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twistedmentat posted:The reason the Avengers don't help defend mutants is because they don't appear in the books that's happening. When they do appear in them, they're generally written "no, mutants are people, gently caress you loving racist shitheads *hits with shield*" The problem is things like AvX and IvX and Civil War etc have turned "well the Avengers just aren't appearing in mutant books" to "the Avengers only care about the X-Men when it's time to be real lovely to them"
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Jan 16, 2020 05:04
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galagazombie posted:But no longer being able to tell the difference has turned out to be the "solution" to lots of racism in the real world. Like how in America racism against Germans, Irish, and Italians disappeared because once you could no longer tell them apart there was nothing really to be racist against. giving everyone laser toes or bat wings would probably get rid of anti-mutant bigotry better than anything else since now you can't tell them apart and thus direct anger at them. Funnily enough if it had actually worked Magneto's make everyone mutants plan from the first X-men movie would be one of the best ways of solving every problem mutants face. It's a question of where you put your emphasis. If you're saying "if everyone had superpowers there'd be no reason to be lovely to mutants because of their superpowers," you're absolutely correct... but you also, by following that course, make 'being a mutant' stop being special and meaningful, because the very thing that sets them apart from humanity has been erased. And if you're valuing, not just 'make humans stop hating mutants' but also the idea that 'being a mutant is special and good,' if you're advocating for any sense of mutant identity, the cure becomes worse than the disease. To use an example that I think is a little bit fraught and I apologize but HoX/PoX already alluded to it, to a degree... it's kind of like saying "well if there were no way to tell the difference between Jews and other people there'd be no reason to hate Jews," and while that may be true, I don't think many of the Jews I know who are proud of their heritage would be entirely on board with the idea, you know? (I apologize, I'm not super comfortable with that analogy and I don't like making it, but I think the comparison to real-world difficult issues of identity and the differences between integration and intersectionality and other identity politics issues is being deliberately made in the book, so if we're gonna talk about them we sort of have to be willing to make occasionally cringy and oversimplified analogies)
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Jan 16, 2020 05:31
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:To use an example that I think is a little bit fraught and I apologize but HoX/PoX already alluded to it, to a degree... it's kind of like saying "well if there were no way to tell the difference between Jews and other people there'd be no reason to hate Jews," and while that may be true, I don't think many of the Jews I know who are proud of their heritage would be entirely on board with the idea, you know? And that is probably a lot of what the thinking behind the mutant identity stuff is. There has been one event that killed the vast majority of mutants then living; another event that removed the vast majority of mutant powers (killing some of them, removing the consolation for being a social outcast for others, and destroying their identity as a group if not the individuals), and the whole Terrigen thing which was apparently also sterilizing them. What I imagine will be struggled with in the story at some point is "is it worth it to have the identity of 'mutants'" but in addition to being at best obnoxious, this kind of gets rid of the premise of the franchise. It's like how nobody tells a story about how Batman realizes being a superhero is for idiots and gives away 99% of his fortune to public relief projects and then that's it, that's the end.
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Jan 16, 2020 06:51
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galagazombie posted:But no longer being able to tell the difference has turned out to be the "solution" to lots of racism in the real world. Like how in America racism against Germans, Irish, and Italians disappeared because once you could no longer tell them apart there was nothing really to be racist against. giving everyone laser toes or bat wings would probably get rid of anti-mutant bigotry better than anything else since now you can't tell them apart and thus direct anger at them. Funnily enough if it had actually worked Magneto's make everyone mutants plan from the first X-men movie would be one of the best ways of solving every problem mutants face. 1) Most of the people who try and kill all of the mutants are people who self-augment, so that clearly doesn't do poo poo to make 616 people not want to murder all mutants. 2) In the movies Magneto's plan melted the one guy it was tested on, so I don't think it's a good plan.
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Jan 16, 2020 08:18
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The thing that this reboot has done a good job at emphasizing, though, is that the mutant identity is such a big deal because humans and other races en masse have made it such a big deal for years. The amount of pain and oppression that mutants have gone through for being mutants is barely fathomable. That amount of shared pain, shared trauma, is what's uniting their nation at the moment. Like yeah, it would've been nice if everyone could ascribe to the teachings of one Alex Summers where your mutant identity is just some semi-important factoid in the great wide tapestry of your personhood, but that's not how the world has dealt them their cards. That's why, while I personally don't love the Krakoan master race rhetoric, I find it 100% believable that modern mutants are drawn to it. There's been too much pain and loss for it to be otherwise.
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Jan 16, 2020 08:35
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Oh, absolutely. The value of "mutant identity" really does seem to have organically grown out of mutants' status as Official Persecuted Minority Stand-In over... basically, their entire existence. And that's something I've enjoyed about Hickman's approach - things like Magneto's speech at Davos make it clear. "We tried getting along, we tried integrating, and look what it got us. So since you decided to make us Other, we're choosing to be other, and we're going to do it using the kinds of tools you've used to screw us over for years. This is the hole you dug." And then there's Xavier off to the side adding, "but that doesn't mean we don't still love you, guys." That approach is what's made a shift in the X-Men's approach to "separatism and adoption of a distinct identity, even down to the point of creating our own language (pay no attention to the fact that the language is represented by a simple substitution cipher)" more palatable to me, in that it's made clear it's reactive. Now, the near-universal adoption of it is still a little... uh... concerning, but between the reveal of Moira's other lives and the experiences of the X-Men for their entire publication history, it makes sense to me. Incidentally, I don't care for the 'master race rhetoric' appellation, I find it to be pretty overly reductive; I don't feel like the mutants are saying 'we are better,' but I do feel like they're saying 'we are different and we're not going to hide that anymore, we're going to celebrate it,' which feels to me like a subtle but important distinction. But that's my reading, of course, so YMMV.
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Jan 16, 2020 10:34
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Magneto brought a bunch of human representatives to Jerusalem to tell them that mutants were going to replace their big-G Gods. There's definitely an aspect of mutant superiority built into Krakoan society. It's honestly the only thing I can think of that actually might represent Moira X's "break the rules" thing: an acceptance by Xavier that he IS better than humanity, and an acceptance by Magneto and Apocalypse that superiority does not necessarily mean oppression.
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Jan 16, 2020 13:07
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The starkest moment of the last issue was probably Xavier's "one month" remark. It took a single month for the humans to be back on their death squad bullshit. And that, apparently, is simply the world that humankind and mutantkind have to live in. Like...it didn't have to be this way! Humans didn't have to send soldiers to mutant homes every other month, they didn't have to drag mutant children from their beds to be lynched on the reg. But they did do those things, and they show no inclination to stop doing those things, so here we are, and now they have to deal with the response.
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Jan 16, 2020 22:43
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I noticed Xavier does seem to act like humanity is a monolithic entity. As of what Roxxon does is the fault of people living in Hungary.
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Jan 16, 2020 22:48
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twistedmentat posted:I noticed Xavier does seem to act like humanity is a monolithic entity. As of what Roxxon does is the fault of people living in Hungary. Again, when you're constantly being attacked and murdered... at what point do you just be like "OK, gently caress all of these people." It's not a monolithic thing as much as it is a systemic thing. I think the BLM comparison fits: not all cops are shooting and killing unarmed African American people- a very small minority are!- but when it happens enough, it's obviously something in the system that keeps causing this. To fix systemic issues, you tackle the whole system because focusing on individual actors clearly isn't working.
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Jan 16, 2020 23:09
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twistedmentat posted:I noticed Xavier does seem to act like humanity is a monolithic entity. As of what Roxxon does is the fault of people living in Hungary.
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Jan 17, 2020 00:07
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twistedmentat posted:I noticed Xavier does seem to act like humanity is a monolithic entity. As of what Roxxon does is the fault of people living in Hungary. I wondered, once discussion of the X-Men through the lens of identity politics started happening, how long it would take for #NotAllHumans
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Jan 17, 2020 00:11
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twistedmentat posted:I noticed Xavier does seem to act like humanity is a monolithic entity. As of what Roxxon does is the fault of people living in Hungary. Any group that silently stands by *is* at fault and precious few humans have actively worked to defend mutants while an exceeding large number have been complacent in some form of abuse or atrocity. Hungary isn't at fault for Roxxon but I bet if you look through X Men history you'll find a Hungarian mutant who got the ol' generic evil mob treatment.
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Jan 17, 2020 04:22
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Also it is, as with Magneto's tactics, turning human logic against the humans. After all, we've seen time and again that every time Magneto or Sabretooth or Apocalypse murders a bunch of humans, it's a "Mutant Atrocity" and all mutants take the blame for it, even the ones like the X-Men who tried to stop it. If every attack by a mutant against humans is "Mutant Aggression", then any attack on mutants by humans is "Human Aggression."
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Jan 17, 2020 06:08
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I mean...Hungary is what...central Europe? Eastern? I don't know exact regional sociopolitics over there, but I kinda doubt they have a spotless history in regards to racial/religious persecution. Honestly, where on the planet will you find a place that doesn't oppress the Other? That being said though...let's not forget that the actual "mutant response" so far has been pretty darn benign. So if you're that hypothetical random nowheresville village who's genuinely oppression-free and genuinely pro-equality for all, well great, all you have to do is keep on doing that, except now you'll get the bonus of extra awesome mutant medicine. It's win-win!
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Jan 17, 2020 06:54
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BrianWilly posted:The starkest moment of the last issue was probably Xavier's "one month" remark. It took a single month for the humans to be back on their death squad bullshit. When you put it this way, the use of one month as a time frame strikes me as commentary on the sort of stuck-in-the-status quo nature of big two superhero comics, now that I think about it although it's less immediately poignant because the books double shipped a lot after dawn of x (which resulted in no new x books this week, which i personally found very annoying)
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Jan 17, 2020 08:42
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I just chose Hungary as an example, but there isn't much that the average person can do to stop Roxxon or the Purifiers or AIM or Hydra or Dr Doom or The Serpent Society from attacking mutants. That being said, not being able to directly effect them isn't an excuse to just kind of not say anything. It would be nice to have Kate show up and find Black Panther with a bunch of Mutants from Africa and say "hey I rescued them from Klaw, and please take them to Karkoa, and Wakanda respects Mutants rights as human rights" or something like that. We haven't seen the heroes reaction to this stuff, even heroes that are known to be mutant positive like Spider-Man or Captain Marvel, but I did get a sense at the meeting with the human leaders, most of them were acting in good faith, except the Americans who will never not take the opportunity to try to take someone they are afraid of, no matter what the casualties are going to be.BrianWilly posted:
Yea, like Pyro hasn't burnt down an Orphanage in Detroit in revenge for mutant attacks, not to mention there has been a great amount of effort by Mutants to only deal with those who take direct action againt them. And this is Hickman, he doesn't do anything without having an idea where it's going.
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Jan 17, 2020 09:16
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I figure if they got to the point where the Purifiers were some kind of renegade AIM/Hydra group that would represent progress, the issue being both stochastic anti-mutant violence and how gee the government keeps building loving Sentinels The introductory thing with Sabretooth I thought was pretty telling. They did take him despite his murders, but they also sent him to Mutant Hell, so from a purely judicial perspective, hey, it got handled.
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Jan 17, 2020 09:33
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The Utopia island was created because there was massive rioting in support of legal restrictions on the reproductive rights of mutants in the wake of the first post M-day mutant birth.
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Jan 17, 2020 09:36
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OnimaruXLR posted:When you put it this way, the use of one month as a time frame strikes me as commentary on the sort of stuck-in-the-status quo nature of big two superhero comics, now that I think about it I think Fallen Angels was originally on the schedule for this week, and, yeah, it was probably wiser to dump that out early rather than have it stand alone this week.
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Jan 17, 2020 10:31
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twistedmentat posted:I just chose Hungary as an example, but there isn't much that the average person can do to stop Roxxon or the Purifiers or AIM or Hydra or Dr Doom or The Serpent Society from attacking mutants. That being said, not being able to directly effect them isn't an excuse to just kind of not say anything. It would be nice to have Kate show up and find Black Panther with a bunch of Mutants from Africa and say "hey I rescued them from Klaw, and please take them to Karkoa, and Wakanda respects Mutants rights as human rights" or something like that. We haven't seen the heroes reaction to this stuff, even heroes that are known to be mutant positive like Spider-Man or Captain Marvel, but I did get a sense at the meeting with the human leaders, most of them were acting in good faith, except the Americans who will never not take the opportunity to try to take someone they are afraid of, no matter what the casualties are going to be. Yeah, see, the mutant metaphor isn't "What if supervillains attacked marginalized people?" It's "These characters represent marginalized people and the struggles they deal with daily." The point of the whole thing is that the X-Men's greatest enemy are the average person and their bigoted position on mutants. And what DoX seems to be trying to tackle is a shift in that outward bigotry to confronting the systemic bigotry, similar to how social scientists in the last couple decades have (correctly) pointed out that overt and individual bigoted acts are symptoms of deeper systems. So again: if you're a mutant who has gone through this- who may have at one point been murdered by sentinels or depowered (BY AN AVENGER) or had to listen to a US senator suggesting you belong in a goddamn concentration camp- why the gently caress would you trust the FF or Black Panther or whoever to loving save you? Because they loving haven't. Yeah maybe they fought the Red Skull once to help the X-Men but that's not helping the broader mutant population. Also, we've seen heroes reactions to this in literally the first issue of HoX: the FF basically told Scott this was a bad idea. So there's your good-guy reaction to their decision: "Why are you messing with the status quo!?!?" I like the idea of the FF and Avengers as good guys doing good things. But I also like well-crafted stories that are antagonistic to them. I'm with folks here who have questioned the 100% unified reaction to Krakoa by mutantdom, but I'm all for the new reality of mutants finally pushing back en masse.
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Jan 17, 2020 14:26
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twistedmentat posted:
This might be editorial meddling, but this is provably false. See Ex Nihilo and that whole thing, plus the SHIELD mini that took forever to come out and was ultimately unimportant.
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Jan 17, 2020 14:36
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What was missing with Ex Nihilo? That seemed like a little self contained story.
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Jan 17, 2020 14:40
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It felt to me that it didn't actually lead anywhere. It sort of wrapped up, but I guess I personally was disappointed by it. EDIT: To give an example, I would have been happy if they had used their last burst of creation energy to make Battleworld and then Doom took it over after that, or do something other than futilely die to prove how powerful the threat was. Like, I'm not mad that that exact same thing happened to the heavy hitters squad with Thor and Hyperion, because what else could that squad have done? But for characters who had more interesting powers I wanted a more interesting end. Plus, the ending with Thor was really cool and badass. Gologle fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Jan 17, 2020 |
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Jan 17, 2020 14:42
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Gologle posted:It felt to me that it didn't actually lead anywhere. It sort of wrapped up, but I guess I personally was disappointed by it. I mean, let's be fair - It's Hickman, so it's always heading somewhere. That somewhere might not be someplace you like, as he does have a bad habit of having characters chump out to illustrate the size of a threat (still a little irked at Cyclops' all-too-brief appearance in Secret Wars), but that doesn't mean he doesn't have an idea where it's going.
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Jan 17, 2020 15:04
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:(still a little irked at Cyclops' all-too-brief appearance in Secret Wars), but that doesn't mean he doesn't have an idea where it's going. I've always been sad we never got any history behind that phoenix egg, at least not in any book I saw.
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Jan 17, 2020 15:11
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New book announced https://www.cbr.com/children-of-the-atom-x-men-sidekicks/ kind of...don't see the point of this?
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Jan 17, 2020 22:16
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On the one hand, it's not quite "oh poo poo!" level, though I do think it's an interesting concept. On the other hand, it's Vita Ayala so I'm in.
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Jan 17, 2020 22:19
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There are so many young mutants already around just twiddling their thumbs waiting to be placed into books that I can't get excited about new characters right now, however decent they might be. Hell, wasn't there a "no new characters" edict from Hickman, or did I dream that?
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Jan 17, 2020 22:24
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I like the idea of current X-Men training up young mutants with similar powers. Not so big on sidekicks in the traditional sense for the kind of thing currently happening in X-Books. And I hope the kids' powers aren't carbon copies so that maybe they get to have several mentors for different aspects of their abilities.
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Jan 17, 2020 22:33
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I can't bring myself to give a poo poo when it's another group of teen X-Men that are going to be crowd fillers and nothing more the second this book ends. Maybe use the characters you have? e: Like you literally have every mutant character ever at your finger tips and you decide it'd be a good thing to focus part of your line on new characters that have similar powers and costumes as other, more popular characters? What?? Blockhouse fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Jan 17, 2020 |
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Jan 17, 2020 22:34
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No one gets the green light to introduce a new character or write a high profile book until they successfully revitalize 1) Rusty and Skids 2) Feral and Thornn 3) Sinsear 4) Shard 5) Jesse Bedlam Get twelve issues out of them and then maybe we'll trust you enough to give more important characters like Random or Graymalkin their time to shine.
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Jan 17, 2020 22:45
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That reminds me that Masque could be wandering around Krakoa, being super weird at people.
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Jan 17, 2020 22:54
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Give Rockslide and Anole their own team. Also give Anole a bunch of adorable boyfriends.
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Jan 17, 2020 22:58
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OH NO NEW CHARACTERS
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Jan 17, 2020 22:59
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Strongly disliking how much they appear to have essentially duplicate powers. Hopefully that's deceptive. Need a Marauder's team of Kate, Jubilee, Laura, Armor, and Idie. That's the sidekick team I can get behind
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Jan 17, 2020 23:04
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Are there any mid to high profile mutants not already being used in one of the 20 new X-Men books?
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Jan 17, 2020 23:08
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Roth posted:Are there any mid to high profile mutants not already being used in one of the 20 new X-Men books? Most of the Young X-Men I think.
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Jan 17, 2020 23:20
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Oh true. Give them five years for nostalgic writers that read them in middle school to take over.
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Jan 17, 2020 23:25
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Roth posted:Are there any mid to high profile mutants not already being used in one of the 20 new X-Men books?
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Jan 17, 2020 23:40
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