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Strom Cuzewon posted:I still hold that Bran doesn't eat Jojen paste, entirely because it's described as resembling blood, and there's no way you'd use that to describe something that is actually blood. So he only ate Jojen Communion?
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Jan 24, 2020 22:56
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Zaphod42 posted:Don't forget riding all the way from Westeros to King's Landing (the equivalent of walking across England) in order to finally get her revenge on someone she's hated all her life and had been going to bed every night vowing to kill, only to be convinced at the drop of a hat to turn around and walk back, because, vengeance is bad??? What???? “Don’t become like me, Arya” Meanwhile Arya butchered two guys and fed them to their father, Clegane is an amateur compared to her
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Jan 24, 2020 22:59
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She killed an unarmed boy long before she got to Braavos and she never felt bad about it at all. Not to mention the mass poisoning of like 3 dozen dudes.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:01
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Seriously the end of Arya's arc turning into "revenge is bad for you" literally on the finish line of a 10 year "gotta get revenge or die trying" is so stupid. It also feels like needlessly injecting modern society politics into GOT where they don't remotely belong, which is something bad genre writers do a lot and I hate. Same with discussions of democracy at Bran's coronation. Like, wtf? That'a such lovely writing. Everybody here grew up under monarchy. Are you telling me Sam is Thomas Moore????
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Jan 24, 2020 23:05
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COMPAGNIE TOMMY posted:Edmure tully: I have something to say, Maybe some ideas about how we can move forward past all this horrible, horrible poo poo that’s been hap- Because he's an irrelevant pity invite who had to be invited even though nobody in the room respects him, and he's just trying to play statesman to forestall his neighbors calculating how much of his land they can steal. The conference of the lords was the sort of thing I've always felt Game of Thrones was actually about. Now that the villains are dead, the surviving powers have to get together and try not to gently caress everything up with an agreement that doesn't make anyone look weak in front of their kinsmen, while also settling some old scores, to not look weak in front of their kinsmen. The last time this happened, the Lannisters enraged Dorne and horrified the Starks to curry emergency favor with Robert, which set the stage for everything that happened next. Now, the mercenaries are refusing to leave, Sansa's openly out to piss everyone off because she's the one with troops in the field, the Iron Islands and Dorne are thinking of bailing, and the Vale's in a great position as the one place that hasn't been bled nearly as bad as it's neighbors, and Tyrion has to figure out a way to keep the whole thing turning. It's a bunch of nobles trying to pre-emptively backstab their neighbors before the next great war, and Tyrion's trying to throw Bran in as a compromise (that immediately fails because the new king's sister immediately walks out of the kingdom). It's a great scene! ...if it wasn't just a quick epilogue to try to wrap everything up with characters that are barely shown to us.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:06
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Zaphod42 posted:Seriously the end of Arya's arc turning into "revenge is bad for you" literally on the finish line of a 10 year "gotta get revenge or die trying" is so stupid. What if the dragon came back and attacked them as they were discussing it?
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Jan 24, 2020 23:06
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Zaphod42 posted:So he only ate Jojen Communion? If you're Catholic then it's still blood!
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Jan 24, 2020 23:10
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I still hold that Bran doesn't eat Jojen paste, entirely because it's described as resembling blood, and there's no way you'd use that to describe something that is actually blood. I'm pretty sure blood resembles blood, man. Really though, it might be blood because that scene is from Bran's point of view, and he doesn't know what it is. Maybe it's really mashed-up Jojen, maybe it's just porridge, but all Bran knows is that it resembles blood.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:11
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Zaphod42 posted:Same with discussions of democracy at Bran's coronation. Like, wtf? That'a such lovely writing. Everybody here grew up under monarchy. Are you telling me Sam is Thomas Moore???? Making Bran the king on Tyrion's suggestion is easily one of the standout stupid moments of an impressively stupid season. He's not even really a person anymore, how is that supposed to work out at all? "King Bran, invaders are attacking from the north! How should we respond?" "I am not Bran, I am the Three Eyed Raven." "Ok but what does that mean? You've never actually explained it." *Bran's eyes roll up in his head as he wargs off somewhere*
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Jan 24, 2020 23:14
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Zaphod42 posted:Same with discussions of democracy at Bran's coronation. Like, wtf? That'a such lovely writing. Everybody here grew up under monarchy. Are you telling me Sam is Thomas Moore???? At least they laughed him off. quote:"I am not Bran, I am the Three Eyed Raven." It's difficult to explain...
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Jan 24, 2020 23:17
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NoEyedSquareGuy posted:Making Bran the king on Tyrion's suggestion is easily one of the standout stupid moments of an impressively stupid season. He's not even really a person anymore, how is that supposed to work out at all? It really shows they didn't understand Bran's character arc at all Also sad he never got to warg into a knight. That should have been a thing since we learned he could warg Hodor and was crippled.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:17
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It just feels really dumb to have a sinister simile, and then in a shocking plot twist have it actually be the sinister thing. Zaphod42 posted:So he only ate Jojen Communion? Yup. Bransubstantiation.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:17
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NoEyedSquareGuy posted:Making Bran the king on Tyrion's suggestion is easily one of the standout stupid moments of an impressively stupid season. He's not even really a person anymore, how is that supposed to work out at all? I like how Tyrion turned from hitting nothing but net to a complete idiot in the final season. It's almost like Dany emits a intelligence lowering aura to all her advisors given how they go along with her bad decisions that always require Deus Ex like intervention in the plot to not kill her.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:29
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Precambrian posted:Because he's an irrelevant pity invite who had to be invited even though nobody in the room respects him, and he's just trying to play statesman to forestall his neighbors calculating how much of his land they can steal. At that point isn’t he lord of river run/ the river lands which while not a kingdom was no more or less autonomous than the 7 “kingdoms” ruled from the capital? The second part: probably about the best thing he could be doing in that situation, no? And if the North is just leaving anyway why should he listen to Sansa? The North “needing” to be independent doesn’t really ring true considering it’s her BROTHER (who is ALSO a northman) who ends up being king! And doesn’t the night king ice apocalypse highlight the need for the kingdoms to actually be more united than ever instead of having loving brexits due not to any specific or solvable disagreement but essentially because “we don’t take no guff?” The while issue from the nights watch perspective was that they weren’t united when they need to be. Everyone south was fighting each other and if they didn’t come together they would all have died. But of course... it’s made totally irrelevant because arya ends it all and nothing in the last 8 years ended up mattering whatsoever, lol If I’m Sansa, I’m building an overpass bridge from north of the wall over winterfell so the ice zombies can run straight into the 6 kingdoms without getting any of my poo poo ruined. (Think the canada-Mexico bridge from Archer)
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Jan 24, 2020 23:30
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Zaphod42 posted:Seriously the end of Arya's arc turning into "revenge is bad for you" literally on the finish line of a 10 year "gotta get revenge or die trying" is so stupid. Nah, revenge tragedies were a really well established genre in early modern societies. When your entire justice system relies on your family's willingness to avenge you if you're murdered, it's pretty easy for entire communities to get embroiled in Hatfield-McCoy murder cycles. "Please, for God's sake, stop seeking revenge" is the theme of a lot of stories from the times analogous to GOT's setting. COMPAGNIE TOMMY posted:At that point isn’t he lord of river run/ the river lands which while not a kingdom was no more or less autonomous than the 7 “kingdoms” ruled from the capital? The Riverlands have been the most invaded and pillaged of the kingdoms, and he already betrayed Sansa once, in a way that made him look cowardly and won him no favor. He's a weak lord in charge of the weakest power there, and that's reason enough for a Medieval lord to tell him to gently caress off. Plus, that's what makes Bran a really interesting choice for king: he's a huge bribe to the North, to put a Stark on the throne, while being a king who could never lead armies in the field (reassuring Dorne et al. that this isn't ushering in Northern domination). The fact that Sansa doesn't accept the bribe is because she doesn't have to: she can take the whole pie and not have to pay taxes and win favor with her independence-minded bannermen. She doesn't really need the mutual protection guaranteed by a King because everyone else is weak right now following the big wars, and now the Ice Zombies have been eliminated. And, she's kind of an rear end in a top hat, being driven by ego and being in a position of relative strength to everyone else. In a better season, we'd actually get to see these personalities and agendas in action, instead of having to piece it together for the fifteen minutes of actual politics we've got, but the arrangement isn't a bad idea in and of itself. It's an interesting play from Tyrion that promptly fails to achieve what it's after, because people's egos and the realities of feudal politics get in the way.
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Jan 24, 2020 23:52
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Okay, I think I get it-Precambrian posted:Plus, that's what makes Bran a really interesting choice for king: he's a huge bribe to the North, to put a Stark on the throne, while being a king who could never lead armies in the field (reassuring Dorne et al. that this isn't ushering in Northern domination). The fact that Sansa doesn't accept the bribe is because she doesn't have to: she can take the whole pie and not have to pay taxes and win favor with her independence-minded bannermen. That's not interesting, that's bad writing! 
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Jan 25, 2020 00:05
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Precambrian posted:Nah, revenge tragedies were a really well established genre in early modern societies. When your entire justice system relies on your family's willingness to avenge you if you're murdered, it's pretty easy for entire communities to get embroiled in Hatfield-McCoy murder cycles. "Please, for God's sake, stop seeking revenge" is the theme of a lot of stories from the times analogous to GOT's setting. Why would any of them accept Bran as king? He has no armies to enforce his claim. Honestly most factions are depleted and no one is really in a position to fight except for maybe Dorne. The Iron Islands definitely should've told everyone else to gently caress off because there are no navies around to tell them otherwise. The whole thing was insanely stupid.
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Jan 25, 2020 00:06
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Why would any of them accept Bran as king? He has no armies to enforce his claim. Honestly most factions are depleted and no one is really in a position to fight except for maybe Dorne. The Iron Islands definitely should've told everyone else to gently caress off because there are no navies around to tell them otherwise. I think Vale's actually the strongest, or, at least, least damaged. Wasn't it mentioned that Dorne went to a civil war after Cersei took out their leadership? But Bran's the compromise option. A King, so the kingdom still stands and they, generally, do enjoy the benefits of being in a kingdom. Essos has effectively sent armies three times to Westeros (Stannis, Dany, Golden Company), and now the North is fair game for them to start carving out land from. But Bran's also a king who's too weak to really make them do anything. They've increased their individual power without having to take the risk of seceding. The North continuing to secede anyways is a dumb, rear end in a top hat move, but that's what feudalism is. GOT used to make a point so you knew why Robb's bannermen were angry, vengeful, and petty and how he had to really twist himself to herd those cats (and when he decided to assert his own authority, it hurt someone's feelings and got him murdered). Sansa has those same families as her bannermen, plus years of experience being on her own as the sole administrator of the North at a time her brother was loving off selling out his kingdom and the South was planning how to invade her. It's reasonable for her to do a dumb thing, it's just that we never got to see the moving parts that lead her to be dumb. One of the things I like about the first book is you get why Ned has to be the most honorable man alive, even if that's the trait that gets him murdered in the South. He's got to be the guy a bunch of warlike, quarreling assholes agree to go to for settling disputes. So he needs to be honest, consistent, and forthright to deal with them, but those traits don't work when you're in an environment of subtle schemers, so he does a shitload of dumb things.
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Jan 25, 2020 00:23
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Precambrian posted:I think Vale's actually the strongest, or, at least, least damaged. Wasn't it mentioned that Dorne went to a civil war after Cersei took out their leadership? Zane fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Jan 25, 2020 |
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Jan 25, 2020 04:10
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Zane posted:of getting one up on the fan community from one episode to another. there is no point in explicating the meaning of anything that resulted from this lovely d&d misunderstanding of what grrm was trying originally to do. Ooh, has anyone brought up season 2 of Westworld? I think that's example #1 of how writing your show to trick your fan community is the worst thing for storytelling. Season 1 had an interesting mystery built around a twist -- one of the main storylines was taking place years before the other one -- and there were a lot of well-done clues and foreshadowing that made the show really popular to theorize about on message boards. Then for season 2, I dunno, maybe they were mad that their viewers guessed the twist, so they just made it as impenetrable as possible. Three different timelines for no good reason except to confuse people about when things were happening, people being cryptic for no reason, and a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting because, honestly, I stopped paying attention halfway through.
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Jan 25, 2020 04:54
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I still hold that Bran doesn't eat Jojen paste, entirely because it's described as resembling blood, and there's no way you'd use that to describe something that is actually blood. Luckily cannibal Bran doesnt need Jojen paste Read Varmyr Six-Skins prologue and it talks of poo poo skinchangers should never do as its evil in the eyes of the Gods and unforgiveable. Like eating human flesh in warg form. Or controlling humans. Whoops.
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Jan 25, 2020 05:06
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etalian posted:What was the fate of fake Sansa? Didn't have a fake Stark, instead Littlefinger tricked the real Sansa into going to Ramsey because no one would care if Theon broke away from Ramsey to save a random girl being tortured as bad or worse than he was unless they were a named charater. Which misses that Theon deciding to save a girl literally no one would give a single poo poo for if they didn't think she was a Stark is the whole point.
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Jan 25, 2020 05:17
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Zane posted:the showrunners weren't thinking about any of this. they were thinking about how best to subvert viewer expectations. unlike martin's technique of subversion--which works always to play upon the gap between the myth and the reality of a feudal society--the d&d technique of subversion by s8 has devolved into simple gimmickry; of getting one up on the fan community from one episode to another. there is no point in explicating the meaning of anything that resulted from this lovely d&d misunderstanding of what grrm was trying originally to do. But GRRM was probably the one who did most all of that. He's the guy who told the showrunners that Bran would be the king, that Sansa would leave with the North, and the other big picture things about how everyone ended up. And I think it's a fairly interesting setup, because it's weird and messy and complicated. What D&D did, though, was just rush to the ending, because all they care about was the big shocking reveal driven by some jerkoff thing about ~storytellers~ rather than telling the story that'd actually build up those points. E. I think I misread you, and I think we mostly agree. I just think when people criticize Bran the Broken, the problem isn't the idea of King Bran and an Electoral Monarchy as an inherently bad ending, but the execution.
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Jan 25, 2020 06:10
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Precambrian posted:But GRRM was probably the one who did most all of that. He's the guy who told the showrunners that Bran would be the king, that Sansa would leave with the North, and the other big picture things about how everyone ended up. And I think it's a fairly interesting setup, because it's weird and messy and complicated. What D&D did, though, was just rush to the ending, because all they care about was the big shocking reveal driven by some jerkoff thing about ~storytellers~ rather than telling the story that'd actually build up those points. Zane fucked around with this message at 09:41 on Jan 25, 2020 |
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Jan 25, 2020 06:46
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Yup. Bransubstantiation. 
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Jan 25, 2020 07:51
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if dnd had managed a serviceable but forgettable ending grrm would not bother finishing the books
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Jan 25, 2020 09:16
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Percelus posted:if dnd had managed a serviceable but forgettable ending grrm would not bother finishing the books Sounds like your saying the ending was serviceable but forgettable?
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Jan 25, 2020 18:07
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While I love the conspiracy theory that GRRM used D&D to see how his rough draft ideas would play out with general audiences then adapted things thusly, let's be real. He's never releasing the books, he's super duper rich.
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Jan 25, 2020 18:39
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Doctor Reynolds posted:While I love the conspiracy theory that GRRM used D&D to see how his rough draft ideas would play out with general audiences then adapted things thusly, let's be real. He's never releasing the books, he's super duper rich. We'll get Winds, but it won't be complete and he'll say there's going to be another two books to close everything up. We'll probably get it in the next couple years. But the series itself won't be finished until he dies and they hire someone to churn it out just so they can mop up what little profit is left.
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Jan 25, 2020 19:22
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they'll give it to ra salvatore and drizzt will end up killing the nightking
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Jan 26, 2020 00:58
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Doctor Reynolds posted:While I love the conspiracy theory that GRRM used D&D to see how his rough draft ideas would play out with general audiences then adapted things thusly, let's be real. He's never releasing the books, he's super duper rich. It remains to be seen. He's written himself into an intractable corner. Whereas D&D just handwaved every loose end in the last two seasons, GRRM has an entire continent of characters going on that never made it into the show.
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Jan 26, 2020 08:19
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I hated everything Arya-related in the last couple of seasons but an underrated terrible thing they did with her was that they show Arya & the Hound leaving by themselves for King's Landing BEFORE the massive army starts going south, but then they end up arriving AFTER the army has already arrived and set up camp outside of KL. There is no possible way they would end up arriving later than the loving army did but they wrote it that way just so they could avoid having to deal with what Arya's character absolutely WOULD have done, which is to sneak through the city and stab Cersei in the neck. Weak.
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Jan 26, 2020 08:35
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Martin is ancient and morbidly obese
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Jan 26, 2020 09:26
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Collapsing Farts posted:Martin is ancient and morbidly obese sick burn I guess but not very creative
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Jan 26, 2020 18:16
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el oso posted:I hated everything Arya-related in the last couple of seasons but an underrated terrible thing they did with her was that they show Arya & the Hound leaving by themselves for King's Landing BEFORE the massive army starts going south, but then they end up arriving AFTER the army has already arrived and set up camp outside of KL. I'm sure they just had lots of off-screen adventures in the 6 months (minutes in screen time) it took the army to march there.
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Jan 26, 2020 21:18
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Marmaduke! posted:I'm sure they just had lots of off-screen adventures in the 6 months (minutes in screen time) it took the army to march there. That reminds me of how completely ridiculous it is that the Lannister army could march all the way from King's Landing to Highgarden, taking one of the most heavily fortified castles in Westeros, so fast that Dany doesn't even learn about it before it is too late. I feel like this detail doesn't get enough hate. Even if we ignore the fact that taking a castle is supposed to require a protracted siege, simply marching the army all the way there would have taken a long time, probably involving skirmishes along the way. There should have been more than enough time to send a raven to Dany, so she could swoop in on her dragons and save the day. At the very least, Lady Oleanna could have evacuated when she learned of the approaching invasion force. It's especially egregious since we later learn that a bunch of people stuck on an ice floe beyond the wall can get a message to Dany fast enough for her to come rescue them the next day.
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Jan 26, 2020 21:48
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An essential part of a siege is archers that can shoot down ravens, I remember that from when the northern armies turned up at the Twins...
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Jan 26, 2020 22:15
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Marmaduke! posted:An essential part of a siege is archers that can shoot down ravens, I remember that from when the northern armies turned up at the Twins... Like I said, even if we ignore the siege, just marching the army there would have taken a very long time. She could simply send a raven before they arrived. SimonChris fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Jan 26, 2020 |
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Jan 26, 2020 22:17
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Remember the Tyrells didn’t have a standing army either
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Jan 26, 2020 22:31
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I thought they got the Tyrell's main army (Tarly) to turn traitor?
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Jan 26, 2020 23:21
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