|
oxsnard posted:Serious question: is there a consensus leftist opinion on circumcision for boys? I'm Catholic and was circumcised. It doesn't bother me and when we had our son I would've not really cared either way (the "son should look like his daddy" thing is creepy as hell) but my wife is Jewish and so that made it easy for me You don't wanna know
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 06:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 23:58 |
|
|
Shbobdb posted:"I've spent time in their culture living with them and you haven't. It's a beautiful ceremony and from a harm-reduction perspective we have to respect their ways. We can't impose our culture." Your friend sounds dumb, her wife sounds dumber, and both are kinda beyond saving. Sucks but it happens. I once dated somebody who started out really cool, before falling in with a crowd of super-privileged charter school teachers (they came from extreme wealth and had partners making 6x what they were so they could comfortably live in the most expensive part of Boston on a $45k/yr salary) who loathed unions despite being “progressives” and approached their work with the stupid messianic belief that all charter school teachers are encouraged to adopt, that no union public school teacher could possibly care about the kids more than them because those people were clearly more focused on getting concessions out of the system through their union than working at the worst, most abusive schools possible.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 06:18
|
|
|
oxsnard posted:Serious question: is there a consensus leftist opinion on circumcision for boys? I'm Catholic and was circumcised. It doesn't bother me and when we had our son I would've not really cared either way (the "son should look like his daddy" thing is creepy as hell) but my wife is Jewish and so that made it easy for me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2Cf-6vKVWg
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 06:21
|
|
|
Shbobdb posted:When I've pointed out that the culture they are trying to enable loving kills gays all the time, she (it's really just one of them, her wife is a dear friend of mine and though I'm not super happy with their marriage, like, who hasn't had a friend with an SO that they don't care for? As a couple they absolutely have "her friends" and "her friends" and "their friends" groups and I'm definitely only a part of "her (my friend from college)" group, not "her (the fgm enthusiast)" and, sadly, not "their" friend group. My strong opposition to FGM, despite the high crime of not being a woman, is absolutely a reason why I'm on the periphery. "Every woman has the right to her own body" is an easily understood statement. Saying you apply it to FGM as well as to abortion rights continues to keep the power of agency in the hands of women but likely makes this SO's position look inconsistent and arbitrary.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 06:23
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 06:23
|
|
|
oxsnard posted:Serious question: is there a consensus leftist opinion on circumcision for boys? I'm Catholic and was circumcised. It doesn't bother me and when we had our son I would've not really cared either way (the "son should look like his daddy" thing is creepy as hell) but my wife is Jewish and so that made it easy for me I don't know if I would call it a consensus but between the concept of respecting a child's bodily autonomy becoming more normalized and the fact that most of research backing up the idea that circumcized penises somehow equate to better health is being disputed or revealed as having a lot of confirmation bias, I think the general thing is to not do it unless you have a medically relevant or religious reason. It's not super common yet but it's not the social taboo that it used to be either. There are of course a lot of bad information and weird arguments going both ways out there so it's not really a subject I would recommend googling.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 06:25
|
|
|
Huge get: https://twitter.com/people4bernie/status/1217652631838973952?s=21
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 06:25
|
|
|
Craptacular! posted:"Every woman has the right to her own body" is an easily understood statement. Saying you apply it to FGM as well as to abortion rights continues to keep the power of agency in the hands of women but likely makes this SO's position look inconsistent and arbitrary. Once you hit some reasonable level of agency, slice your own genitalia however you desire is a bit different than performing it on a 3 year old hth
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 06:25
|
|
|
Sodomy Hussein posted:I love that in mere hours after #neverwarren exploded, the media is desperately trying to spin it as a bot campaign. And you thought Warren taking a DNA test was the worst idea she had. It's really hard to say how this has affected Bernie, as a campaign but gently caress even on a personal level. The point is the media went from blackout to a week of confused optimism because an awful lot of the traditional signs were pointing to Bernie becoming the frontrunner, especially the ones the establishment types take as gospel. But instead of the blackout ending and the murmuring of confused optimism erupting into a narrative they can't ignore even if they want to, his friend and ally of the primary just did this. It's really hard to quantify the insanity of this and what effects it could have. We're lucky they hosed it up so badly, but even as blatantly obvious as this is it isn't done yet and who loving knows what's next. It's not really good news like it was setting up to be. This is like best case of a massive ratfuck but it's not like a lot of powerful people are going to stop trying to prevent him. hobotrashcanfires fucked around with this message at 06:29 on Jan 16, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 06:27
|
|
|
Mat Cauthon posted:I don't know if I would call it a consensus but between the concept of respecting a child's bodily autonomy becoming more normalized and the fact that most of research backing up the idea that circumcized penises somehow equate to better health is being disputed or revealed as having a lot of confirmation bias, I think the general thing is to not do it unless you have a medically relevant or religious reason. It's not super common yet but it's not the social taboo that it used to be either. Oh I'm well aware of the insane anti circumcision people. The harm, if there is any, seems pretty minimal and uncommon. Your first paragraph is how I view the whole thing
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 06:28
|
|
|
drat the crucial NUMTOT endorsement? WOW!
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 06:28
|
|
|
oxsnard posted:Once you hit some reasonable level of agency, slice your own genitalia however you desire is a bit different than performing it on a 3 year old hth Yes? The point is that violating the right of each woman to her own body is bad whether it's done for family, religious, or any other tradition. Note this line of argument will not work with Republicans, who will likely start telling you about the unborn women being denied their bodies by abortion. These are the people you can't help.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 06:28
|
|
|
oxsnard posted:Serious question: is there a consensus leftist opinion on circumcision for boys? I'm Catholic and was circumcised. It doesn't bother me and when we had our son I would've not really cared either way (the "son should look like his daddy" thing is creepy as hell) but my wife is Jewish and so that made it easy for me
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 06:30
|
|
|
Craptacular! posted:Yes? The point is that violating the right of each woman to her own body is bad whether it's done for family, religious, or any other tradition. Oh I misread your original post. Yeah, absolute moral relativism is super loving lazy poo poo. agreed
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 06:31
|
|
|
MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Probably not but for what it's worth I think it's mutilation and I think it should be banned. I'm not calling you out for it because tradition is powerful along with, in America at least "oh everyone does it" but it's really gross. Like I don't know, I think if you just have a seat and close your eyes and clear your mind and say "I'm going to cut off a piece of my son's body for no reason" that you'll see that it's wrong, and if that doesn't do it there's probably nothing more I can say. It's bad. Yeah I can see that, it's pretty loving stupid if you stop to look at it objectively. I mean I got my dick snipped and I can still piss and gently caress just like everyone else, so it's not really in the same ballpark as FGM. He's 5 and I'm not sure I would sign off on it today, but I'm certainly not losing sleep over it
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 06:34
|
|
|
oxsnard posted:Yeah I can see that, it's pretty loving stupid if you stop to look at it objectively. I mean I got my dick snipped and I can still piss and gently caress just like everyone else, so it's not really in the same ballpark as FGM. He's 5 and I'm not sure I would sign off on it today, but I'm certainly not losing sleep over it
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 06:42
|
|
|
There is nothing sad nor tragic about any of this Warren needed to be smashed a long time ago, Kamala was a failure for being unable to.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 06:45
|
|
|
oxsnard posted:Wait, there are leftists who use moral relativism to justify FGM? Jesus Given that they went all in on Hillary and are going all in on Warren, I'd say "Wait, there are centrists who use moral relativism to justify FGM? Jesus". Otherwise the quote stands. Part of the initial rift was me not applauding her for trying to bringing back what she learned during her time in Africa to help the local immigrant population. Like, even as harm reduction, I get it. I'd rather a fresh scalpel than a rusty razor if it has to happen. But Joe Bidenly I'll naively sputter, "But this is America!" because, like, that poo poo shouldn't happen here.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 06:45
|
|
|
Okay from someone familiar with the issue, yes "FGM" is often on the face 'consensual' but from a cultural context it is often required if you want to be married and considered a respectable adult woman and poo poo which is still coercion and the very common lack of knowledge about the safety, hygiene, and broad sexual impacts of the practice are not exactly conducive to a well reasoned decision. A lot of these procedures are done with a used razor blade by people that aren't all that familiar with sanitary procedures and very commonly they're done on girls, not adults. And I put "FGM" in quotes because there are very many people who have had these procedures done and it isn't very nice to go around calling their genitals mutilated, regardless of how harmful the practice is. Like if women want to go to a surgeon and have their genitals modified, that's their business. If you're told you won't be able to marry or have kids, that you'll forever be a child with a dirty genitalia that could poison your newborn children, well that's an entirely different matter.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 06:45
|
|
|
oxsnard posted:Serious question: is there a consensus leftist opinion on circumcision for boys? I'm Catholic and was circumcised. It doesn't bother me and when we had our son I would've not really cared either way (the "son should look like his daddy" thing is creepy as hell) but my wife is Jewish and so that made it easy for me No, and there’s almost been a consensus effort on the part of everybody to keep it that way. None of the olds want to talk about it, certainly. One of the major problems is that it’s been a common touchstone for European anti-semites/Islamophobes since literally the crusades. And nobody on the left wants to be unwelcoming, or be seen as unwelcoming, to Jews or Muslims. And it doesn’t help that the valid body-autonomy and simple biological arguments against it have some overlap with MRA talking points and get a lot of discussion in those spaces. This is why the Andrew Yang stuff became momentarily controversial to the point where he dropped it, and why there’s still a ton of murkiness as to who actually makes up the Yang Gang, and what the ratio of white nationalists there is, vs legit leftists and nonracists. Unfortunately this occasionally seems to get pushed into lumping anybody talking about the issue into the MRA category, much like how fathers’ rights/divorce equality advocates occasionally have- despite the fact that from a definitional standpoint divorce equality and equality of body autonomy are both feminist positions. Then there’s the whole generational thing and the long-standing debate some feminist circles have been having for a while- is it feminist to tell a woman used to one style of dong that her desires and preferences are bad? Is it more or less feminist to argue against surgically modifying your kids? How does this fit into the larger narrative of men policing women’s sexuality? Does that even matter? It becomes very easy to immediately default to the current dominant trend of “not my business I don’t really care either way” or, in the past, to medical arguments. And finally- we’re so bad and shamey about sex in this country in general, that when dudes do talk about it, it often devolves into two camps of adult boys airing out their sexual insecurities and yelling “DON’T TELL ME MY DICK IS BAD” at each other. Since the dominant cohort of older men in this country are cut, it creates an environment where people naturally just don’t want to risk offending or riling anybody up or -god forbid- having to talk or think about their penises. It’s even weirder because the whole reason it became so prevalent in the US begins with a weird confluence of the religious right and psychoanalysis (if we discourage boys from masturbating they won’t become degenerate or gay or communist) and ends with our private for-profit healthcare industry finding avenues to reliably print money. So it IS 100% a ~Leftism~ issue on multiple fronts. If you wanna...umm explore the topic further, you should come to the A/T sex questions thread. And definitely read the very entertaining (and entirely relevant) meltdown somebody had in there a few months back.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 07:02
|
|
|
Trabisnikof posted:Because it refers to a specific part of the political Demi-elite. Those whose credentials in the service of power is their single source of social cache and means. It’s not the politicians and it’s not voters. Lanyards are the elite political professionals who profess superiority over both, the politicians being too stupid like their voters. Yeah, I’m willing to Toxx on “not a single person in this thread is an employed political starfucker in D.C.”; that term is stupid as poo poo. I’m willing to hold my tongue when PJ uses it because she gets set in her language, but she’s the only one who gets a pass. Stop trying to be Trump.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 07:03
|
|
|
We live in a bizarre world. I just hope the moderators of This Cat is C H O N K Y are on the Bern bus.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 07:08
|
|
|
oxsnard posted:Serious question: is there a consensus leftist opinion on circumcision for boys? I'm Catholic and was circumcised. It doesn't bother me and when we had our son I would've not really cared either way (the "son should look like his daddy" thing is creepy as hell) but my wife is Jewish and so that made it easy for me The real, proper leftist position is, "This is not really in the top 1,000 concerns we're actually dealing with right now, and anyone who takes a super-strong stance on it one way or the other is the worst type of IDPOL dipshit. Yes, this includes Andrew Yang." e: for clarity's sake, I'm speaking entirely about male circumcision, and not bodily autonomy in a broad sense. Obviously things like abortion are in the top 10 issues. Majorian fucked around with this message at 07:39 on Jan 16, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 07:10
|
|
|
papa horny michael posted:Yeah, I’m willing to Toxx on “not a single person in this thread is an employed political starfucker in D.C.”; that term is stupid as poo poo. I’m willing to hold my tongue when PJ uses it because she gets set in her language, but she’s the only one who gets a pass. Stop trying to be Trump. If you went to any sort of elite or name-recognized school you know people who strove and in many cases grew up to be “lanyard class”. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the term and I can picture individuals who fit it. trilobite terror fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Jan 16, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 07:12
|
|
|
Majorian posted:The real, proper leftist position is, "This is not really in the top 1,000 concerns we're actually dealing with right now, and anyone who takes a super-strong stance on it one way or the other is the worst type of IDPOL dipshit. Yes, this includes Andrew Yang." No it isn’t. Go gently caress yourself with that argument. Bodily autonomy is not small potatoes and it’s gross of you to say that it is or conflate it with identity politics.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 07:14
|
|
|
Electric Bugaloo posted:No, and there’s almost been a consensus effort on the part of everybody to keep it that way. None of the olds want to talk about it, certainly. Thanks those are all interesting comments. Setting aside religion and going towards body autonomy I was reminded of this family friend of ours. they had a son who was born with an extra set of thumbs. Totally normal 5 fingers and just these two extra tiny little thumbs. It was a totally harmless deformity. His parents decided that they would let him decide when he was old enough if he wanted to keep his extra fingers. This kid was born in the 90s so in a way it was pretty cool of them to think about it like that. So the kid grows up and the little thumbs actually make him really good at Xbox, as he had some control of the extra thumbs. But he, unsurprisingly, at 14 decides yeah he doesn't actually want to look like a freak and get made fun of. So he opts to have them cut off with his parents' support. Surgery went fine, but this kid had to go through a few years of PT to relearn how to move his hands. They could've done it at a super young age: the surgury would've been less painful and require no therapy. Did his parents make the right call? I have no loving clue. Stuff like this is complicated and when you're a parent, half of the time you have no idea if you're making the right decision about their lives. But I digress
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 07:14
|
|
|
They probably should have had them removed at a young age, birth defects in the hands are pretty much always a huge impedance to normal life. A foreskin, however, is not. There really isn't any moral justification at all for cutting off a part of your child's penis for no reason. If an informed adult wishes to do it then they can go ahead and get it done, but doing it to a child who cannot consent to such a thing is legit hosed up. It's not something that anybody is going to go bother to fight against generally, and the practice will probably die off in due time anyways, but that's really no excuse to take part in it either.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 07:18
|
|
|
papa horny michael posted:Yeah, I’m willing to Toxx on “not a single person in this thread is an employed political starfucker in D.C.”; that term is stupid as poo poo. I’m willing to hold my tongue when PJ uses it because she gets set in her language, but she’s the only one who gets a pass. Stop trying to be Trump. How the gently caress is this "being Trump?" What the gently caress does this have to do with this thread? "Lanyard" has been used for a long time as slang to denote the non-academic professional/technocratic people who work in the think tank/consultancy world. It predates this thread by years. https://geotrickster.com/tag/lanyards/ https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Lanyard https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/your-app-isnt-helping-the-people-of-saudi-arabia-1790198445 http://xpmethod.plaintext.in/torn-apart/reflections/moacir_p_de_sa_pereira_2.html It's like a super loving old reference that people in lefty circles have used, and that recently has become popularized because of Chapo. You loving melting down over it isn't going to change people's use of it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 07:18
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/tinybaby/status/1217652785346301952
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 07:18
|
|
|
Electric Bugaloo posted:No it isn’t. Go gently caress yourself with that argument. Bodily autonomy is not small potatoes and it’s gross of you to say that it is or conflate it with identity politics. Wow, I clearly expressed my position there quite poorly. I'm genuinely sorry. Bodily autonomy is certainly not small potatoes; that's not what I was trying to say at all. Rather, I was trying to say that this is not an issue that makes oxsnard a bad leftist one way or the other. I didn't mean to underplay the importance of bodily autonomy; I just find absolutists on the issue to be really grating, when there are other aspects of bodily autonomy that I think most leftists would agree are of a higher order of importance.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 07:18
|
|
|
oxsnard posted:Serious question: is there a consensus leftist opinion on circumcision for boys? The consensus among respected Marxist scholars is that the dog ending is canon.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 07:19
|
|
|
Electric Bugaloo posted:No it isn’t. Go gently caress yourself with that argument. Bodily autonomy is not small potatoes and it’s gross of you to say that it is or conflate it with identity politics. tbf I think he was specifically talking about circumcision. As someone who was mutilated by my own parents and given that there doesn't seem to be much tangible impact on the lives of people one way or the other, the issue of circumcision is probably not priority number one, especially if it's just treated as a one off topic Son of Thunderbeast posted:The consensus among respected Marxist scholars is that the dog ending is canon. 
oxsnard fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Jan 16, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 07:24
|
|
|
Shbobdb posted:"I've spent time in their culture living with them and you haven't. It's a beautiful ceremony and from a harm-reduction perspective we have to respect their ways. We can't impose our culture." Hey man who are you to judge? I’m sure most women would be happy to have their clitoris scraped off. Now excuse me while I go stick my dick in a garbage disposal.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 07:44
|
|
|
oxsnard posted:Serious question: is there a consensus leftist opinion on circumcision for boys? I'm Catholic and was circumcised. It doesn't bother me and when we had our son I would've not really cared either way (the "son should look like his daddy" thing is creepy as hell) but my wife is Jewish and so that made it easy for me I’m not sure about the leftist perspective but I know there’s no strong medical reason to do a circumcision. On the other hand there’s no strong medical reason not to do a circumcision either. Obviously its definitely not comparable to FGM. Some people are super anti-circumcision because they say it reduces sensation which is probably true but it’s a little ridiculous because it seems like most people with circumcisions are perfectly happy with the level of sensation they get.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 07:47
|
|
|
DeeplyConcerned posted:I’m not sure about the leftist perspective but I know there’s no strong medical reason to do a circumcision. On the other hand there’s no strong medical reason not to do a circumcision either. Obviously its definitely not comparable to FGM. Some people are super anti-circumcision because they say it reduces sensation which is probably true but it’s a little ridiculous because it seems like most people with circumcisions are perfectly happy with the level of sensation they get.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 08:01
|
|
|
This is probably not a terribly great issue to be discussing in the Dem primary thread, if you think about it. I'm sorry I contributed to it in any way.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 08:02
|
|
|
DeeplyConcerned posted:Some people are super anti-circumcision because they say it reduces sensation which is probably true but it’s a little ridiculous because it seems like most people with circumcisions are perfectly happy with the level of sensation they get. That’s because you’ll never know  the consensus from people who’ve had it done in teen/adult years is mixed- some really hate the change and others prefer it, but that seems to be mostly because if you’re getting it done at that age you’re probably in the percentage of people with severe phimosis or some other foreskin problem
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 08:03
|
|
|
What we need is one last debate where all the candidates are asked “In one word, do you support circumcision?”
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 08:05
|
|
|
Majorian posted:This is probably not a terribly great issue to be discussing in the Dem primary thread, if you think about it. I'm sorry I contributed to it in any way. YEOP. that’s why I pimped the A/T Sex thread earlier. Everybody there is really cool and good and well adjusted. Except for Qubee, who is basically the Forky of sex. Also I think people are kinda burned out from the last 72 hours of DEFCON 1 rage. Plus what’s more classically D&D than a circumcision derail? It’s a practice as old as our forums culture itself
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 08:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 23:58 |
|
|
I think maybe you shouldn't make choices about irreversible cosmetic surgeries for other people, even your own kid. Let them come to that decision themselves when they are old enough to make it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2020 08:15
|
|
