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I figure punishments like decimation are an even more terrible idea than normal when you're fighting a peer like the Persians. You may well not be able to afford the losses.
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Jan 8, 2020 16:35
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Power Khan posted:Roman or persian manner. Hm, I don't really know alot about this period, but I think they mean the way of release. I was thinking split-finger draw (English style) versus thumb draw but I honestly don't know if the Romans used the split-finger draw in the first place.
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Jan 9, 2020 02:33
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Apparently yes, but they also used shooting aids that have been called gemini rings. Idk much about those, I've heard people discussing that not all of these finds are actual rings for shooting, but some of them are. There's a couple of Sassanid depictions that show a variation of thumb release, but with a sort of glove and weird position of the index finger, etc.
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Jan 10, 2020 08:00
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Power Khan posted:Apparently yes, but they also used shooting aids that have been called gemini rings. Idk much about those, I've heard people discussing that not all of these finds are actual rings for shooting, but some of them are. So the books has in a footnote: It seems the Roman manner, taken from steppe nomads consisted of drawing the bowstring with thumb and forefinger, whereas the Persians did it with the the lower three fingers"
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Jan 11, 2020 19:25
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Could it be something as simple as Roman=uncounted, Persian=mounted.
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Jan 11, 2020 19:34
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LingcodKilla posted:Could it be something as simple as Roman=uncounted, Persian=mounted. No because this section is also talking about the cavalry in the tagmata and talking about how soldiers need to know how to fire from horseback and on the move.
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Jan 11, 2020 20:43
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that's interesting. Possibly related, but in the late empire we also see Roman cavalry equipment being influenced both by Persian gear and from the steppe nomads north of the Danube. I could see that kind of training entering military custom at the same time as the equipment
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Jan 12, 2020 01:23
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Is Persian Fire by Tom Holland a good book on Persia? Or should I go for something else? I'd really like to learn more about Persian history and I haven't really read anything other than bits and pieces in books about Greece or Rome.
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Jan 12, 2020 14:55
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Jack2142 posted:So the books has in a footnote: Did they wear any sort of hand gear when drawing with their thumbs and forefingers? That method seems like it'd be...painful and bothersome, I guess
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Jan 12, 2020 15:34
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Fader Movitz posted:Is Persian Fire by Tom Holland a good book on Persia? Or should I go for something else? I'd really like to learn more about Persian history and I haven't really read anything other than bits and pieces in books about Greece or Rome. I read it and it seemed okay. There were a couple of hilarious bits in how he presented the Persia/Greece dynamic Persia is the USA-analog superpower, Greece is the mountainous, impoverished, backwards terrorist state far away. But ultimately the book's letdown is that it focused mostly on the war with Greece that gets covered in so many other books. I read it wanting to learn more about Achaeminid Persia itself and came away disappointed, but I think part of the reason for that is that there are vanishingly few surviving Persian primary sources, so mostly things have to get pieced together from the (still rare) Greek sources.
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Jan 12, 2020 16:59
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Communist Walrus posted:Did they wear any sort of hand gear when drawing with their thumbs and forefingers? That method seems like it'd be...painful and bothersome, I guess You can wear a thumb ring but your thumb also sort of gets used to it after a while.
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Jan 12, 2020 17:37
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Jack2142 posted:So the books has in a footnote: I'm pretty sure that this one of the cases where the author doesn't understand what he's talking about.
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Jan 12, 2020 18:35
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I don't think Persian Fire was even attempting to be an exploration of Persia. It's just a narrative history of the Greek/Persian wars, and a good one. If you're looking for a book on Persia specifically, look elsewhere
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Jan 12, 2020 18:54
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Any suggestions for a book actually focused on Persia, then?
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Jan 12, 2020 20:37
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Power Khan posted:I'm pretty sure that this one of the cases where the author doesn't understand what he's talking about. Could you please elaborate on why its wrong, as someone who knows nothing of archery I am interested to know why this seems nonsensical to you? You certainly from your posts know a lot on this topic.
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Jan 12, 2020 22:23
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I honestly don't recall offhand any draw styles using the bottom three fingers, it seems a bit poor for heavy weights. There's something involving middle/ring and a specialized tab with index for guiding the arrow, Apparently, but I'm no sure I've ever seen it in motion.
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Jan 12, 2020 23:50
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Jack2142 posted:Could you please elaborate on why its wrong, as someone who knows nothing of archery I am interested to know why this seems nonsensical to you? You certainly from your posts know a lot on this topic. Specifically because thumb release doesn't work like that. What he describes is a sort of pinch draw that's depicted on some antique greek vases. It's useless for holding anything else other than light practice bows. Thumb draw with a ring looks like making a wrong boxing fist fist, with the thumb enclosed by index and middle finger (at least for a heavy warbow). There's other variations of that, but that one is the only one that reliably works for very strong bows. Apart from that, the romans used all sorts of releases, including what's today dubbed as mediterranean
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Jan 13, 2020 20:26
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"Hey babe, wanna see a Mediterranean release?" 
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Jan 15, 2020 03:36
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https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/jun/14/experience-i-killed-my-classmate-with-a-javelin
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Jan 17, 2020 11:47
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Holy poo poo I'm amazed that school didn't get in more trouble.
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Jan 17, 2020 12:23
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It's not like they put poor Sammy in a tank.
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Jan 17, 2020 13:05
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Does anyone have informative on Sub-Saharan African people in the Empire, from Roman sources and archaeology within the Empire. Any period from establishment to CE 410. I know about the archaeology and some written sources about areas outside the Empire and how they interacted, but am specifically interested on Sub-Saharan Africans within the Empire, especially Roman Britain and the Italian Peninsula.
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Jan 17, 2020 13:18
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KiteAuraan posted:Does anyone have informative on Sub-Saharan African people in the Empire, from Roman sources and archaeology within the Empire. Any period from establishment to CE 410. I know about the archaeology and some written sources about areas outside the Empire and how they interacted, but am specifically interested on Sub-Saharan Africans within the Empire, especially Roman Britain and the Italian Peninsula. I’ve got an article about this somewhere, let me see if I can dig it up from my post history Here we go. A lot of it is taking a look at the impressively racist assumptions made by moderns about the ancient world, but there’s a lot of material about actual Roman attitudes towards blacks and blackness as well. The author later expanded this into a full book, “Romans and Blacks” — I haven’t read it, but you can apparently get a used copy (with “musty odor”!) on amazon for a couple bucks. skasion fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Jan 17, 2020 |
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Jan 17, 2020 13:22
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skasion posted:“musty odor”  I think you'll find that's the sweet scent of the collected wisdom of generations seeping from the graven pages?
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Jan 17, 2020 15:45
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Kylaer posted:Any suggestions for a book actually focused on Persia, then? Ancient Persia by Matt Waters is a good general history of the Achaemenids, and I think I got recommended it in this thread. I'm not sure if it's region locked but the BBC's In Our Time also had an episode on Persepolis which you can listen to on Spotify. Don't know of any that focus on the Sassanids though.
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Jan 21, 2020 02:25
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So I'm in Rome this week. I've already got plans for a lot of the obvious stuff--touring the Mausoleum of Augustus, going up to Castel Sant'Angelo, that sort of thing, but I figured I'd lazyweb it--what's a cool place I should check out but probably haven't thought of?
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Jan 21, 2020 03:10
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Ostia, and if you have time Westia.
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Jan 21, 2020 03:43
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AFashionableHat posted:So I'm in Rome this week. I've already got plans for a lot of the obvious stuff--touring the Mausoleum of Augustus, going up to Castel Sant'Angelo, that sort of thing, but I figured I'd lazyweb it--what's a cool place I should check out but probably haven't thought of? Largo di Torre Argentina: Cat sanctuary and where Julius Caesar was murdered. National Etruscan Museum: Etruscans get overlooked. Curia Julia: Caesar's senate house, which is still in good condition since it was used as a church. Easy to overlook in the forum. The original awesome doors have been removed and are now at the Basilica of St. John Lateran. Lapis Niger: Another easy to overlook thing in the forum. Ancient, possibly pre-Roman shrine site that has a lot of myth connections, also the oldest Latin inscription was found here. Also excellent decision to be there in January, I was there in August and... I do not recommend that.
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Jan 21, 2020 03:47
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I don't know how well known they are, but first, the Baths of Caracalla. Second, the Basilica of St. Mary of the Angels and the Martyrs, first, because it was designed by Michelangelo, and second, it was the former site of the Baths of Diocletian. Also, for more ancient Roman stuff, the Palazzo Valentini. They found a bunch of ancient Roman homes underneath it, and have used visual technology to sort of recreate them. Also, while it's not ancient Roman stuff, there's the Villa Medici, which was built by the Medici and is now owned by the French government, and also the Protestant Cemetery, where Keats and Shelley are buried.
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Jan 21, 2020 04:42
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Arglebargle III posted:Ostia, and if you have time Westia. 
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Jan 21, 2020 05:52
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Arglebargle III posted:Ostia, and if you have time Westia.  Grand Fromage posted:Largo di Torre Argentina: Cat sanctuary and where Julius Caesar was murdered.   quote:National Etruscan Museum: Etruscans get overlooked. quote:Curia Julia: Caesar's senate house, which is still in good condition since it was used as a church. Easy to overlook in the forum. The original awesome doors have been removed and are now at the Basilica of St. John Lateran. quote:Also excellent decision to be there in January, I was there in August and... I do not recommend that. It's also incredibly, incredibly cheap. Boston->Zurich->Rome and back, plus six nights in a completely reasonable hotel that is literally-not-figuratively down the hill from... Epicurius posted:the Villa Medici ...which we're going to tomorrow on the way to the National Etruscan Museum. Total price, $670 per person. I might die screaming in the hotel shuttle that goes three thousand miles per hour on the way back to the airport, but I'll die happy. Epicurius posted:I don't know how well known they are, but first, the Baths of Caracalla. Second, the Basilica of St. Mary of the Angels and the Martyrs, first, because it was designed by Michelangelo, and second, it was the former site of the Baths of Diocletian. Also, for more ancient Roman stuff, the Palazzo Valentini. They found a bunch of ancient Roman homes underneath it, and have used visual technology to sort of recreate them.  I think this'll be Thursday and Friday stuff. Thanks. One of the more interesting things about this trip to me is that I can recognize stuff by name, but by sight is way harder even when I know what something looks like. Seeing things placed in context is not how Americans understand history, ffs. 
tracecomplete fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Jan 21, 2020 |
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Jan 21, 2020 15:27
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St Peters in Vatican is also great.
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Jan 21, 2020 15:31
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We also tried to go to the Mausoleum of Augustus (as I figure it's a good idea to go see it before the fascists come back) and were thwarted--it was due to be open last April, but appears not to be. But I did take my favorite and dubiously-relevant picture of all time while there so I consider it a fair trade.
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Jan 21, 2020 18:08
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For those of us who most likely won't go to Rome any time soon, there's this guy who does youtube videos of ancient & medieval places. Prowalk Tours. He has these amazing high def videos of where he went. I highly recommend, his videos are great. he just walks around and doesn't talk. It's all sights, no "HEY TRERERERE PROWALKTOUR GUY HERE FOR YOu..." kind of bullshit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=channel?UCNzul4dnciIlDg8BAcn5-cQ <-- His channel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWHr-RlJqWU <---- Roman Forum https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeApHXIiLbo <---- Palatine Hill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJeF7hDB0UA <--- Colosseum https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B54PR2kvWE <--- St peter's basilica and there is sooo much more. For those of us who can't go but really want to see the sights, thses are the video's to watch.
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Jan 21, 2020 19:06
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Grand Fromage posted:National Etruscan Museum: Etruscans get overlooked. People, if you want to look at a whole lot of pottery and then even more pottery (and, in fairness, some bronze), this is the place for you. Read a book before going though. They made the curious decision to set it up mostly geographically (so it goes Vulci, Cerveteri, Tarquinia, Veii, etc.) instead of chronologically, so you find yourself jumping back to the 6th century a lot without a lot of place-setting to ground what you're seeing; my girlfriend got a little lost and I only remembered parts of the story myself so I wasn't a ton of help. But there are some heckin' rad tombs just lifted and set right back down in the basement. The Villa Giulia in which the museum is housed is also really cool.
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Jan 22, 2020 18:24
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After bouncing off of Thucydides, I've been reading Xenophon's Hellenika and finding it a lot more engaging (though I'm keeping in mind the introduction's repeated warnings that he's both extremely biased and somewhat careless). But every so often there'll be a footnote referring to a past event described by Thucydides that sounds pretty drat cool. The part that sparked this post was Xenophon describing Theramenes' death and the footnote referring to his role in the time of the Four Hundred. Thinking back, Thucydides was mostly only boring when the narrative was on "and then an Athenian proxy polis and a Spartan proxy polis fought an inconclusive battle and both of them went home having accomplished nothing. This happened another five times this year, all of which I will describe separately". Things like Pericles rallying the Athenians when the plague came were pretty cool. So I guess my question is, is there any resource that lists the highlights of Thucydides? I feel bad for wanting to skim through the father of scholarly history but he is not an easy read
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Jan 22, 2020 20:57
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I think Xenophon is just a much more engaging author, probably because so much of what he describes is stuff he actually saw and did. Although I've only read Anabasis, so I can't comment on his other work. My impression of him and Thucydides seems similar to yours though. I listened to The History of the Peloponnesian war on audiobook and there were definitely moments when I zoned out, and it was impossible to keep track of where all the action was. Anyway here's my favorite quote from Thucydides, describing the Revolutions that beset Corcyra and many other Greek cities as the chaos of war engulfed the Hellenes. quote:The Corcyraeans, made aware of the approach of the Athenian fleet and of the departure of the enemy, brought the Messenians from outside the walls into the town, and ordered the fleet which they had manned to sail round into the Hyllaic harbour; and while it was so doing, slew such of their enemies as they laid hands on, dispatching afterwards, as they landed them, those whom they had persuaded to go on board the ships. Next they went to the sanctuary of Hera and persuaded about fifty men to take their trial, and condemned them all to death. The mass of the suppliants who had refused to do so, on seeing what was taking place, slew each other there in the consecrated ground; while some hanged themselves upon the trees, and others destroyed themselves as they were severally able. During seven days that Eurymedon stayed with his sixty ships, the Corcyraeans were engaged in butchering those of their fellow citizens whom they regarded as their enemies: and although the crime imputed was that of attempting to put down the democracy, some were slain also for private hatred, others by their debtors because of the moneys owed to them. Death thus raged in every shape; and, as usually happens at such times, there was no length to which violence did not go; sons were killed by their fathers, and suppliants dragged from the altar or slain upon it; while some were even walled up in the temple of Dionysus and died there. Squalid fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Jan 22, 2020 |
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Jan 22, 2020 21:28
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Thucydides is more of an academic writing history while The Anabasis is more like a pop history book. Plus there's the issue of translators, it has been the style for a very long time to apparently go out of your loving way to translate ancient works in the most mind numbing way possible. A lot of primary sources in translation are almost unreadable, I've dropped many. Don't feel bad about finding them boring.
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Jan 23, 2020 04:20
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 https://www.newscientist.com/article/2091213-britains-oldest-writing-found-buried-near-london-tube-station/ quote:England's Oldest Handwritten Document, dated January 8, 57
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Jan 23, 2020 04:41
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Found in the Sodden Hole?! I thought they shut that place down years ago!
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Jan 23, 2020 07:42
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