|
Ye, 4e is really badly in need of a true Retroclone (or Strike is in need of a 2nd edition) and I'm not sure what the market for something like that would be.
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2020 21:35
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 23:07 |
|
|
Good news; there's basically no sustainable market for anything in elfgames, so you too can spend 5 years working on a game, publish it, and make $30 in DriveThruRPG vouchers! 
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2020 21:54
|
|
|
Moriatti posted:Ye, 4e is really badly in need of a true Retroclone (or Strike is in need of a 2nd edition) and I'm not sure what the market for something like that would be. ABout the same as any other retclone/heartbreaker not published under the Dungeons and Dragons brand. I.e. essentially none.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2020 21:54
|
|
|
So my group of friends and I with very little TRPG experience but lots of board game experience would like to try D&D, and it sounds like combat in 4e is interesting and fun for most(all?) classes that we might want to roll up. I found the first three core rulebooks for pretty cheap and grabbed them, but I was also reading in another thread's edition war rehash that the better 4e stuff was heavily revised from the initial version and that the core books aren't great. Should I be looking for the Rules Compendium and DM's Kit as a starting point instead? Also if there are any good pre-created modules for low level that would be great to know too!
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2020 22:47
|
|
|
Unfortunately, there are no good WotC adventures for 4E that I'm aware of. As far as non-WotC adventures go, War of the Burning Sky is generally considered to be very good, though I've never played it; it's an adventure path, so designed to take you through several adventures from levels 1 to 30. For rules stuff, the Rules Compendium is definitely worth grabbing because it's just the latest version of the rules with all errata incorporated in a nice format for not very much money if you can find it. Also worth grabbing are Monster Manual 3 and the Essentials Monster Vault if you ever plan to create your own encounters. As far as the books you picked up go, they're completely fine to use. Just grab the errata from here and just look up what's changed: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/UpdateCompiled.pdf If you happen to have older Monster Manuals somewhere, you can use this to convert their stats to the MM3 and onwards format: http://blogofholding.com/?p=512 Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Jan 22, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2020 23:18
|
|
|
Lemon-Lime posted:Unfortunately, there are no good WotC adventures for 4E that I'm aware of. As far as non-WotC adventures go, War of the Burning Sky is generally considered to be very good, though I've never played it; it's an adventure path, so designed to take you through several adventures from levels 1 to 30. The Slaying Stone and Reavers of Harkenwold were both positively regarded, IIRC.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2020 23:30
|
|
|
Booyah- posted:So my group of friends and I with very little TRPG experience but lots of board game experience would like to try D&D, and it sounds like combat in 4e is interesting and fun for most(all?) classes that we might want to roll up. What classes are y'all looking at? Kind of rules of thumb: Most classes are good. Controllers, while good, can slow down the game, especially if they're strong tactically. You don't really NEED a controller, but it's something to keep an eye on. If you go without, just make sure you've got some aoe. Leaders are always a good time. Warlords rule. Classes using power points can be very effective and incredibly boring to play. The "Essentials" classes are bad. They're the ones from "Heroes Of The ____" like vampires or slayers. They stand out, usually for having dramatically fewer options. Other than that? Go to town. Warlords are a real standout class, but fighters, barbarians, bards, druids, they're all good or good enough.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2020 23:38
|
|
|
Living Forgotten Realms had a MASSIVE stash of prewritten adventures varying from the good to the terrible, but I have no idea if the site is up any more... Apparently so! http://www.livingforgottenrealms.com/ thespaceinvader posted:In short: the CALI series, the NETH series, the WATE series are all pretty decent to start off with, plus a few of the important CORE adventures that set up and foreshadow the epic campaign. Between those (and the SPEC mods related to them) you can get a solid campaign going. I'd generally advise against anything earlier than year 2 adventures and even then, only H1 and h2, probably) without updating the monster maths. Quoting myself from way earlier in the thread when I actually knew my poo poo... In short, the 4-letter codes tend to denote a particular area of the realms that the given adventures take place in; the CORE ones beinf the main LFR plot. The adventures themselves tend to be very railroady (you are hired to do a thing/you meet someone who wants you to do a thing, you do the thing, you get paid, next adventure, etc) but there's some interesting characters and stories if you look for them, and some of the more freeform ones (the CALI series in particular) are actually pretty decent. They're definitely worth mining for encounters though; having pre-generated, pre-balanced monster stats available is hugely useful, and the EPIC adventures have a range of genuinely interesting environmental effects and terrain-based traps and so on. I never actually made that 1-20 campaign though, and it's now been like 5 years since I played any of it so I never will. I have the hard copies in a cupboard somewhere though lol. E: the essentials classes aren't all *bad* it's just that a lot of them are *boring* unless (and to some, even if) you include the various options that allow access to older material. A well-built Slayer will keep up perfectly well damage-wise, but will basically do the same thing (shift-charge) every turn. A well-built knight or berserker can be a hyper-competent defender. God I miss my Knight and my Berserker  The big thing to be aware of with 4e is that it is a very combat focussed game; the combat is good, and reasonably well balanced, but as a result, it can take a long time, and the non-combat stuff is a LOT lighter and less well thought out even than other D&D editions (mostly because vastly fewer spells have explicit non-combat effects), let alone games actually designed to do non-combat well. And honestly, if you want a good small-squad combat game, Gloomhaven is Just Better. thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Jan 22, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2020 23:41
|
|
|
I would suggest sticking to PHB1 and PHB2 classes (plus the Monk from PHB3), because that's more than enough class options and you bypass the issue with psionic classes where the non-Monk ones just rely on spamming at-will powers augmented by psionic points (it's relatively balanced but very boring). For slightly more advanced DMing, it''s also worth digging up a copy of the Dark Sun campaign guide for the inherent bonus rules, which IMO improve the game a fair bit. If you do that, I would also suggest using this spreadsheet which handily rolls inherent bonuses and expertise bonuses into a single number with the normal half level progression: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sna7_x0djumZZf1qk6snlEnOWrNIPf2y21yJYK6vQAw/edit#gid=0 This was made by a goon a while ago but I forgot who, so apologies. The resulting number (use either the Total column, or 4/5 level which more or less accomplishes the same thing but with a slightly smoother power curve) replaces the PCs' to-hit modifier (before stats) entirely since it rolls up all the to-hit bonuses they would get from non-stat sources.
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2020 23:47
|
|
|
A lot of this is reposted every now and then when someone asks how to get into 4E nowadays, so maybe the OP could be updated at some point? Would be nice for it to function as a one-stop shop for "what you need to play 4E in 2020."
|
|
#
?
Jan 22, 2020 23:48
|
|
|
just a link to the LANCER thread
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2020 02:04
|
|
|
Honestly, if you don't have a specific theme in mind, Dark Sun everything and PHB 1-3 are the best starts. If you want to run the memetic D&D, PHB 1 and 2, Rules Compendium and Monster Vault are the way to go. As stated, prewritten stuff isn't great, but Madness at Gardmore Abbey owns, so probably run Slaying Stone, Orcs of Stonefang Pass and that? Tbh, writing dungeons or "converting" dungeons from older editions to 4e is pretty simple, and the Rules Compendium lays out how to do it. I like to take an old AD&D module, scan the dungeon layouts and interesting fights, then use that to construct a 4e dungeon via guidelines, adding in terrain if it doesn't exist.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2020 04:02
|
|
|
Booyah- posted:Should I be looking for the Rules Compendium and DM's Kit as a starting point instead? Rules Compendium for the basic game rules Monster Vault for all the iconic monsters PHB I & II for classes, you'll mostly want the most recent errata for these You don't strictly need more, but you might want to supplement your game with the Adventurer's Vault books for items, Martial/Arcane/Divine/Primal Power for more class options and PHB III for psionic classes. Those four books are plenty to wrap your head around first, though. I like to avoid any and all further material from the Essentials line cause the design in them kinda takes away from what I like about this game.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2020 07:03
|
|
|
Awesome, thanks for the responses! I found all of the essentials stuff except for the "Heroes of" books so I think we can go with that. What exactly changed with Monster Manual 3, and does the Essentials Monster Vault incorporate those changes? We've played a ton of Gloomhaven and are looking for something with more roleplaying, thus thought to try D&D. edit: My Lovely Horse posted:
Does that include the DM kit?
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2020 07:13
|
|
|
Booyah- posted:What exactly changed with Monster Manual 3, and does the Essentials Monster Vault incorporate those changes? MM1/2 monster HP is high and damage is low, which means every fight drags on forever and players are never really threatened or resource-taxed. MM3 and onwards cuts monster HP and ups their damage, resulting in shorter, more meaningful fights. MV was released after MM3 and uses the new stat formulas. The "MM3 on a business card" link I posted has what you need to convert all MM1/MM2 monsters to MM3+ stats.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2020 07:55
|
|
|
Lemon-Lime posted:MM1/2 monster HP is high and damage is low, which means every fight drags on forever and players are never really threatened or resource-taxed. Perfect thanks!
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2020 07:57
|
|
|
Booyah- posted:What exactly changed with Monster Manual 3, and does the Essentials Monster Vault incorporate those changes? quote:Does that include the DM kit?
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2020 11:35
|
|
|
Lemon-Lime posted:I would suggest sticking to PHB1 and PHB2 classes (plus the Monk from PHB3), because that's more than enough class options and you bypass the issue with psionic classes where the non-Monk ones just rely on spamming at-will powers augmented by psionic points (it's relatively balanced but very boring). When I initially created that spreadsheet it was because I was trying to make 4e based hacks for some sci fi ideas. While I never finished, I think I ended up concluding that I should just flatten the numbers instead. It does remain a really quick and easy reference for the base game though, since you would have to remake so much of the game in order to actually flatten its numbers. Defeatist Elitist fucked around with this message at 12:02 on Jan 23, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2020 11:59
|
|
|
Keep an eye on Amazon books show up super cheap used there all the time. I got both adventurers vaults for less then 6 shipped.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2020 13:37
|
|
|
Lemon-Lime posted:MM1/2 monster HP is high and damage is low, which means every fight drags on forever and players are never really threatened or resource-taxed. Monster damage was increased substantially at higher levels, accuracy was increased for some monsters, and defense was in some cases lowered. The biggest changes are in design philosophy, imo - solos and elites got their action economies unfucked.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2020 13:44
|
|
|
Booyah- posted:heroes of Worth noting is that the heroes of stuff contain themes which are fun bonuses Edit: now that I'm not at a red light but safe at work, they are basically optional story ties for characters that give (usually) a neat encounter minor power and some optional powers going forwards. They are not required for any kits but make characters feel a bit more of the world and I like them a lot, especially for PHB3 psionic characters since it gives them stuff beyond At-Wills and allows for some fun stuff with The Battlemind, which is actually a really neat class. Moriatti fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Jan 23, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2020 15:01
|
|
|
One of the players in my Zeitgeist campaign recently picked up this power for their Bard: Ethos of the Unwilling -Whenever you hit a creature with an attack, that creature takes a -2 penalty to its next attack roll. Looks pretty powerful on the face of it (especially if you're a class with at-will area attacks which this bard is not), but that's not the issue I have with the power. Like a lot of 4e powers, it's a pain in the rear end to track - as we gain levels, there are more and more small bonuses and penalties stacking up - we've got lots of little cubes on the map to show marking, and bloodied status already. Part of me wants to tell the player, "Instead of that, which is a pain to keep track of and everyone'll forget exists, do you just want a small bonus to damage each time you hit?" but that doesn't really stick to the theme of the power, which is defensive in nature. Is there a good substitute for little bonuses and penalties like this? The bard also has the tiefling +1 to attacks against bloodied foes, which I'm sure has been forgotten about a thousand times by now. ----- What I was considering for stuff like this would be to convert them from a "Remember to include this all the time and you get a tiny bonus" kind of power, to a "Volunteer to use this once per encounter and get a big bonus" kind of power - converting these small always-on benefits into once-per-encounter large benefits. So instead of "Whenever you hit a creature with an attack they take a -2 to their next attack roll" you might have "Once per encounter, grant the next creature you hit a -6 to their next attack roll". In the same vein, "+1 to attacks against bloodied foes" might be "Once per encounter, get a +3 on your next attack against a bloodied foe". That way you free up the players from having to track a lot of small ongoing effects in favour of a few more powerful effects. Gort fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Jan 24, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2020 13:43
|
|
|
Thinking on a tangent first of all, software like Masterplan is a good way to actually track these things and forget about less of them. You could put your players to work for tracking that kind of thing. If the bard wants that power, it's their duty to keep an eye on those creatures for a round and interject with "-2" when you make its next attack roll. Equivalent substitutes would include dealing less damage or giving defense bonuses to allies instead, but none of that strikes me as easier to track and it subtly changes how good the power is. Like you can stack that -2 to enemy attacks with a +2 bonus to defense to arrive at a -4 total offset, but stacking two +2 defense bonuses would be more limited.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2020 14:11
|
|
|
My Lovely Horse posted:Thinking on a tangent first of all, software like Masterplan is a good way to actually track these things and forget about less of them. Ideally, I don't really want to involve software at the table - I kinda like running from paper and books, though I have a tablet I've used in the past. Wouldn't I still need to add and remove modifiers to the software as and when they became active? This kinda feels like just moving the tracking from physical tokens to non-physical electronic notes, which doesn't really solve the issue. quote:You could put your players to work for tracking that kind of thing. If the bard wants that power, it's their duty to keep an eye on those creatures for a round and interject with "-2" when you make its next attack roll. The players do this already. I don't think anyone at the table particularly enjoys it, though. That's the core of the issue and why I want to reduce the number of things to track. Gort fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Jan 24, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2020 14:37
|
|
|
Yeah that's one of the struggles of 4e combat, and my best advice is to: (1) Add as many visual cues as possible on the battle map. We used a combination of Alea Tools magnets of many different colors, plus soda rings of several different colors as well. We would just say "this purple here is a -2 to attacks." and (2) Make the conditions a player lays down that player's responsibility. You have your hands full managing the world; the least they can do is remember the -2 they dinged onto some dude. I ran the full Zeitgeist campaign all the way to level 30, and while thank god nobody played a controller at high levels, there were still just a lot of tokens on that map. Masterplan is great, though, if you can find it. I didn't end up using it for the ZG campaign, but used it and loved it for my Dark Sun campaign. In the former, I was running a premade adventure and it would have been extra work to put the stats into the program. For the latter, I was making my own, and authoring straight out of the application.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2020 14:52
|
|
|
Masterplan allows you to make a list of effects you can easily pick from but essentially yeah you would have to add effects as combat develops. It's really quick though, it calculates stuff like defense penalties automatically and it lets effects end automatically at the appropriate time, it's very handy. 4E is kind of the D&D where you track stuff and make tiny bonuses stack up. It's not easy to get around that. Converting things into tokens, as it were, for a big effect later sounds like a good approach, but I'd be worried that the bigger effect might already exist in the game and turn out to be higher level, or that I'm giving out better bonuses than even higher level abilities provide, or that I exchange PCs' small "always on" bonuses for big one-time bonuses they could have gotten anyway (and stacked with the small stuff).
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2020 14:55
|
|
|
The Masterplan site appears to be down and gives security warnings.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2020 14:56
|
|
|
Gort posted:The Masterplan site appears to be down and gives security warnings. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9qwm-rNX9YEU0JkTk8ySjR3azg/view?usp=drivesdk
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2020 14:58
|
|
|
Thanks! Having taken a look at it though, I may not actually use it for my Zeitgeist campaign. It looks (as you said) like a lot of work to import stuff from the pre-written adventure (especially as Zeitgeist includes a bunch of rules that are written differently to normal 4e D&D) to the application. Gort fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Jan 24, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2020 15:02
|
|
|
I personally track stuff in person much lower tech... I use index cards for initiative and write down effects for creatures on their cards and know the initiative count it would end. I've also used spell effect markers to some effect as well, though at higher levels that's rough.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2020 16:19
|
|
|
I did a 1-30 War of the Burning Skies on fantasy grounds. I knew my character inside-out, forwards to backwards and like hell am I trying to keep track of all the modifiers. Had a blast, but I'm leaning towards "if you're above level 3, start automating." It sucks, but there's just too much stuff going on. And the more people go "oh wait I forgot this bit", the longer it takes, and the players will either mentally drift from turns taking forever or sometimes just flat out getting mentally worn down. And that makes THEIR turn longer because they weren't paying attention and now they're having to figure out "what's happening and wait could I have used my immediate on your turn because then I'd have +2 right now so I'd want to use my action point but I probably should move here because then I could flank but wait is this guy still dazed because that means I don't need to shift but oh yeah isn't someone taking ongoing damage what's everyone's health at because I can let you roll a save but if that's you then I need to pass THIS guy is that guy still using the damage aura but I used a skill to add to my movement is that over at the beginning or end of this turn but I could go around this guy here because he might be marked so can we go over who's marked currently since that would mean the fighter could shield push so do you still have your immediate interrupt because-" If there's a single weakness of 4e, it's that there was never an official set of tools for running the game.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2020 21:31
|
|
|
I found that a good way to track multiple status effects on enemies in D&D4e was to get a bag of something like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/150981075595 and hang them off enemy models when status effects got attached.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2020 21:55
|
|
|
Whybird posted:I found that a good way to track multiple status effects on enemies in D&D4e was to get a bag of something like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/150981075595 and hang them off enemy models when status effects got attached. Or if you want a cheap/free solution, you can pull the rings off plastic soda bottles and use those.
|
|
#
?
Jan 24, 2020 23:05
|
|
|
In paper just stack on as many visual indicators as you can, I know you can have dozens in a game but if you don't want to forget things this is pretty much the only way. And you still have to remember when to remove them. In this case I would make the player a bunch of -2 att tokens (or laminate some generic ones that can be erased and reused for other things) and tell them to apply them when they hit and remove them when they expire. e: another solution might be a more complex initiative tracker that lists conditions next to the characters. Idk what your groups current solution is but this would mimic the function of the digital initiative trackers like in Fantasy Grounds or Roll20
|
|
#
?
Jan 25, 2020 17:44
|
|
|
TheDemon posted:e: another solution might be a more complex initiative tracker that lists conditions next to the characters. Idk what your groups current solution is but this would mimic the function of the digital initiative trackers like in Fantasy Grounds or Roll20 I still stan index cards for in person initiative. As for digitally, on Roll20 I use the status markers and on Fantasy Grounds... It's automated! Which owns.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2020 03:24
|
|
|
Yea, I used to sing the praises of Fantasy Grounds for all sorts of RPGs, but having now played a lot of less well-known stuff I no longer suggest that as my go-to. However for 4th (and 5th I guess) edition DnD, it's unbeatable, and I'd never play is again without that, even at the table.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2020 03:30
|
|
|
Ye, even then, Roll20 is really easy for players so it depends on the party for me tbh.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2020 03:34
|
|
|
Does Fantasy Grounds have a good character generator/tracker? It seems like no longer being able to access DDI I just played through a simple combat scenario with a friend and we loved it, I think this is going to work perfectly.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2020 03:51
|
|
|
Booyah- posted:Does Fantasy Grounds have a good character generator/tracker? It seems like no longer being able to access DDI It doesnt have a character creation aspect like it does for 5th edition, so you still need to use the books/compendium/offline character builder for the rules side of character creation.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2020 03:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 23:07 |
|
|
Another thing I encountered was monsters with 110 HP, who regenerate 2 HP per turn. At a point where an at-will hit is for about 20 HP. Why even bother tracking that, just give them 120 HP and be done with it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2020 15:35
|
|