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The most prominent transwoman in MMA lost by TKO in a pretty lopsided match so the idea of her having an unfair advantage is kind of farcical in it's face. I don't know if that was before or after the Rogan quote or if he's admitted or understood he was wrong, I assume he hasn't. To me he just seems like a dumbass who needs things explained to him. That's probably overly generous. In general though I would like to attract more dumbasses who need things explained to them, so that we can explain things to them.
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Jan 24, 2020 19:48
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gandlethorpe posted:You need to convince 60+ million people to vote for you to become president. Not all those people will be perfectly unproblematic, but it's foolish to write them off as unteachable. No one's born having all the correct opinions after all. Sanders welcoming Roganites is more a slippery slope for them to move left than it is for him to move right. Yeah reaching across the aisle and getting Rogans vote isn’t the same as the Joe Biden/Clinton style reaching across the aisle. In Sanders’ case he is not selling trans rights down the river so he can get M4A votes from transphobes. He’s selling a complete package that he hasn’t compromised on from the day he launched his campaign. It’s the transphobes deciding their feelings about trans people aren’t important compared to the other work Bernie is doing and compromising their position to get the other goodies the Bernie camp is offering. He’s been selling the same package and now you got unexpected customers. This is what you want. This is not gonna set back trans rights. Heck I bet there’s tons of people in this very thread who don’t really understand transpeople, their struggles or why we suddenly have a debate on whether or not gender should be non-binary because they spent their entire lives in a bubble where they never had that exposure. How do you even ask the right questions to educate yourself without being pidgeonholed in with the nazis?
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Jan 24, 2020 19:49
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Gripweed posted:speaking of which, I'm beginning to wonder if Steyer entered the race so he could hang out with Bernie.
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Jan 24, 2020 19:50
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oxsnard posted:Yeah, which is why I rarely wade in. I'm not trying to hand wave it away, but like, people are generally Transphobic. It sucks and I hate it. But its reality, and I think it's important that to point out the differences between the "execute all queers" camp and the "but muh sports integrity" camp. The former is unredeemable, and the latter can get caught up. It's how gay rights became commonplace This is more or less my stance as well. How many people in 2004 were like "I dunno but I'm OK with Civil Unions I guess" and where are those same people now on marriage equality? At the same time, this sort of detached "yes these people will come around in 15 years" viewpoint is obviously coming from the place of privilege and probably harder to feel that way when your life is in literal danger from bigots. I'm 100% behind people legitimately upset by this.
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Jan 24, 2020 19:50
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Ruzihm posted:Steyer go on chapo He probably would if they reached out to him. Or if his people reached out to Chapo. Virgil loves interviewing candidates
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Jan 24, 2020 19:52
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Hellblazer187 posted:This is more or less my stance as well. How many people in 2004 were like "I dunno but I'm OK with Civil Unions I guess" and where are those same people now on marriage equality? At the same time, this sort of detached "yes these people will come around in 15 years" viewpoint is obviously coming from the place of privilege and probably harder to feel that way when your life is in literal danger from bigots. I'm 100% behind people legitimately upset by this. agreed. Luckily, Bernie Sanders was running on a "full civil rights and health benefits for trans people" platform before the Rogan endorsement, and he still is even after! Also, I'm pretty sure Rogan would agree with that as well, so the distinction is important
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Jan 24, 2020 19:55
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Acute Grill posted:I'm beginning to wonder if Steyer entered the race so he could hang out with Bernie. I still think he's in the race to be a spoiler for Bernie, none of his mailers in South Carolina that I've been getting promote the issues that Bernie is running on except for a general environmentalist position. Hell a third of the space on a recent mailers I received was about him being a good businessman that would be good on economic issues. He's most likely looking to take votes away from Biden.
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Jan 24, 2020 19:55
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John Wick of Dogs posted:The most prominent transwoman in MMA lost by TKO in a pretty lopsided match so the idea of her having an unfair advantage is kind of farcical in it's face. I don't know if that was before or after the Rogan quote or if he's admitted or understood he was wrong, I assume he hasn't. Media loves to signal boost anytime a trans person wish a sport as “is this fair?” when the numbers show it is, they’re usually just cherry picking specific times and acting like it’s the majority. It’s why a lot of attacks now are “men are becoming women to put women down even further”
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Jan 24, 2020 19:55
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Hellblazer187 posted:This is more or less my stance as well. How many people in 2004 were like "I dunno but I'm OK with Civil Unions I guess" and where are those same people now on marriage equality? At the same time, this sort of detached "yes these people will come around in 15 years" viewpoint is obviously coming from the place of privilege and probably harder to feel that way when your life is in literal danger from bigots. I'm 100% behind people legitimately upset by this. We're not even 8 years out from the first official support for basic LGBTQ rights like marriage by democratic leadership. It's encouraging that things have moved fast enough that people are ready to hold politicians to a higher standard on issues that matter to people's safety and dignity.
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Jan 24, 2020 19:58
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Minor point because the discussion has been pretty good overall but please try to use trans as an adjective, i.e. "trans people" "trans women" etc. instead of mashing them together into one word That's all I have to say that hasn't been said a bunch already, namaste (directed at no one in particular)
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Jan 24, 2020 19:59
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For fucks sakes. Rogan's vote is exactly as good as that of anybody else in his state. Even if he is the absolute biggest piece of poo poo on the planet, his vote still spends just as well. loving use him and then consign him to the pages of history. It isn't like Bernie is going to offer him a cabinet position. I get that this is a literal non-issue that stupid people are hammering on for the sake of trying to generate a controversy that they can dunk on, but goddamn
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Jan 24, 2020 19:59
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when it comes down to the Rogan/Bernie thing everyone has to agree that people are capable of great change especially if they are given the teaching and space to do so. People like Rogan and his vast following of young men can be taught the right ideas considering most of them have never been confronted with the humanity of a trans person. Meeting someone and recognizing they are a fellow human being deserving of respect and dignity just like oneself is a very powerful moment. Getting behind someone like Bernie might make that happen for these people, we just need to give them the chance. e:also change the things you can and accept what you can't. There are some people itt getting twisted up.
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Jan 24, 2020 20:00
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also, I think it's important to note there's a big loving difference between people discussing rogan's past in context of his endorsement and blue checkmarks on twitter saying "THATS IT BERNIE IS CANCELLED NOW"
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Jan 24, 2020 20:02
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gandlethorpe posted:You need to convince 60+ million people to vote for you to become president. Not all those people will be perfectly unproblematic, but it's foolish to write them off as unteachable. No one's born having all the correct opinions after all. Sanders welcoming Roganites is more a slippery slope for them to move left than it is for him to move right. No one in this thread is saying this.
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Jan 24, 2020 20:04
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There's some noise from disingenuous lanyards who want to use this as a wedge and try to dampen enthusiasm for Bernie. There's also some people who are legitimately upset about Bernie retweeting this. Ignore the first group, but hear what the second group is saying.
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Jan 24, 2020 20:07
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Rogan has incredible trust from a demographic that is absolutely not in the DNC's wheelhouse and could easily expand their voting base a bunch. He's a pile of garbage but I have a hard time seeing this as anything but a huge win for Bernie.
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Jan 24, 2020 20:20
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Doctor Jeep posted:jesus christ how can you be this disingenuous, yes it is different and you know it's different It's a political calculation to maximize Sanders' appeal and maybe get some people who might not have otherwise voted for him or been receptive to his message, sorry if you don't think he (or his campaign) are capable of the same sort of strategy as other candidates albeit operating from a position of trying to pull those people to him rather than going to where they are. Regardless, should he win those same chuds and bigots will be seen as part of his coalition and energy that could have been spent pushing for significant left policies will have to be wasted on educating them about the humanity of marginalized people and/or convincing them that said marginalized people should also reap the benefits of those policies. No one is saying Sanders is cancelled or whatever. No one is saying that Rogan listeners are by and large irredeemable, although I imagine some of them are. But the lift of educating and converting those people is going to be mainly shouldered by the most at risk and vulnerable because that's how it always loving works and those same groups are currently expected to just eat poo poo about their feelings about this endorsement for the sake of the (eventual) win. Yeah people have to grow and change and whatever but the rush to somehow make Joe Rogan and his fascist, bigot enabling platform completely unaccountable for their part in reinforcing the status quo where trans people and other marginalized groups face violence and dehumanization every single day is just gross.
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Jan 24, 2020 20:23
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moths posted:"Transphobe" has about as much non-impact as "problematic" now because it's used for everyone from incorrect pronoun users to hate-criminals. People who refuse to use correct pronouns are transphobes though.
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Jan 24, 2020 20:24
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Mat Cauthon posted:Chasing possible converts from the chud/bigot demographic is no different than liberals chasing down the mythical "independent voter" and it's loving gross that the humanity of transpeople and minorities is apparently an acceptable price for the ephemeral hope that some portion of Joe Rogan's viewership shows up for Bernie and then also expect minorities and marginalized people to be okay with being in a coalition with those same people. You're not "in a coalition". You're just voting for the same person. quote:Regardless, should he win those same chuds and bigots will be seen as part of his coalition and energy that could have been spent pushing for significant left policies will have to be wasted on educating them about the humanity of marginalized people and/or convincing them that said marginalized people should also reap the benefits of those policies. I honestly don't understand what "energy" you're talking about here that's being used to "educate" them. Your argument seems to rely on some quantifiable aspect that's being traded off but it's all nebulous and ill-defined. Xombie fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Jan 24, 2020 |
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Jan 24, 2020 20:25
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VitalSigns posted:Imo, in this case it is worth it, because Rogan is already one of the more popular podcasts out there with millions of followers, Nah man, Rogan is just a guy who used to be on NewsRadio
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Jan 24, 2020 20:27
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I think all of this is great for Bernie. There's a bunch of people who don't feel any kind of resentment towards minorities in the sense that they don't harbor any of the old bigotries against them, but don't consider themselves aligned with the online spaces where they're likely to get hammered for "microaggressions" (probably by someone who is an ally no less of a minority than they are) and sees the discourse of woke issues as a minefield that's been designed to make them look bad. So the fact that he's getting grumblings from that corner of the movement, yet has an outstanding policy on LGBT issues, is actually kind of perfect.
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Jan 24, 2020 20:29
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Ague Proof posted:
With the exception of repeat offenders or severe injury/death cases, most drunk driving cases are some type of misdemeanor rather than felonies. Otherwise mass incarceration would a lot more massive because a huge percentage of the population has a DWI conviction. yronic heroism fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Jan 24, 2020 |
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Jan 24, 2020 20:30
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empty whippet box posted:People who refuse to use correct pronouns are transphobes though. Yeah this is like complaining about the racist label because some racists just think we shouldn’t hire black people and some racists think we need exterminate entire races. That doesn’t make the person who only hires white people not a racist.
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Jan 24, 2020 20:33
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Here’s two different points of view as to why Rogan’s endorsement is a positive. I happen to agree with Coffin’s point more. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJKxmMAOZJ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-DQZR5M1CY
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Jan 24, 2020 20:34
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Xombie posted:I honestly don't understand what "energy" you're talking about here that's being used to "educate" them. Your argument seems to rely on some quantifiable aspect that's being traded off but it's all nebulous and ill-defined. Really because several other people have talked about the need to educate chuds and bigots ITT: ManBoyChef posted:when it comes down to the Rogan/Bernie thing everyone has to agree that people are capable of great change especially if they are given the teaching and space to do so. People like Rogan and his vast following of young men can be taught the right ideas considering most of them have never been confronted with the humanity of a trans person. Meeting someone and recognizing they are a fellow human being deserving of respect and dignity just like oneself is a very powerful moment. Getting behind someone like Bernie might make that happen for these people, we just need to give them the chance. Kraftwerk posted:Heck I bet there’s tons of people in this very thread who don’t really understand transpeople, their struggles or why we suddenly have a debate on whether or not gender should be non-binary because they spent their entire lives in a bubble where they never had that exposure. How do you even ask the right questions to educate yourself without being pidgeonholed in with the nazis? Did you make it a point to obtusely not understand their use of the same terminology, or is it only hard to understand when someone is disagreeing with you?
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Jan 24, 2020 20:34
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The good news is that evidence shows tribal affiliation drives views on issues. So if Bernie brings Rogan types into the Democratic fold, it should accelerate acceptance of trans rights issues. Trip report, I went to a Bernstorm event. I had to leave before I could talk to people, but it was an energetic room. Hard to imagine a room full of Biden supporters cheering like that about, well I don't know what about. I don't have time to bus up to Iowa or anything but at least I learned how to use the app.
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Jan 24, 2020 20:40
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the_steve posted:For fucks sakes. Rogan's going to take up Arnold's mantle of Presidential fitness Czar. Hope you had a fun winter break kids, because now everyone is doing 3 hours of hot yoga, BJJ, and kettlebells. Then you're gonna run hills barefoot before it's time for your cryo therepy.
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Jan 24, 2020 20:40
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Mat Cauthon posted:Really because several other people have talked about the need to educate chuds and bigots ITT: There is no "energy" being misspent in what they are talking about. The problem here is that you seem to not want to consider this a case of exactly what it is: someone with bad opinions coming around to new ideas simply by listening to the same things you are. You are casting it as something extra being done, not them. They are talking about advocating for change, and being willing to welcome those who are convinced by it. Xombie fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Jan 24, 2020 |
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Jan 24, 2020 20:40
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We have been assigned an out of state volunteer to host via our local DSA (Iowa City) chapter. They get here on Wednesday, leave day after caucus. Also I donated another $27 because while Rogan himself has said and done lovely things, redemption has to be possible for humans, and they're joining our franchise, not the other way around, and we need to pull people into the movement for them to recognize that not only their material wants can be political, but that they can learn to care about others who have unmet needs too. We need to help them be ready to stand up for somebody besides themselves.
selec fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Jan 24, 2020 |
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Jan 24, 2020 20:44
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Xombie posted:There is no "energy" being misspent in what they are talking about. The problem here is that you seem to not want to consider this a case of exactly what it is: someone with bad opinions coming around to new ideas simply by listening to the same things you are. You are casting it as something extra being done, not them. They are talking about advocating for change, and being willing to welcome those who are convinced by it. This exactly. It's not like the CHUDier Rogan fans are going to follow him over to Bernie anyway. It's mostly going to be disaffected young people who don't traditionally turn out to vote, but who are looking for an ideology outside of the mainstream neoliberal consensus.
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Jan 24, 2020 20:45
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Failed Imagineer posted:Warren team is already spinning her upcoming destruction in Iowa Are they saying that they don't have a presence in California or Texas? How the hell do they plan to win when they're willing to give up that many delegates on Super Tuesday?
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Jan 24, 2020 20:48
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Mat Cauthon posted:It's a political calculation to maximize Sanders' appeal and maybe get some people who might not have otherwise voted for him or been receptive to his message, sorry if you don't think he (or his campaign) are capable of the same sort of strategy as other candidates albeit operating from a position of trying to pull those people to him rather than going to where they are. Regardless, should he win those same chuds and bigots will be seen as part of his coalition and energy that could have been spent pushing for significant left policies will have to be wasted on educating them about the humanity of marginalized people and/or convincing them that said marginalized people should also reap the benefits of those policies. people keep saying this about Rogan's show and I don't get it. I don't listen to his show at all but the limited interaction I've had with it is people who are already national figures. he didn't make these people famous or notable; mainstream corporate media did that. why are we pretending Joe Rogan is responsible for spreading these already incredibly normal American opinions? should he have these people on his show? I don't really care because I don't watch, I certainly wouldn't have them on my show. I don't know how he decides who should be on but looking at it, he has a wide variety of guests. on your first point, do you think there should be no effort to teach people? this is a zero sum game, either their worst urges are catered by the right or there's space for them to learn and grow. there's no reason why that nebulous "energy" has to be devoted to one or the other when both things can be done simultaneous and aren't necessarily different work at all. if you want to have an exclusive club of people who know the right things to say and believe then you're never going to have power to actually change anything. Joe Rogan isn't moving Bernie's platform but he's a very popular figure who might have sway on potential voters. that's all it is.
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Jan 24, 2020 20:49
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Mat Cauthon posted:Really because several other people have talked about the need to educate chuds and bigots ITT: I dont care if people disagree with me. I think a lot of the people like Joe Rogan just have never really dealt with any trans person in any significant way and they have preconceived notions of what they are like from other people that also have never met a trans person. I think if given the chance they could pick up some compassion and understanding. like I said. People are capable of change. Just gotta give them the chance to. e: I have never watched anything that joe rogan has been on but I have seen a few clips. Maybe I am wrong but I really wouldn't be able to tell because I am not familiar with him at all. ManBoyChef fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Jan 24, 2020 |
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Jan 24, 2020 20:51
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Xombie posted:There is no "energy" being misspent in what they are talking about. The problem here is that you seem to not want to consider this a case of exactly what it is: someone with bad opinions coming around to new ideas simply by listening to the same things you are. You are casting it as something extra being done, not them. They are talking about advocating for change, and being willing to welcome those who are convinced by it. It is disingenuous to pretend that there isn't more work to be done educating someone about why minorities and trans people are humans with the same rights and needs as them when their starting point is...at best not being aware of that and at worst actively opposing it for various reasons. Majorian posted:This exactly. It's not like the CHUDier Rogan fans are going to follow him over to Bernie anyway. It's mostly going to be disaffected young people who don't traditionally turn out to vote, but who are looking for an ideology outside of the mainstream neoliberal consensus. Supporting socialist policies (like better wages or a stronger social safety net) is not mutually exclusive from having harmful beliefs about minorities and being convinced of the former is no guarantee that the latter will go away.
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Jan 24, 2020 20:51
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Failed Imagineer posted:Nah man, Rogan is just a guy who used to be on NewsRadio Yes both are correct What is your point.
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Jan 24, 2020 20:53
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Mat Cauthon posted:It is disingenuous to pretend that there isn't more work to be done educating someone about why minorities and trans people are humans with the same rights and needs as them when their starting point is...at best not being aware of that and at worst actively opposing it for various reasons.
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Jan 24, 2020 20:53
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Joe Rogan is going to exist where you like him or not. His fanbase is going to be out there no matter what you think or do. Have your personal stuff against him and that's fine, he's a loving dumbass who deserves to be dunked on. Looking at "this hurts Sanders because the endorsement" is loving stupid. Period. https://twitter.com/spookperson/status/1220737166969491457
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Jan 24, 2020 20:53
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this is the first step at reaching a large portion of lumpenproletariat voters
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Jan 24, 2020 20:53
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nearly killed em! posted:people keep saying this about Rogan's show and I don't get it. I don't listen to his show at all but the limited interaction I've had with it is people who are already national figures. he didn't make these people famous or notable; mainstream corporate media did that. why are we pretending Joe Rogan is responsible for spreading these already incredibly normal American opinions? should he have these people on his show? I don't really care because I don't watch, I certainly wouldn't have them on my show. I don't know how he decides who should be on but looking at it, he has a wide variety of guests.. He might be responsible for their rise to prominence but he doesn't have to give them a much larger platform to spread their views and be exposed to people who might be receptive to their message because the most popular podcaster in the world joked around with them. nearly killed em! posted:on your first point, do you think there should be no effort to teach people? this is a zero sum game, either their worst urges are catered by the right or there's space for them to learn and grow. there's no reason why that nebulous "energy" has to be devoted to one or the other when both things can be done simultaneous and aren't necessarily different work at all. ManBoyChef posted:I dont care if people disagree with me. I choose to see the value in everyone and give people the chance to be better people. There are definitely people with no redeeming qualities and they are not deserving of the sweat off our armpits if they are dying of thirst but thats rare. Who is doing the educating? The same (mostly) cishet white people who complain about their racist, homophobic, transphobic, etc relatives and yet somehow can't ever seem to find a way to convince them why their beliefs are wrong year after year? Color me skeptical. theflyingorc posted:I don't see how Rogan supporting Sanders changes that. Those same people ALREADY needed to be educated before and after the endorsement, but now there's opportunity. You seem to be claiming that things were better before there was the opportunity to educate? It's as much a burden to educate as an opportunity and I don't think the majority of people in this country are up to the task, however well-meaning.
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Jan 24, 2020 20:54
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overmind2000 posted:Are they saying that they don't have a presence in California or Texas? How the hell do they plan to win when they're willing to give up that many delegates on Super Tuesday? Because Warren isn't trying to win, she's trying to torpedo bernie. I'm telling you, everything she is doing and has done is inconsistent with the idea that she wants to win the election and consistent with the idea that she is only there to try to stop Bernie. Same is true for everyone including biden. The dnc's goal is to get four more years as the opposition party.
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Jan 24, 2020 20:55
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