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Ardennes posted:Either way, an active unilateral decision on Chinese politics isn’t going to happen on a whim.
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Jan 22, 2020 08:02
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Duck and weave. Shuffle about. How did you get to be a Mod?
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Jan 22, 2020 08:04
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Woah woah we need a consensus that genocide is bad christ its not like you couldnt get more effort posts from those pro CCP posters from reading one of the million chinese run news outlets
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Jan 22, 2020 08:05
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2020 08:07
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sincx posted:What the gently caress? No you were deliberating creating a straw man, where as anyone who thinks the falun gong is getting genocided believes some crazy loon. This approach completely ignores the fuckton of evidence coming from elsewhere
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Jan 22, 2020 08:09
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sincx posted:What the gently caress? Yes well if you have critical thinking skills, aliens inventing computers is one thing, and China killing dissidents is another. One has happened in the past. You know, a few times. gently caress, Taiwan did too, and a few other countries a couple of times in the past. Just so you don't get butthurt about me calling out the CCP.
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Jan 22, 2020 08:14
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Falun Gong being lovely is well known but all of their beliefs- hatred of everyone who isn’t a cishet and black people - are also mainstream American white guy opinions. As far as your average China watcher is concerned they are fellow travelers.
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Jan 22, 2020 08:18
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Falun Gong being lovely is well known but all of their beliefs- hatred of everyone who isn’t a cishet and black people - are also mainstream American white guy opinions. As far as your average China watcher is concerned they are fellow travelers. Let's not forget that the CCP was all pro Falun Gong untill Frogman needed a scapegoat. Also I'm sure taking their organs will cure them of their beliefs.
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Jan 22, 2020 08:23
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But keep justifying genocides while the mods wank off
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Jan 22, 2020 08:25
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Despera posted:But keep justifying genocides while the mods wank off The only reason I’m still posting is because I am about to land in Beijing, the volunteer mods won’t save you. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 22, 2020 08:31
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:The only reason I’m still posting is because I am about to land in Beijing, the volunteer mods won’t save you. They wont save all the minorities beijing represses but I can loving try
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Jan 22, 2020 08:32
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Despera posted:They wont save all the minorities beijing represses but I can loving try I think it’s darkly ironic that you (along with the rest of the weirdo China watchers) shed unlimited tears for whackadoodles that you’ve briefly skimmed the Wikipedia page for while also possessing a rap sheet that contains contempt for nonwhites in your own country.
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Jan 22, 2020 08:47
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:I think it’s darkly ironic that you (along with the rest of the weirdo China watchers) shed unlimited tears for whackadoodles that you’ve briefly skimmed the Wikipedia page for while also possessing a rap sheet that contains contempt for nonwhites in your own country. If you could find the post where I justify killing nonwhites for their organs im all loving ears But you just posted a justification for killing people for even less. Like its 2020 these whataboutisms dont work Despera fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Jan 22, 2020 |
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Jan 22, 2020 08:48
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Despera posted:If you could find the post where I justify killing nonwhites for their organs im all loving ears I mean you people drove all discussion of minority issues out of D&D into its own ghetto, if that is any indication of how far the vaunted western tolerance for difference goes
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Jan 22, 2020 08:52
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:I mean you people drove all discussion of minority issues out of D&D into its own ghetto, if that is any indication of how far the vaunted western tolerance for difference goes But you can freely justify genocide like its nothing so yay
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Jan 22, 2020 08:53
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Nucken Futz posted:Duck and weave. Shuffle about. I have been around a long time and have seen a lot, none of this surprises me. That said, I guess my words have fallen on deaf ears. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 09:03 on Jan 22, 2020 |
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Jan 22, 2020 09:01
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2020 09:04
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sincx posted:This is the same lying, slandering bullshit these people pulled in their little coup to get rid of R Guyovich. What lies?
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Jan 22, 2020 09:06
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2020 09:07
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Really who can say what's happening to Uighurs and Falun Dafa is genocide? Their hearts live on.
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Jan 22, 2020 09:16
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Horatius Bonar posted:Really who can say what's happening to Uighurs and Falun Dafa is genocide? Their hearts live on. And eyes, and livers, and kidneys
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Jan 22, 2020 09:19
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GoutPatrol posted:And eyes, and livers, and kidneys To ensure the leaders of Glorious Proletarian Socialism live on to....Something.
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Jan 22, 2020 13:12
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Interesting to see D&D forging its own path. GBS China thread: GTFO with that genocide denial. CSPAM China thread: (eventually) GTFO with that genocide denial. D&D: Well you see there are two sides to genocide...
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Jan 22, 2020 13:36
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Atopian posted:Interesting to see D&D forging its own path. Yea its problematic when D&D will (rightfully) blanked ban all genocide denial talk....... except for China. That requires a safe space so we can hear “all sides” on the issue and engage in whataboutism. Guess we gotta tow the CCP party line!
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Jan 22, 2020 15:35
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Nucken Futz posted:Duck and weave. Shuffle about. The eternal question; D&D is the home of authoritarian-appologists and useful-idiot mods.
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Jan 22, 2020 15:38
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Ardennes posted:Yeah, these exact same subjects have been discussed to death, so unless there is a new useful information, it is time to move on. This is some fuckin' weak poo poo Ardennes. R. Guyovich even ate a ban for genocide denial.
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Jan 22, 2020 16:38
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sincx posted:What the gently caress? I mean, the problem here is twofold: First: The claims of organ harvesting don't just come from Falun Gong members, it comes from numerous human rights organizations across the world, using evidence such as analysis of the number of organs transplanted in China versus the number of organs that should be available for transplants. By arguing that we should be skeptical of claims of organ harvesting simply because Falun Gong is unreliable, you are brushing aside a lot of other evidence and organizations who have raised concerns (Up to and including the UN and World Medical Association) Second: It doesn't matter how goddamn crazy Falun Gong members are or what they believe, the fact still remains that they are a persecuted religious minority. There are living human beings who have very likely been imprisoned, tortured, and killed for doing nothing other than believing in something the Chinese government doesn't want them to believe. That is A Problem, and we should take their claims seriously regardless of whatever else they believe.
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Jan 22, 2020 17:41
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Fojar38 posted:This is some fuckin' weak poo poo Ardennes. R. Guyovich even ate a ban for genocide denial. He banned himself btw. Btw, I didn’t ban actual discussion of the topic, if you happen to notice. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Jan 22, 2020 |
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Jan 22, 2020 17:48
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Ardennes posted:Btw, I didn’t ban actual discussion of the topic, if you happen to notice. You tried to discourage it, which is obviously completely different because reasons.
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Jan 22, 2020 17:56
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Ardennes posted:He banned himself btw. Is this to be taken as a mod statement that he wouldn’t have been banned for his conduct if he hadn’t self-banned?
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Jan 22, 2020 18:07
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:You tried to discourage it, which is obviously completely different because reasons. I am attempting to discourage effortless shitposting posting on the subject, if anything an issue such as this or the Uighur issue needs to be discussed with some effort and care. It clearly hasn't been in this thread. Btw, if you want my opinion, there are studies that do show that statistically high amounts of organ harvesting continue to be conducted in Chinese prisons. However, the issue becomes when you have organizations like the Human Rights Tribunal or China Tribunal, which are not affiliated with the UN, often have an undefined background or past, and difficult to verify data. However, I don't think the Falun Gong being a right-wing/far-right organization or not itself fundamentally matters. Pirate Radar posted:Is this to be taken as a mod statement that he wouldn’t have been banned for his conduct if he hadn’t self-banned? It obviously isn't. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Jan 22, 2020 |
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Jan 22, 2020 18:16
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"Why wont you spend more time and effort debating flat earthers?" isnt a take that will save you from your lack of a spine.
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Jan 22, 2020 19:12
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The fact that data is difficult to verify is a knock on the CCP. Why is the data not transparent? The fact that the data exists is enough. Questioning methodology and interpretation is fine, but it seems you're saying because the data is suspect the whole premise must be false. People would argue about the data on a poll where the only question was "do you like bacon?" It's not a solid argument to dismiss the UN reports. It's hard not to read the pro-genocide posts as "we can't trust the goldsmiths saying Eastern European exports of gold teeth and wedding bands increased 5000% from 1939-41, and it certainly can't be linked to any disappearances." Horatius Bonar fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Jan 22, 2020 |
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Jan 22, 2020 21:35
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It is certainly a fact that China harvests the organs of death row prisoners but afaik most of the specific Falun Gong accusations wrt concentration camps or so on were disproven (or at least disputed) by the US State Department and Harry Wu. This is kinda irrelevant to the question of whether or not Falun Gong members are persecuted for their religion - which is certainly true.
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Jan 22, 2020 22:00
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Horatius Bonar posted:The fact that data is difficult to verify is a knock on the CCP. Why is the data not transparent? The question is which data you are talking about and specifically on which issue. As for execution data there is good statistical evidence that organ harvesting is likely continuing from the general population, but specific assertions from the “China Tribunal” needs to be backed by evidence. To be clear, 10-15 million Jews were liquidated in death camps and mass killings during the Holocaust. That doesn’t include the other atrocities conducted against a host of other groups and peoples. Btw you are assuming I am saying the premise must be false. It is clear that human rights abuses have taken place, but the arguement is the type and degree. Also, I don’t think the fact that Falun Gong members have been arrest en masse is controversial, a direct one to one comparison to the Holocaust is controversial. To be clear, 10-15 million Jews were liquidated in death camps and mass killings during the Holocaust. That doesn’t include the other atrocities conducted against a host of other groups and peoples. ———— Also I don’t think attacking the Falun Gong as a organization is the same thing is denying human rights abuses have been conducted against its members. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Jan 22, 2020 |
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Jan 22, 2020 22:46
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Ardennes posted:Also I don’t think attacking the Falun Gong as a organization is the same thing is denying human rights abuses have been conducted against its members. In this case the line of reasoning was literally "Falun Gong is bad for x reasons, therefore don't believe anything they say ie the human rights abuses conducted towards them" It's the same line of reasoning that fascists use to justify persecution against mainstream religions as well, particularly Judaism and Islam. Especially if you are going to highlight their most conservative forms like sinx did in his initial post on the subject and use the mere existence of those conservative forms as your justification. And considering that the CCP's justification for the ongoing Uighur genocide is to point at the existence of Islamic terrorism it's hard to not see the proxy implications of using the same logic against a different religious minority. Fojar38 fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Jan 22, 2020 |
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Jan 22, 2020 23:23
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Fojar38 posted:In this case the line of reasoning was literally "Falun Gong is bad for x reasons, therefore don't believe anything they say ie the human rights abuses conducted towards them" The issue is there is a broad assumption of intent since there is evidence of human rights abuses extents beyond the Falun Gong itself as an organization. It doesn’t help that many statements made by the Falun Gong are also again controversial and politicized. The denial of human rights abuses themselves are a different kettle of fish. Btw, if you want to create a parallel, the criticism of the ADL is not the same thing as denying the Holocaust. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Jan 22, 2020 |
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Jan 22, 2020 23:34
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Ardennes posted:The issue is there is a broad assumption of intent since there is evidence of human rights abuses extents beyond the Falun Gong itself as an organization. It doesn’t help that many statements made by the Falun Gong are also again controversial and politicized. Are you really doing a whataboutism when one side is getting genocided and the other is not? "There is a broad issue of intent because Hitler killed gypsies too". Jesus Christ Despera fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Jan 22, 2020 |
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Jan 22, 2020 23:45
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Despera posted:Are you really doing a whataboutism when one side is getting genocided and the other is not? Yeah, that doesn’t even have any relation to what I posted. I am talking about the intent of criticisms of the Falun Gong.
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Jan 23, 2020 00:01
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Ardennes posted:The question is which data you are talking about and specifically on which issue. As for execution data there is good statistical evidence that organ harvesting is likely continuing from the general population, but specific assertions from the “China Tribunal” needs to be backed by evidence. To be clear, 10-15 million Jews were liquidated in death camps and mass killings during the Holocaust. That doesn’t include the other atrocities conducted against a host of other groups and peoples. Great counter example here! So I disagree that 10-15 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust. The consensus I'm familiar with is 6 million plus. Let's say that data is "disputed" between us. I'm 100% comfortable saying the Holocaust happened and it was a genocide. You're not saying the same about the Uighurs and Falun Dafa without adding "however...." quote:
I said it seems that way. You think people are being detained and that's the limit of human rights abuses. I think people are being killed. Like, what's your definition of a genocide? If the most suspect data you've seen turned out to be true, would you call it genocide? quote:
Directly comparing anything one to one in history or politics is controversial, yes. Everything is its own event. It's an example to help you think of it differently than you do. Any discussion of a potential genocide needs to be informed by history, of which the Holocaust is a significant event. So let's say I'm not comparing them, China isn't invading other countries and killing Muslims there, and the Nazis did not ship Jewish livers to Saudi princes. But maybe there are some parallels?
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Jan 23, 2020 01:02
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