroyed the sense of SELF, just the false imaginings that we falsely identified with. Or recite the Litany against Fear  I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. - Dune, Frank Herbert 
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Jan 17, 2020 18:52
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To paraphrase the Book of the SubGenius, "don't worry - the "Self" is very tough and will come back soon enough - so you MIGHT AS WELL BLAST THAT SUCKER DOWN!"
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Jan 17, 2020 22:39
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Keret posted:As far as enlightenment is concerned, I will admit that I don't know what that is actually. Lately, as I see it based mostly on what Uchiyama-roshi and others in the Soto Zen tradition have said, "enlightenment" is an active process that is literally the practice of Buddhism as life. For a long time I practiced thinking that I should "reach" enlightenment, but I think that that misses the point actually. Because of what I mentioned above, why should I think that this tiny conditioned self can ever become enlightened? Instead, I think the importance lies in realizing that this little self is arbitrary and instead, practice is a universal process that has very little to do with the desires and thoughts of this individual at this point in time. That's also why, when one person sits zazen for even a short time, all of reality is awake and practicing simultaneously. Actually, that's already happening, but enlightenment is waving the fan and realizing this as active practice. So much comes to mind reading this, but expressing it is so vexingly difficult. It's one of the reasons Uchiyama, who is so clear and direct, Dogen, who is so allusive and poetic, and Okumura, who manages to part the veils of language, culture and time, in some measure, when it comes to Dogen, are each so gratifying to read. This may sound a tad daunting, and counterintuitive in a tradition founded on a special transmission outside the scriptures, but I think you would enjoy, and have the capacty to glean a lot from, a course of reading along the following lines: (1) Shobogenzo (not Shasta Abbey, but pick a translation otherwise. I prefer Kaz's for debatable reasons that I won't bore you with); (2) some background scriptures / sources such as the Diamond, Vimalakirti, Lankavatara, Lotus and Heart Sutras, The Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way or something similar, something on Hua Yen, the Platform Sutra and The Teachings of Huang Po; (3) Eihei Koroku (Taigen's); and (4) secondary literature on Shobogenzo (mostly Okumura). e: Shobogenzo would be the place to start and to conclude. It's amazing, and I wouldn't wait before reading it, certainly not for so much other reading, but the other sources (if you haven't read them already) will broaden your perspective on both Shobogenzo and the Soto / Zen tradition. A few random excerpts, of which you're likely already well aware: From Fukanzazengi: "[P]ut aside the intellectual practice of investigating words and chasing phrases, and learn to take the backward step that turns the light and shines it inward. Body and mind of themselves will drop away, and your original face will manifest. If you want to attain suchness, practice suchness immediately. . . . The zazen I speak of is not meditation practice. It is simply the Dharma gate of joyful ease, the practice-realization of totally culminated enlightenment. It is the koan realized, traps and snares can never reach it." From Genjokoan: "Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water. . . . The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky." quote:Finally, with regards to rebirth, I think that Caufman's video from Thich Nhat Hanh is a beautiful way of looking at it and I am thankful that it was linked. Rebirth has always been a thorn in my side, so to speak, in terms of being able to vibe with Buddhism. For a long time, I more or less just pretended that it didn't exist and focused on everything else. But, eventually I realized that without knowing it, what I had thought was rebirth was actually just a western ego-centric idea of reincarnation that I brought with me, masquerading as rebirth which is why it seemed so out of place in Buddhism. I don't think we can say that people are lying about rebirth to make people feel okay, though. In my experience, I think that it's more of a matter of perspective and phrasing. When we think about rebirth, we naturally assume we are talking about something which happens when this body and mind "die" at the end of our lives. But that's actually a totally arbitrary decision we're making. I don't think that moment, whatever it will be, is actually any different from what is happening right now. And in fact, who is it that is dying anyway? Or being reborn, for that matter. To me, rebirth is right now, every moment. It's already happening, at least from the provisional, conditioned view of things. From Genjokoan (and a lecture by Okumura that I'll link below): "Firewood becomes ash. Ash cannot turn back into firewood again. However, we should not view ash as after and firewood as before. We should know that firewood dwells in the dharma position of firewood and it has its own before and after. Although there is before and after, past and future are cut off. Ash stays at the position of ash and it has its own before and after. As firewood never becomes firewood again after it is burned and becomes ash, after person dies, there is no return to living. However, in buddha dharma, it is a never-changing tradition not to say that life becomes death. Therefore we call it no-arising. It is the laid-down way of buddha's turning the dharma wheel not to say that death becomes life. Therefore, we call it no-perishing. Life is a position at one time; death is also a position at one time. For instance, this is like winter and spring. We don't think that winter becomes spring, and we don't say that spring becomes summer." http://thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Dogen_Teachings/Genjokoan_Okumara.htm e2: The ADZG podcast teishos have become such a regular part of my week (and I value them so much) that I almost feel like a remote sangha member. You're very lucky to be able to practice there! e3: Did you make it to Kyoto? If yes, did you wind up going to kiyomizu dera or fushimi inari? And did you manage to eat any soba on New Year’s Eve? Red Dad Redemption fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Jan 18, 2020 |
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Jan 18, 2020 07:46
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I rarely post but since there's Soto chat I figured I'd join in a bit. I'm actually about to head to a monastery here in the US for a six week Ango period on Monday. This will be my second Ango retreat and I'm happy to answer any questions folks may have. Also as for the waiting outside the gates bit discussed earlier, I believe that's considered part of tangaryo which is a probationary period for new monks. Koun Franz has a good account of his tangaryo up on his blog here: https://nyoho.com/2012/04/25/youre-free-to-stay/
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Jan 19, 2020 00:27
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