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New page pup  Mat Cauthon posted:It's as much a burden to educate as an opportunity and I don't think the majority of people in this country are up to the task, however well-meaning. I'm confused, are you saying we should just hope the ignorant figure it out for themselves? MixMasterMalaria fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Jan 24, 2020 |
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Jan 24, 2020 20:56
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Mat Cauthon posted:It is disingenuous to pretend that there isn't more work to be done educating someone about why minorities and trans people are humans with the same rights and needs as them when their starting point is...at best not being aware of that and at worst actively opposing it for various reasons. It's not disingenuous, because like I said, you can't actually define the work being done. You can't quantify what's been traded off. If the goal of your movement is not to convince people you're right, I'm not sure what the goal of your movement even is. If convincing people you're right is somehow harmful to your movement, then yes, you've completely and totally lost me. That doesn't make any sense. Xombie fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Jan 24, 2020 |
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Jan 24, 2020 20:58
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New York Times, New Yorker, Atlantic etc... have all given platforms to alt-righters. Why is Joe Rogan the focus instead of these larger and much more powerful institutions
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Jan 24, 2020 20:58
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Mat Cauthon posted:Supporting socialist policies (like better wages or a stronger social safety net) is not mutually exclusive from having harmful beliefs about minorities and being convinced of the former is no guarantee that the latter will go away. No, but this is an explicitly anti-racist, anti-transphobic, anti-xenophobic, anti-misogynistic, etc, movement that at least some of them are joining. Those of us who are in the movement will do our best to educate and guide new members, and will police within the movement as necessary. As a white cis/het dude, I see that as part of my duty, since I held really bad views myself once not so long ago, and I know I'm not the only one who sees things that way. This strikes me as a really productive thing I and others can be doing for social justice.  Mat Cauthon posted:Who is doing the educating? The same (mostly) cishet white people who complain about their racist, homophobic, transphobic, etc relatives and yet somehow can't ever seem to find a way to convince them why their beliefs are wrong year after year? Color me skeptical. Disaffected young people who are alienated from mainstream politics are not the same audience as your racist uncle who you see once a year at Thanksgiving. Come on dude.
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Jan 24, 2020 20:59
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Mat Cauthon posted:He might be responsible for their rise to prominence but he doesn't have to give them a much larger platform to spread their views and be exposed to people who might be receptive to their message because the most popular podcaster in the world joked around with them. who is doing the educating? hopefully people within the trans community and those that love and care for them.
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Jan 24, 2020 21:00
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Asema posted:Joe Rogan is going to exist where you like him or not. His fanbase is going to be out there no matter what you think or do. Have your personal stuff against him and that's fine, he's a loving dumbass who deserves to be dunked on. Looking at "this hurts Sanders because the endorsement" is loving stupid. Period. This is what we're saying.
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Jan 24, 2020 21:00
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MixMasterMalaria posted:I'm confused, are you saying it's not worth the energy it takes to move people out of transphobic viewpoints? I'm saying that it is a huge lift to educate people out of their harmful beliefs - one that is absolutely worth it. However actually accomplishing that, beyond teaching people what things not to say, is extremely difficult. Even the most well-meaning people don't really know how to do it. So the burden falls to marginalized people to teach everybody else about their own humanity and needs, which is a drain on their time and energy that could be spent advocating for their needs (within the larger policy agenda) or just not having to do that. This is not some personal hobby horse - there are plenty of studies that show that in professional environments the majority of "diversity" training falls to minority staff, who are thus burdened with doing their own jobs and also teaching their coworkers how to not cause an HR violation. The people saying that the Rogan thing is great because it is an opportunity to educate people are more than likely not the ones going to be doing the teaching, so to me it's a poo poo rationalization that just demonstrates how easy it is to pivot back to a pretty lovely tendency in mainstream politics - justifying converting chuds and bigots in favor of a larger victory while overlooking the harm that has been done and somehow expecting that things will just work out, with little concern for how marginalized people who are being treated as superfluous to the process actually feel about it. Majorian posted:No, but this is an explicitly anti-racist, anti-transphobic, anti-xenophobic, anti-misogynistic, etc, movement that at least some of them are joining. Those of us who are in the movement will do our best to educate and guide new members, and will police within the movement as necessary. As a white cis/het dude, I see that as part of my duty, since I held really bad views myself once not so long ago, and I know I'm not the only one who sees things that way. This strikes me as a really productive thing I and others can be doing for social justice. Do you think disaffected young people are somehow immune from racism and bigotry? You c'mon. Phi230 posted:New York Times, New Yorker, Atlantic etc... have all given platforms to alt-righters. Why is Joe Rogan the focus instead of these larger and much more powerful institutions Did they all endorse Sanders? Anyway I'll drop it, whatever. PM me if you want to discuss it further since the TGRS is apparently dead.
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Jan 24, 2020 21:03
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Mat Cauthon posted:It's as much a burden to educate as an opportunity and I don't think the majority of people in this country are up to the task, however well-meaning.
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Jan 24, 2020 21:03
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You know it's kinda suspicious that some bad people might vote for Sanders, when the Democrats declare they are the party of good people and look I'm all for the improvement of things but if bad people benefit as much as good people I'm just pointing out that backstabbing plan to subsidize badness.
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Jan 24, 2020 21:06
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Mat Cauthon posted:I'm saying that it is a huge lift to educate people out of their harmful beliefs - one that is absolutely worth it. However actually accomplishing that, beyond teaching people what things not to say, is extremely difficult. Even the most well-meaning people don't really know how to do it. So the burden falls to marginalized people to teach everybody else about their own humanity and needs, which is a drain on their time and energy that could be spent advocating for their needs (within the larger policy agenda) or just not having to do that. Advocacy is the "teaching" people are talking about. You keep talking like you're imagining formal instruction or something. Or even literally sitting people down as individuals and arguing at them. That is not what other people are talking about.
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Jan 24, 2020 21:06
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Mat Cauthon posted:It's a political calculation to maximize Sanders' appeal and maybe get some people who might not have otherwise voted for him or been receptive to his message, sorry if you don't think he (or his campaign) are capable of the same sort of strategy as other candidates albeit operating from a position of trying to pull those people to him rather than going to where they are. Regardless, should he win those same chuds and bigots will be seen as part of his coalition and energy that could have been spent pushing for significant left policies will have to be wasted on educating them about the humanity of marginalized people and/or convincing them that said marginalized people should also reap the benefits of those policies. without them you lose and all those marginalized people won't reap the benefit of anything because THERE WILL BE NO BENEFICIAL POLICIES it's not the same strategy because it literally isn't, the only way it can be described as the same is the way you're doing now where bernie doing this and centrists doing that are all just strategies for getting more votes which is technically correct but in reality is wrong
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Jan 24, 2020 21:07
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Xombie posted:Advocacy is the "teaching" people are talking about. You keep talking like you're imagining formal instruction or something. Or even literally sitting people down as individuals and arguing at them. That is not what other people are talking about. Can you give me an example of "advocacy" you've personally been involved in? Because as someone who has done advocacy and organizing work I promise you it's a bit more complicated than just repeating "this good, that bad" as people and hoping they pick it up.
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Jan 24, 2020 21:08
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Mat Cauthon posted:I'm saying that it is a huge lift to educate people out of their harmful beliefs - one that is absolutely worth it. However actually accomplishing that, beyond teaching people what things not to say, is extremely difficult. Even the most well-meaning people don't really know how to do it. So the burden falls to marginalized people to teach everybody else about their own humanity and needs, which is a drain on their time and energy that could be spent advocating for their needs (within the larger policy agenda) or just not having to do that. I'm not sure the people who are going to follow Rogan over to Sanders are quite the hardened regressives you're making them out to be, though. A lot of these are young, malleable minds. That's part of the reason why it's so important to make the attempt with them; otherwise they're going to go to Trump, guaranteed.
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Jan 24, 2020 21:08
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John Wick of Dogs posted:This is hosed up I think it was deleted but one of the replies was ""WITNESS ME" i yell at immortan joe biden as i slide off an icy road into a frozen river"
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Jan 24, 2020 21:08
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Mat Cauthon posted:Who is doing the educating? The same (mostly) cishet white people who complain about their racist, homophobic, transphobic, etc relatives and yet somehow can't ever seem to find a way to convince them why their beliefs are wrong year after year? Color me skeptical. Because if it's the latter, then yeah I have to say I agree because most people aren't any good at persuading other people in a consistent, repeatable way. Especially in the face of an enormous and sophisticated propaganda effort working against them. Rogan is too often aligned with that propaganda effort, and he sucks for that, however this is a case of him not being aligned with it, and turning his listeners against it, and it should be encouraged if for no other reason than it will make that work of persuasion a little bit easier. For gently caress's sake just take the loving W.
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Jan 24, 2020 21:09
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oxsnard posted:right and he said "THAT'S A MAN," which is def not good. I mean put it in this context: if I had to guess, an overwhelming majority of americans would absolutely look at a video of someone like Australian Hannah Mouncey playing aussie rules football and not have a positive reaction to it. She towers over her competition, at 6'2" and 220 lbs. I don't know enough about the surrounding issues regarding sports to competently address it, but I do know that discomfort with situations like that is incredibly common, and Rogan's response to it is an unfiltered and crude representation of this belief. For me, I see that trans people are treated with discrimination and violence and hatred and I want it to stop. But lots of people, including people who are very left leaning, feel the way Rogan does to some degree. I think that is an important thing to understand. Not tolerate, mind you. But getting hung up on this particular purity test from mass media supporters, especially since Sanders has been clearly the most consistent in defending trans rights for years, is not helpful I have a question about this. My male friends all fee this same way more or less. Always vote dem, are pro gay rights, but have an issue with trans women competing in sports with other women. What’s the best why to argue against their argument about “fair”? I’m in no way trolling here, and personally I don’t care about sports enough to think it matters over a persons right to be who they are. As for primary chat. I don’t love him, but I’m now in the vote for Bernie in the primary group. How’s he polling in Oregon? (That’s my current state) does he have a shot in comparison with Warren Biden here?
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Jan 24, 2020 21:15
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Mat Cauthon posted:He might be responsible for their rise to prominence but he doesn't have to give them a much larger platform to spread their views and be exposed to people who might be receptive to their message because the most popular podcaster in the world joked around with them. am I just to assume that people hear, for what must be the first time, the awful poo poo Bari Weiss has to say and are then in favor of Israeli occupation and apartheid? because long before Joe Rogan had his podcast I knew people who had just taken in the lesson that Israel was good and right because they live in a country where that is the dominant opinion of power. I'm willing to bet that his audience isn't some formless blob waiting to be shaped by Joe Rogan. honest question, how does Joe Rogan compare to the Democratic party in this regard. keep in mind what all but the guy he said he'll vote for have demonstrated they'd do for marginalized communities when they have power. rofl, what do you think political education is? just sitting around with people who are already firmly against you, arguing into the wind? there are people firmly on a side and there are people who can be reached in a lot of ways in between. either you're willing to do the work on your side or you give them to the other, that's it. you keep on having your exclusive woke club, those of us actually using that energy you don't want wasted will somehow manage without you.
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Jan 24, 2020 21:15
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https://twitter.com/HoarseWisperer/status/1220739981657944070?s=20 Insurance lobbyist horse man mad
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Jan 24, 2020 21:17
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VitalSigns posted:Yes both are correct VitalSigns posted:I have never heard of him outside of this website. VitalSigns posted:Rogan is already one of the more popular podcasts out there with millions of followers, he already has a platform, his views are already being heard by millions of people, 
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Jan 24, 2020 21:17
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LionArcher posted:I have a question about this. My male friends all fee this same way more or less. Always vote dem, are pro gay rights, but have an issue with trans women competing in sports with other women. What’s the best why to argue against their argument about “fair”? I’m in no way trolling here, and personally I don’t care about sports enough to think it matters over a persons right to be who they are. PenguinKnight posted:I’m not 100% on the science despite being a trans woman, but the big E has the same effects on AMAB people as dis women: bone density lowers and muscle mass is lost
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Jan 24, 2020 21:17
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Didn’t see this till after I posted. Thanks. Mods if my post wandered too much happy to delete, I’d love to not eat a probation because i was genuinely curious about a response and this thread seemed to have folks that knew what they were talking about.
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Jan 24, 2020 21:20
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LionArcher posted:I have a question about this. My male friends all fee this same way more or less. Always vote dem, are pro gay rights, but have an issue with trans women competing in sports with other women. What’s the best why to argue against their argument about “fair”? I’m in no way trolling here, and personally I don’t care about sports enough to think it matters over a persons right to be who they are. This is more about intersex athletes than trans people but I think it lays out the various positions pretty well and should illuminate why transphobia is harmful, especially the entire "well what about sports" argument: https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/5/3/18526723/caster-semenya-800-gender-race-intersex-athletes
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Jan 24, 2020 21:22
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LionArcher posted:How’s he polling in Oregon? (That’s my current state) does he have a shot in comparison with Warren Biden here? Oregon hasn't been polled since March of last year but he was doing pretty good then and considering that he won it by 56% last time I like his chances. The primary isn't until May 19th so it would surprise me if anyone aside from Bernie and Biden will be on the ballot. quote:
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Jan 24, 2020 21:23
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Lightning Knight posted:The idea is that being a part of a marginalized group in politics means that if you are (perceived to be) inconsistent that is highlighted and focused on more than if you are a white man, and more people will be critical of you than apologize for you. I don't think this is the point she was trying to make. I think she was trying to say "if you're not a white man you're forced to compromise yourself to succeed and gain political power." edit: People make this same argument about Hillary frequently (that she had bad politics because she was trying to succeed as a woman in a man's world, etc). To the extent that it's even possibly true, I don't know what response there is other than "well, that's certainly unfortunate and it's a good thing it's apparently no longer the case." Unless they think that we should kill and maim millions just to be fair to Hillary Clinton or Kamala Harris. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Jan 24, 2020 |
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Jan 24, 2020 21:25
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John Wick of Dogs posted:To me he just seems like a dumbass who needs things explained to him. That's probably overly generous. In general though I would like to attract more dumbasses who need things explained to them, so that we can explain things to them.
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Jan 24, 2020 21:26
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LionArcher posted:Didn’t see this till after I posted. Thanks. Mods if my post wandered too much happy to delete, I’d love to not eat a probation because i was genuinely curious about a response and this thread seemed to have folks that knew what they were talking about. It’s a post from c-spam  the article in the tweet from my post has an actual study 
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Jan 24, 2020 21:26
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LionArcher posted:Didn’t see this till after I posted. Thanks. Mods if my post wandered too much happy to delete, I’d love to not eat a probation because i was genuinely curious about a response and this thread seemed to have folks that knew what they were talking about. You shouldn't eat a probe for this. The response I quoted was from the cspam thread where I asked basically the same question. efb by the person i quoted 
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Jan 24, 2020 21:26
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Bernie should do what hillary did and alienate everyone outside of the coasts because some of them have bad opinions
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Jan 24, 2020 21:29
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 Yes both of those things are true. Dude if you're still so mad about something I said yesterday that you're grudgeposting about it today, maybe actually read what you're mad about. VitalSigns posted:for the record I think his endorsement is a minor good thing that may help turn out habitual nonvoters for Bernie, I'm dismissing concerns that he's so infamous that women will conclude Bernie is a sexist by association VitalSigns posted:Most people don't watch MMA, and most people don't listen to the podcast of an MMA guy, I don't think these are very controversial statements. VitalSigns posted:He can have influence over literally millions of men and still not be a household name to most people. OK now that you've read and comprehended all that (if it isn't too much to ask), grudgepost to your heart's content
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Jan 24, 2020 21:31
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Ytlaya posted:I don't think this is the point she was trying to make. I think she was trying to say "if you're not a white man you're forced to compromise yourself to succeed and gain political power." Yeah, and it's a very legitimate point. The only issue I have with that tweet is that she seems to be weaponizing her position. The fact that it's harder for people who aren't white males to follow their convictions is objectively a bad thing, but it's also not a mark against someone who's held an ethically consistent position throughout their career. Bringing it up in this context comes across as really disingenuous and intentionally harmful.
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Jan 24, 2020 21:31
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https://twitter.com/averiharper/status/1220797804613906432?s=21
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Jan 24, 2020 21:34
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The HoarseWhisperer meltdown when Bernie wins is going to loving own. Also this from all the people who whined "don't let perfect be the enemy of good".
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Jan 24, 2020 21:35
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Glad he didn't fold and reject the endorsement, but I also wish that statement had more strongly reiterated his support of the LGBTQ community. The best way to deal with this kind of thing is to say "We're glad you're voting for us, but we're also going to remind you exactly what it is that you're voting for."
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Jan 24, 2020 21:37
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thank god, he didn't go into apology mode Paradoxish posted:I also wish that statement had more strongly reiterated his support of the LGBTQ community. The best way to deal with this kind of thing is to say "We're glad you're voting for us, but we're also going to remind you exactly what it is that you're voting for." that's the whole point of the "Sharing a big tent..." sentence
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Jan 24, 2020 21:38
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Paradoxish posted:Glad he didn't fold and reject the endorsement, but I also wish that statement had more strongly reiterated his support of the LGBTQ community. The best way to deal with this kind of thing is to say "We're glad you're voting for us, but we're also going to remind you exactly what it is that you're voting for." That's a fair point. Hopefully that will be a big part of the push going forward, particularly before Super Tuesday.
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Jan 24, 2020 21:38
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https://twitter.com/RalphNader/status/1220754858330009600?s=19
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Jan 24, 2020 21:39
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MrBuddyLee posted:Great idea. One way to encourage more people to speak up in search of wisdom might be to stop calling them dumbasses. I only call them dumbasses behind their back, dumbass
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Jan 24, 2020 21:41
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Perfect response from the Sanders camp, as usual
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Jan 24, 2020 21:42
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Doctor Jeep posted:that's the whole point of the "Sharing a big tent..." sentence Yes, I'm saying I wish he had been a little more explicit. It's not a big deal either way and I think the response was fine.
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Jan 24, 2020 21:44
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Verisimilidude posted:Bernie should do what hillary did and alienate everyone outside of the coasts because some of them have bad opinions Bad news from Florida, we're both 95% coasts and 95% bad opinions.
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Jan 24, 2020 21:50
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