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Xarbala posted:It's hosed up that "more like a videogame" is considered a bad thing and something used to dismiss 4e out of hand with rote criticism when the best grid-based tactical system in videogames, XCOM, directly informs the combat system design of Fragged Empire, which is probably one of the best grid-based combat ttrpgs out there. It's also been a critique since I've been playing. There were people comparing 3rd to diablo, and hell I remember comparing the paladin's ability to summon their steed to WoW's mount system. I think part of it is because some folks started playing with games that justified their mechanics with 'realism.' Hell Gygax did that and if called out would throw in smug 'Well it's realistic in a setting where [D&D-ism] is true' and players have aped the same attitude. I think that's why you see a bunch of weird 'rules as physics' mindsets or players that genuinely extrapolate into stuff like the peasant railguns. When talking about incredibly broken things and dumb oversights like the whole 3x ladder being worth less than two 5 foot polls, or spellbooks less than then blank pages ripped out and sold, I've had DMs proudly talk about how they'd punish or outsmart their players for doing stuff like that -which once again was also Gygax's style and suggested course of action. 4th was the only edition of d&d that acknowledged it was a game and some rules were there or worked the way they did solely because of it. It also was the edition that had some of the most creative devs from magic working on it, but then again so did Mearls. In conclusion D&D is a land of contrasts.
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Jan 18, 2020 18:19
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I’m going to sing the praises of LANCER once again, for making its different roles all active participants in the combat. There may be some dedicated healing abilities, but it seems like recovery is mostly handled internally and that support is handled mostly by handing out stranger debuffs to the enemy and by giving the allies significant buffs. Also, it’s fairly easy to completely change out what role you’re playing between missions and most mechs fulfill some form of hybrid role. It does have ability scores, but they’re the good kind, in that everyone wants all of them, they perform interesting effects, and they’re used in place of a skill system inside of mechs, instead of in supplement to it.
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Jan 18, 2020 20:20
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Meinberg posted:Speaking of TTRPGs and video games, what’s that Legacy game that’s clearly just Castlevania but also incredibly good? I highly recommend that one too. Having run it, it's not that great. It's clearly something that the author loves, but the book it pretty unhelpful for the GM and the players. The exploration mechanic is dire, because in practice it's just x things we have to encounter before we fight the boss, rather than giving the players any sense of exploration or choices related to exploration. There is apparently a supplement that helps, but I get put off buying from itch.io every time it wants to add a fee on-top of the listed price - it's apparently incapable of calculating VAT before the billing process starts. This is not a fault of the game or the author, but it is the reason I haven't had a look at the supplement.
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Jan 19, 2020 03:14
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Angrymog posted:Having run it, it's not that great. It's clearly something that the author loves, but the book it pretty unhelpful for the GM and the players. The exploration mechanic is dire, because in practice it's just x things we have to encounter before we fight the boss, rather than giving the players any sense of exploration or choices related to exploration. My group has been playing this for a few weeks and we’re enjoying it. It does have issues that could have used another editing pass (most notably, the rules text in the playbooks and the book proper don’t always match), but overall I think it does a good PBTA homage to Castlevania. We were actually using the supplement’s version of travel, but found it unsatisfying and switched back to the corebook’s move. Like, this is a game about crawling a dungeon, but like most PBTA games it’s abstracting out a lot of the logistical nitty gritty. Traverse the Labyrinth tells you what kind of room you ended up in, and then you choose what to do in there (and then the story goes on based on the hits and misses of subsequent moves), but as written Rhapsody of Blood is not a game that caters to “I take five steps and poke the floor” kind of play. We were entirely willing to trade off some moment-to-moment agency for the novelty of doing a compressed dungeon crawl. Parkreiner fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Jan 19, 2020 |
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Jan 19, 2020 04:37
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Splicer posted:You need to find someone with the time, energy, and investment to actually do this who wants to apply surface level fixes for 4E without pulling threads. "I might as well delete weapon expertise, it's redundant. Come to think of it, why not just bake it into the class progression and ditch those feats entirely? Oh, and the other math fix feats. I should probably do the class patch feats too. Huh, some of these other feats should probably just be class options or themes. This is really cutting down the number of feats you need for builds, you don't really need six per tier. Maybe silo off the non combat feats? Or... hmmmm..." I mean........ I still believe. It's been a long time, and I'm not sure I ever looked at the final form of any of the math. Is the final version compiled anywhere? A most current SRD, whatever the monster math wound up as, someone who shows what the expected to hit of characters at a given level is and how much should be from items/level/feat/whatever?
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Jan 19, 2020 04:44
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Mystic Mongol posted:I mean........ I used this : http://rpg.brainclouds.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/AttackTables.pdf, Monster Vault and the Monster Math on an Index card and I felt I got most of the way already with just that. I assumed DTAS so whatever your primary stat was, it was used for attack math. You'd have to derive secondary attack stats from that, but it should be pretty trivial. I also ditched all feat and magic item tax stuff and so people picked feats that were interesting instead of math, and all magic items actually did interesting things and not just gave out +2 or whatever since that was assumed in the math. Far from perfect but it was something.
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Jan 19, 2020 04:55
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Meinberg posted:I don’t know. There’s a free beta edition available on itch.io though! Oh, I picked that up day 1. It's what convinced me to back the kickstarter in the first place. Flavivirus posted:The BackerKit preorder store ought to go up this month! I’ve been a bit snowed under with freelance work and getting Mysthea laid out again after switching layout programs, but I’ve got some big plans for the next Voidheart release - including a bunch of example vassals and contacts written by a horde of guest writers. That's cool to hear. Hopefully you make it to the new playbook stretch goal, it sounded really interesting! Is there an ETA for the Voidheart release, or is it just 'when it's done'?
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Jan 19, 2020 05:43
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The Nightmares Underneath got mentioned a bit ago during Fighter!chat so I decided to take a peek. It's kind of interesting seeing pbta-ish sensibilities, treating classes closer to whole packages like playbooks, married to an old-school style framework with discrete rules that inform just exactly what kind of crunchy game this is meant to be running in a way that's a little more structured and guided, in a design sense, than more purestrain pbta-style games. Has this sort of sensibility been running through a lot of OSR/old-school-adjacent games lately? I realize that question sounds vague so take it how you will, I'll probably be interested in what people have to say on the matter regardless.
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Jan 19, 2020 09:11
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Xarbala posted:The Nightmares Underneath got mentioned a bit ago during Fighter!chat so I decided to take a peek. It's kind of interesting seeing pbta-ish sensibilities, treating classes closer to whole packages like playbooks, married to an old-school style framework with discrete rules that inform just exactly what kind of crunchy game this is meant to be running in a way that's a little more structured and guided, in a design sense, than more purestrain pbta-style games. There's pretty much always been an experimental streak in the OSR movement, it's just not often as noticeable as it is with TNU
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Jan 19, 2020 10:15
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Agent Rush posted:That's cool to hear. Hopefully you make it to the new playbook stretch goal, it sounded really interesting! Is there an ETA for the Voidheart release, or is it just 'when it's done'? Tentatively, end of this year for the final release? But I’ll keep backers updated. In previous campaigns I think I’ve released new versions of the game too often, so people in existing games didn’t bother updating to the incrementally changed new versions and people who hadn’t started playing were confused about where to start. Fingers crossed fewer, bigger releases will work better for folks.
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Jan 19, 2020 11:01
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Flavivirus posted:Tentatively, end of this year for the final release? But I’ll keep backers updated. In previous campaigns I think I’ve released new versions of the game too often, so people in existing games didn’t bother updating to the incrementally changed new versions and people who hadn’t started playing were confused about where to start. Fingers crossed fewer, bigger releases will work better for folks. Oh, ok. Good luck, that'll be something to look forward to! I was actually asking about the next release you'd mentioned though, unless that is going to be the final?
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Jan 19, 2020 15:53
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Agent Rush posted:Oh, ok. Good luck, that'll be something to look forward to! I was actually asking about the next release you'd mentioned though, unless that is going to be the final? Oh right! That should be up in a few weeks, haha. Probably going to launch that at the same time as the backerkit?
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Jan 19, 2020 16:59
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Something I wanted to share about Fighter!Chat... When I played 4E, I remember thinking about how Defenders were just high-defense local Controllers and wondering if there was a way to merge them. Flash forward to reading Lancer, and I appreciate that they made the more obvious fix, which is splitting Strikers into (melee) Strikers and (ranged) Artillery. Which leaves you with five roles
Of course, in Lancer, there aren't five roles, but rather a ratio of five roles, because you get to build your character from a mix of five roles. I like the split, because you want the math to play differently for melee versus ranged anything. And you want to encourage Support, so there's no melee/ranged split.
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Jan 19, 2020 18:46
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I’m here to confirm yet again that Good Society is the best rpg of 2019, Jane Austen is the best subject for roleplaying and the game is tight as hell
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Jan 19, 2020 21:05
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Wrestlepig posted:I’m here to confirm yet again that Good Society is the best rpg of 2019, Jane Austen is the best subject for roleplaying and the game is tight as hell Please, tell us more! I somehow missed this, and that sounds great.
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Jan 19, 2020 21:13
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Joe Slowboat posted:Please, tell us more! I somehow missed this, and that sounds great. Good society is a gmless Jane Austen game. It’s quite light on direct mechanics: everyone gets Resolve tokens they can pass to other players to formally request a decision or action that can be rejected or negotiated with at no loss, as well as a Monologue token that lets you encourage someone to monologue about their feelings. It all works really well because the wider structural stuff is excellent: each character is made of a core archetype (Hedonist, mysterious foreigner, heir, etc) and a seperate part for their role/reputation in polite society (Clergy, Old Money, ill-reputed) which comes with a few narrative tags to guide things. There’s also a Desire card giving you a goal, and a Relationship card you give to another player to set up a tie. The wider structure is top of the class, with a perfect Scene-Spread Rumours-Write Letters structure and a campaign sheet that perfectly sets expectations and integrates all the X-card sort of things. It’s really excellent and I’d recommend it to everyone because it’s fun to be a rude brit who gets embroiled in Drama, but especially anyone curious about gmless design E: also the magic expansion is great Wrestlepig fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Jan 20, 2020 |
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Jan 20, 2020 00:17
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I do think we need a modern 4E clone with no ability scores, dramatically fewer and more impactful feats, and some small tweaks to role distribution. Should I break out my 4e Trifold, which was almost exactly that. If so what should I do with it?
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Jan 20, 2020 01:22
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neonchameleon posted:Should I break out my 4e Trifold, which was almost exactly that. If so what should I do with it? I feel like sharing it here is a good start.
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Jan 20, 2020 01:30
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CitizenKeen posted:I feel like sharing it here is a good start. It was mostly written for a design contest here - but I haven't worked on it in a long time - and should go back to the normal hit point nomenclature. Here it is
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Jan 20, 2020 01:43
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Zaphod42 posted:It makes all classes feel extremely same-y. It also feels like a videogame. You just get buttons to push. Its great for teaching people new to D&D how to play, but just feels bland. There are like 6 different playstyles for the Fighter alone
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Jan 20, 2020 04:26
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Haystack posted:7e is basically the same game as prior editions, but with a few decent refinements and improvements. In particular, the new Idea mechanic is a neat way of preventing the "game bogs down because you missed a clue" problem GUMSHOE was designed to avoid, without going to the extreme of basing the entire architecture of the system around sidestepping one bug. Also, EDU isn't as much of an "I win" stat at character gen as it used to be.
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Jan 20, 2020 04:44
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Halloween Jack posted:You've never played 4e Yeah when 4e was brand new and rolling out I had the same hate bandwagon misconceptions as Zaphod42, but that was literal years ago and since then I'd actually read the 4e phb with the intent of understanding it rather than just jumping on said bandwagon. I think most people who trot out the usual stereotypes about 4e are basing them on those shared misconceptions with little to no actual experience with the game itself.
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Jan 20, 2020 04:52
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Xarbala posted:Yeah when 4e was brand new and rolling out I had the same hate bandwagon misconceptions as Zaphod42, but that was literal years ago and since then I'd actually read the 4e phb with the intent of understanding it rather than just jumping on said bandwagon. I think most people who trot out the usual stereotypes about 4e are basing them on those shared misconceptions with little to no actual experience with the game itself. This isn't to excuse old edition war chestnuts like "lol everyone is a wizzard now it's so samey" or "my verismilitudes are hurting!" but "we tried it and didn't enjoy it so we gave up" was completely understandable. Nobody's required to give a game a second try even if it is called D&D, and even if it did improve massively later in the edition.
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Jan 20, 2020 05:14
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The issue I ran into playing 4e was that it felt like any session was pretty much just 1 or 2 battles that took far too long to get through while not necessarily being challenging. I don't know if that was more a problem with the DM or what though because maybe are some additions and other books at add on to 4e to make it feel smoother.
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Jan 20, 2020 05:16
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MonsieurChoc posted:I'd recommend my friend's self-published game inspired by Final Fantasy Tactics-style games, but it's french only and I have no idea when he'll finish the english translation. I made a ton of FFT inspired classes for 3.5 back in college. There's good ideas there. If it ever gets translated definitely post about it! Xarbala posted:It's hosed up that "more like a videogame" is considered a bad thing and something used to dismiss 4e out of hand with rote criticism when the best grid-based tactical system in videogames, XCOM, directly informs the combat system design of Fragged Empire, which is probably one of the best grid-based combat ttrpgs out there. That phrase is used to mean a specific thing which is a reasonable criticism of a roleplaying system but we should really just stop this entirely. There's nothing to be gained by being so defensive of 4th. I've literally never heard anybody say anything good about it. Now that I've seen this thread is full of roleplayers who think 4th is superior, I'll have to find those errata updates y'all were talking about and maybe give it another shake. I wasn't remotely trying to have an argument about it. I was just expressing why I didn't like it, which was asked. Really, chill. Nobody cares. Enjoy 4th if you enjoy 4th. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Jan 20, 2020 |
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Jan 20, 2020 05:20
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FirstAidKite posted:The issue I ran into playing 4e was that it felt like any session was pretty much just 1 or 2 battles that took far too long to get through while not necessarily being challenging. I don't know if that was more a problem with the DM or what though because maybe are some additions and other books at add on to 4e to make it feel smoother. One of the genuine weaknesses is that 4e doesn't do easy combat from DMs who throw softballs well. Big battles are more awesome than any other system, but easy combats are just too slow. Especially when the DM doesn't know enough to start using interesting terrain. One big fight is always much better than two small ones - and if none of your players hit 0hp in the combat you aren't hitting hard enough.
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Jan 20, 2020 05:24
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Halloween Jack posted:You've never played 4e I have too, gently caress you. It is insane we can't talk about this like adults. Its really becoming pathological how extremely defensive you are about this. "Someone doesn't like my favorite roleplaying system??? They must be lying! Nobody could play this superior system and not think it was god's gift to man!" Jesus christ dude I love VTM but if you said it was a bunch of edgelord goth kids trying to one-up each other I would go "lol yeah, I like it but... yeah". Learn to accept not everybody likes the things you do.
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Jan 20, 2020 05:24
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Zaphod42 posted:That phrase is used to mean a specific thing which is a reasonable criticism of a roleplaying system but we should really just stop this entirely. There's nothing to be gained by being so defensive of 4th. You should've cottoned on that folks round here really like talking about 4e, whether you like it or not. Don't worry about it, it's not even an L for you to hold onto, it's just a thing that happens sometimes. Also in my opinion, "more like a videogame" is actually very good for a game that's very much trying to be a tactical combat system and imo 4e's biggest sin is being too honest about the fact D&D that admits that, as a game rules-as-written, is primarily a grid-based skirmish-level tactical combat game. You don't have to play it that way, but you're tossing out a large proportion of the crunch and rules data if you choose to. Which is one way of saying, D&D, while a roleplaying game, isn't necessarily a roleplaying system per se, as most roleplaying in D&D tends to be more freeform (or about the clever uses of magic) as it's not as well-supported mechanically as combat (and magic). 4e gives Fighters and other martial classes a number of buttons to be able to press in combat. Compare this to 3.x/Pathfinder or 5e, which also gives Fighters and other martial classes buttons to press. Just fewer of them. And with less meaningful tactical decisions baked into their rules in the system. These fewer buttons might actually be very strong buttons. Monk in 5e is hilariously good simply by changing how often you can use Stunning Fist. But they're still buttons to press and there's less of them outside of 4e. Runa fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Jan 20, 2020 |
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Jan 20, 2020 05:31
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Zaphod42 posted:That phrase is used to mean a specific thing which is a reasonable criticism of a roleplaying system but we should really just stop this entirely. "You can actually do complex things that your character would know how to do without fighting the system every step of the way and assemble things from scratch as if katas and muscle memory aren't things your character would have" is not, in my opinion, a reasonable criticism of a tabletop roleplaying system. But that's what I understand from your explanation of what you mean.
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Jan 20, 2020 05:33
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Zaphod42 posted:Not necessarily, but I find that magic systems can be one of the most expressive tools for roleplaying. I wish game designers didn't seem to agree with this mindset as a bloc. You can do cool things with mundane abilities, but it feels like designers won't even try, and worse, even try to limit what you can do without magic. So frustrating.
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Jan 20, 2020 05:33
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neonchameleon posted:"You can actually do complex things that your character would know how to do without fighting the system every step of the way and assemble things from scratch as if katas and muscle memory aren't things your character would have" is not, in my opinion, a reasonable criticism of a tabletop roleplaying system. But that's what I understand from your explanation of what you mean. You should really just... ask, instead of inventing words to put in my mouth that you can easily knock down. It is really creepy how defensive you guys are about this. There is clearly nothing to be gained from talking about it. 4th is the best D&D, it is a fact, lets move on. King of Solomon posted:I wish game designers didn't seem to agree with this mindset as a bloc. You can do cool things with mundane abilities, but it feels like designers won't even try, and worse, even try to limit what you can do without magic. So frustrating. Yeah that's definitely true. Ideally roleplaying should be about flexibility and creativity regardless of what you're doing or how. But in my experience magic is one of the easier things to get right that way. I guess back when I played Scion we kinda did that with more mundane things like jumping and kicking, you would describe really unique ways of doing the action like you were in an action movie, and you'd get bonus to the roll for it. But then that's also just kinda... making physical actions magical?  But that works, and you can avoid taking it to superhero/anime levels if you want to. But even then, there's only so many ways to kick a guy really cool, or swing a sword really cool, versus magic you can just paint anything you can think of.
Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Jan 20, 2020 |
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Jan 20, 2020 05:34
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Zaphod42 posted:I made a ton of FFT inspired classes for 3.5 back in college. There's good ideas there. If it ever gets translated definitely post about it! 4E had a lot of issues but the complaints you have raised so far just echo a bunch of memes about the game instead of addressing any of the actual issues I've heard from people who played the game any significant amount of time like dwarf74's post.
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Jan 20, 2020 05:38
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You'd probably get more mileage out of not asking people to be defensive about 4e, because a lot of that defensiveness is warranted. There was a goon who was harassed out of the ttrpg industry altogether because of edition wars between pro-4e and pro-5e. And it didn't help that the pro-5e person whose fans chased her out of the industry is now known to be a notorious sex pest. E: pro-4e on SA, pro-5e mostly from offsite, if it weren't obvious. The SomethingAwful forums is basically the one place on the internet you'll find anybody willing to give 4e a fair shake and actually dig into it. Runa fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Jan 20, 2020 |
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Jan 20, 2020 05:39
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Zaphod42 posted:Yeah that's definitely true. Ideally roleplaying should be about flexibility and creativity regardless of what you're doing or how. Part of my frustration is they often don't give martials any real guaranteed agency skills. A really obvious example of this is in D&D 5e, with Rogues and Wizards tackling a locked door. Rogues get a bonus to their roll against the DC to potentially unlock the door, and Wizards...get to just say "I cast knock, the door's unlocked now." No roll, it just works. Yes, it costs resources to do it, but that doesn't really make it OK, because martials do not have that capability, period. When you start getting into combat, the lack of creativity becomes more obvious. Fighters should be able to do Captain America shield bounces and rope tricks and poo poo, Rangers should have a million different varieties of trick arrows as part of their kit. It's not just making punches and kicks interesting, it's giving them tools to be creative.
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Jan 20, 2020 05:44
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Zaphod42 posted:You should really just... ask, instead of inventing words to put in my mouth that you can easily knock down. Oh, so you do not actually speak English and the plain meaning of your words has nothing to do with what you meant. When everyone has taken your words the same way, it says something that you are blaming everyone else rather than realising that it's down to what you said. quote:I guess back when I played Scion we kinda did that with more mundane things like jumping and kicking, you would describe really unique ways of doing the action like you were in an action movie, and you'd get bonus to the roll for it. But then that's also just kinda... making physical actions magical? In short you just got a bonus from your DM for bullshitting. We've all done it. Meanwhile 4e makes you actually think about what you are doing, how your tactics work, what the environment is and how to use it and teamwork to operate together - this is because forced movement and emergent combinations rely on knowing each other and interacting with the environment. The point of 4e combat isn't to look cool. It's to roleplay as an effective combatant in the situation you find yourself in - and interacting with already defined elements. Something just giving lavish descriptions doesn't do half so well
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Jan 20, 2020 05:46
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I'm just going to ignore all discussions of 4th from now on because you people are scaring me.King of Solomon posted:Part of my frustration is they often don't give martials any real guaranteed agency skills. A really obvious example of this is in D&D 5e, with Rogues and Wizards tackling a locked door. Rogues get a bonus to their roll against the DC to potentially unlock the door, and Wizards...get to just say "I cast knock, the door's unlocked now." No roll, it just works. Yes, it costs resources to do it, but that doesn't really make it OK, because martials do not have that capability, period. Yeah I thought about mentioning stuff like that. Thing is, say you give him a captain america shield. Think of all the things cappy has done with his shield in the comics. You can come up with some pretty clever ways to bounce it off this or hit a switch or trip a guy, but its just a bunch of shield throwing stuff. Compare that to like, the Doctor Strange comics, where all kinds of psychedelic poo poo could go on... Just seems easier to write magic in creative ways than physical things. But smart people can come up with solutions to it. Just harder, I think. E: It also gets grey. Things like Cthulu are magical but not necessarily magic per se, you have things like that which are... supernatural I guess but not "magic" by definition, and there's the whole "sufficiently advanced technology indistinguishable from magic" thing. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Jan 20, 2020 |
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Jan 20, 2020 05:47
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I’m curious what it means to say that Scion made physical actions ‘more magical’ by making things more open to stunts? I just don’t see the connection between magic and getting dice for specific methods/styles being expressed. E: I see what you mean regarding total free form fitting a kind of magic where anything can happen, but most magical systems in games are pretty well-defined; if anything, an old school D&D Wizard has less room for total flexibility because all of their flexibility is expressed through a spell list, while fighters can do anything a strong skilled guy can do (and succeed and matter with very little of it, while the spells have concrete and immediate effects that can’t fail or have the DC be ‘nope’) Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Jan 20, 2020 |
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Jan 20, 2020 05:49
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King of Solomon posted:Part of my frustration is they often don't give martials any real guaranteed agency skills. A really obvious example of this is in D&D 5e, with Rogues and Wizards tackling a locked door. Rogues get a bonus to their roll against the DC to potentially unlock the door, and Wizards...get to just say "I cast knock, the door's unlocked now." No roll, it just works. Yes, it costs resources to do it, but that doesn't really make it OK, because martials do not have that capability, period. Knock isn't the best example since it also has an opportunity cost of a loud rear end noise, but yeah it's a huge issue.
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Jan 20, 2020 05:49
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Halloween Jack posted:You've never played 4e  Unironically this forum is the only place I've ever seen express a positive opinion of 4E. I also don't really wanna rehash the arguments about it though because no one is going to convince anyone else, but it is really strange.
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Jan 20, 2020 05:49
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Zaphod42 posted:Yeah I thought about mentioning stuff like that. Thing is, say you give him a captain america shield. Think of all the things cappy has done with his shield in the comics. You can come up with some pretty clever ways to bounce it off this or hit a switch or trip a guy, but its just a bunch of shield throwing stuff. Right, but my point is they don't even give them that much. If you give a fighter a Captain America shield, it's a magic item the DM created, when the reality is that should just be something a Fighter can just do, with any shield, as part of their default ability set. They don't even try to make martials interesting. mango sentinel posted:Knock isn't the best example since it also has an opportunity cost of a loud rear end noise, but yeah it's a huge issue. This is fair
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Jan 20, 2020 05:50
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