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Sampatrick posted:the cold genocide paper is much better evidence for what youre trying to say. Thank you. For people who aren't reading, the Cold Genocide is the paper I posted. And the evidence is strong, given the obvious limitations in gathering it. So give it a read and then we'll continue this discussion about evidence. E: top of page snipe it's here https://scholarcommons.usf.edu/gsp/vol12/iss1/6/ Clicking and reading it will save certain people time and effort in the long run, because instead of writing a pro-genocide post you can just not. And for the rest, spread it around as needed. Horatius Bonar fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Jan 23, 2020 |
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Jan 23, 2020 06:28
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Horatius Bonar posted:Thank you. For people who aren't reading, the Cold Genocide is the paper I posted. And the evidence is strong, given the obvious limitations in gathering it. So give it a read and then we'll continue this discussion about evidence. How is the evidence it presents strong? I was reading through it, and it cites US reports and various Falun Gong websites and not much else from what I saw. I didn't go with a fine tooth comb yet, just going to the places where it makes the claims of deaths and checking the sources. Ultimately it's a Falun Gong practitioner who's an Associate professor citing primarily a bunch of Falun Gong sources with evidence/data gathering methodology that I don't know the source of. It would be more useful for you to actually post the sources from the paper so that we can examine their evidence in turn, instead of posting something that's several steps from what is actually what we're concerned with.
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Jan 23, 2020 06:37
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LimburgLimbo posted:Ultimately it's a Falun Gong practitioner who's an Associate professor citing primarily a bunch of Falun Gong sources with evidence/data gathering methodology that I don't know the source of. It would be more useful for you to actually post the sources from the paper so that we can examine their evidence in turn, instead of posting something that's several steps from what is actually what we're concerned with. Your logic here is, essentially, "how can we believe any member of Group X that says bad things are being done to Group X?"
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Jan 23, 2020 06:40
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LimburgLimbo posted:How is the evidence it presents strong? I was reading through it, and it cites US reports and various Falun Gong websites and not much else from what I saw. I didn't go with a fine tooth comb yet, just going to the places where it makes the claims of deaths and checking the sources. the most convincing data based evidence is the extremely unusual behavior of organ donor numbers
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Jan 23, 2020 06:42
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LimburgLimbo posted:How is the evidence it presents strong? I was reading through it, and it cites US reports and various Falun Gong websites and not much else from what I saw. I didn't go with a fine tooth comb yet, just going to the places where it makes the claims of deaths and checking the sources. Strong because we'll never get an official government report saying "we killed 15,000 Falun Dafa members and 50,000 Uighurs this decade." The evidence is in the medical section regarding organs officially harvested vs. actually provided. Numbers no matchy. Why?
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Jan 23, 2020 06:45
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Well we could ask the Uighurs if this was going on but they are all in concentration camps. Very inconsiderate of them.
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Jan 23, 2020 06:46
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Fojar38 posted:Thank you for taking appropriate action.  he didn't take action, he was told to by other people.
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Jan 23, 2020 06:52
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LimburgLimbo posted:Ultimately it's a Falun Gong practitioner who's an Associate professor citing primarily a bunch of Falun Gong sources with evidence/data gathering methodology that I don't know the source of. It would be more useful for you to actually post the sources from the paper so that we can examine their evidence in turn, instead of posting something that's several steps from what is actually what we're concerned with. China systematically targets Falun Gong and Uyghurs, but they have crazy beliefs so that we can't trust that they are really being genocided Myanmar systematically targets the Rohingya, but they have crazy beliefs so that we can't trust that they are really being genocided ISIS systematically targets the Yazidis, but they have crazy beliefs so that we can't trust that they are really being genocided
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Jan 23, 2020 07:00
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Despera posted:Well we could ask the Uighurs if this was going on but they are all in concentration camps. Very inconsiderate of them. Also, we would have to take their statements with a grain of salt as they would be clearly biased, being in camps and all. Can't trust their claims of being in camps.
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Jan 23, 2020 07:00
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Despera posted:Well we could ask the Uighurs if this was going on but they are all in concentration camps. Very inconsiderate of them.
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Jan 23, 2020 07:00
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Horatius Bonar posted:"We did a phone poll of 1,000 Uighurs to see if they were in concentration camps and none of them said yes. A certain number were unreachable. Solid evidence!" "When we asked the government to comment, we were told that the Uighurs were all living happy, prosperous, and harmonious lives in an undisclosed village somewhere nearby. So clearly there's nothing to be alarmed about."
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Jan 23, 2020 07:05
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So the Chinese are persecuting two groups, one I refuse to believe and the other are all in concentration camps. Sounds like a draw favoring the CCP.
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Jan 23, 2020 07:07
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Like what's the loving conspiracy here? Uighurs and Falun Dafa are growing organs in vats and donating them to make the CCP look bad because they have an axe to grind?
Horatius Bonar fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Jan 23, 2020 |
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Jan 23, 2020 07:07
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We know China are not that great on human rights, but there's still not enough evidence to prove the numbers that genocide is the correct term that we can all agree on for their treatment of the Falun Gong and Uyghurs Looks like we will just have to post more evidence to be casually dismissed by people who have already made up their minds
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Jan 23, 2020 07:12
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LimburgLimbo posted:Associate professor Associate Dean based on a 15 second Google search.
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Jan 23, 2020 07:20
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I'm guessing quite a few of these posters dont have access to the subversive and disharmonious search engine called google.
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Jan 23, 2020 07:23
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Horatius Bonar posted:Like what's the loving conspiracy here? Uighurs and Falun Dafa are growing organs in vats and donating them to make the CCP look bad because they have an axe to grind? ~~~western media comparing CCP to nazis to sow disocntent in gong kong~~~~~~~
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Jan 23, 2020 07:23
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LimburgLimbo posted:I was reading through it, and it cites US reports and various Falun Gong websites and not much else from what I saw. I've only looked through the citations so I cant say it's a good article or not but, really? Both of those exist as citations but I'm looking at it right now and aren't the majority. It doesn't make any sense to lie about something we're all looking at, I have no idea how you're missing what's there.
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Jan 23, 2020 07:24
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The question of whether or not the Chinese state is literally killing Falun Gong members and Uyghurs is also completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not the state is conducting campaigns of repression designed around eliminating those belief systems (aka: committing genocide), a thing that the Chinese state is absolutely doing.
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Jan 23, 2020 07:25
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Despera posted:I'm guessing quite a few of these posters dont have access to the subversive and disharmonious search engine called google. Uh, anyone posting here without enduring ridiculous captcha delay bullshit has a VPN. And professional censors have open connections. So... probably irrelevant.
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Jan 23, 2020 07:44
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Wistful of Dollars posted:
I actually had a choice in the matter. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 08:16 on Jan 23, 2020 |
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Jan 23, 2020 08:08
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Ardennes posted:I actually had a choice in the matter. You claim this but I don't think the evidence is conclusive. Obviously you are a biased source and cannot be trusted.
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Jan 23, 2020 08:17
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:You claim this but I don't think the evidence is conclusive. Obviously you are a biased source and cannot be trusted. Maybe not, you can ask the other mods in QCS. Maybe get Lowtax involved to get to the root of the issue (don't do this, sounds like poo poo is going down in GBS). I will say it was a common decision either way. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 11:53 on Jan 23, 2020 |
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Jan 23, 2020 08:24
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Is Lowtax really a reliable source though? He is American after all.
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Jan 23, 2020 09:13
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Also we have posters who work for the U.S. government. Many such cases. I don't think I can trust the truthfulness of anything any of you say.
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Jan 23, 2020 09:16
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Also we have posters who work for the U.S. government. Many such cases. I don't think I can trust the truthfulness of anything any of you say. Let's just say I saw what Ardennes posted before editing two/three times and I'm not going to start poo poo because he wisely decided to back down but you're actually right on the money. Literally a cover up happening haha.
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Jan 23, 2020 09:33
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Horatius Bonar posted:Let's just say I saw what Ardennes posted before editing two/three times and I'm not going to start poo poo because he wisely decided to back down but you're actually right on the money. Literally a cover up happening haha. I mean you could always just post what saw. Go for it. Vincent Van Goatse posted:Also we have posters who work for the U.S. government. Many such cases. I don't think I can trust the truthfulness of anything any of you say. I guess you are going to need to get the tools out. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Jan 23, 2020 |
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Jan 23, 2020 09:49
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Horatius Bonar posted:Let's just say I saw what Ardennes posted before editing two/three times and I'm not going to start poo poo because he wisely decided to back down but you're actually right on the money. Literally a cover up happening haha. All he did was add a sentence.
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Jan 23, 2020 09:52
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:All he did was add a sentence. Nah nah nah, let him post what he saw or think he did etc etc. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 10:15 on Jan 23, 2020 |
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Jan 23, 2020 09:54
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Ardennes posted:I mean you could always just post what saw. Go for it. You've had time to think about it and you made the right call walking back the challenge, I just found it oddly fitting in the current discussion of evidence and coverups so I had to say something. As for the other - what's the line? "The Chinese (thread) people have not yet reached the level of development necessary for democracy" Somebody fucked around with this message at 10:03 on Jan 23, 2020 |
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Jan 23, 2020 10:00
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If you are saying the China thread should have an democratically elected IK that is a different call. If you guys want it, let’s do it. Of course, should everyone have a say or should there be a selection process? I actually would prefer if you just wouldn’t make up completely false quotes. That is just underhanded, especially if it racialized. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Jan 23, 2020 |
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Jan 23, 2020 10:04
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Ardennes posted:Yeah I didn’t post that, if you are saying the China thread should have an democratically elected IK that is a different call.
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Jan 23, 2020 10:07
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Horatius Bonar posted:Sorry that wasn't meant to be a quote from you, direct or indirect. I meant it as a reply, in reference to a common saying about why China isn't a democracy. Honestly, it sounds like you were putting words in my mouth. Are you talking about wanting a thread IK? Ardennes fucked around with this message at 10:14 on Jan 23, 2020 |
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Jan 23, 2020 10:10
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Ardennes posted:Honestly, it sounds like you were putting words in my mouth. Are you talking about wanting a thread IK? Yes it was in reply to the now-edited comment about floating the idea of some kind of vote for an IK.
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Jan 23, 2020 10:26
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Horatius Bonar posted:Yes it was in reply to the now-edited comment about floating the idea of some kind of vote for an IK. I edited it because it was premature, but if you want to proposed the idea feel free. I mean it is practically your idea at this point, up to you. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 10:36 on Jan 23, 2020 |
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Jan 23, 2020 10:29
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Ardennes posted:I edited it because it was premature, but if you want to proposed the idea feel free. I mean it is practically your idea at this point, up to you. In my view it could back fire, and I'm not sure how those things are decided upon, or what a good way of doing it would be. I feel like the chances of ending up with a genocide-denying IK here are non-zero and that's a bit too high for my tastes.
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Jan 23, 2020 10:42
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Horatius Bonar posted:In my view it could back fire, and I'm not sure how those things are decided upon, or what a good way of doing it would be. I feel like the chances of ending up with a genocide-denying IK here are non-zero and that's a bit too high for my tastes. Oh okay, it is up to you.
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Jan 23, 2020 10:48
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Do any other countries have a dedicated organ lane at airports? I figure any other place where the rare situation happens that an organ needs to be flown somewhere, there are procedures in place already to fast track them through the security apparatus. Why does China need a dedicated lane at multiple airports? Also, thank you for threadbanning peven stan it’s been a long time coming.
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Jan 23, 2020 12:52
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My understanding of the Falun Gong was that the CCP was extremely acomidating to them, until they advocated seditious messages, and then they were destroyed. They were warned of this as they inched closer to this position and they crossed the line anyway. At some point in a communist one party country (which only ever functions with barbed wire and gulags) it's suicide by cop. Extra tragic because the lay-worshippers didn't make that choice, the leadership did. I'm also not sure you can genocide a group that was founded in 1992. We're the branch devidians genocided? I realize this is entirely semantic and not a real argument, but if we are talking about Falun Gong along side persecution of the Uyghurs I think it's worth noting. In my country round WW1 there were some supreme Court rulings against the Jehova's witnesses because they wouldn't salute the flag or swear the pledge of allegiance. Some of them were murdered as a result of the ruling. Was that a genocide? Or just a standard tragedy? The destruction of the Uyghur culture is horrifying whether they are being killed or just being converted into Hans. Some of what has been posted in this thread is too shocking to contemplate, but "best case" I have still pretty well abandoned all my pro china sentiments based on it. But the Falun Gong was a threat to the state, and China does not have "freedom" - should all mankind have freedom? Should all of mankind live in a representative democracy, or are other systems valid? This should be the argument - in other government systems sedition is illegal. Is that right or wrong? Probably wrong but its a different scope then we have been discussing.
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Jan 23, 2020 18:18
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Since it has come up we are interested in getting an IK for this thread. I guess if you have suggestions pm them to Ard or another mod. I don't want there to be a big fight in here though.
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Jan 23, 2020 19:56
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