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Maybe I missed this, when did he know about Confession?
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Jan 27, 2020 12:36
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It was used on him when he went to meet with Overhaul.
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Jan 27, 2020 13:23
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I think it was, at least. Even if not, though, "If I tell them the plan, then it's possible that the yakuza will learn the plan from them; if I don't tell them the plan, they'll probably get mad and gently caress over the yakuza anyway," is a pretty reasonable assumption about Toga and Twice.
Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Jan 27, 2020 |
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Jan 27, 2020 14:26
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He specifically tells them to go join the Yakuza and 'be themselves'.
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Jan 27, 2020 15:33
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Fartbox posted:Well it wasn't excactly some impressive fourth dimensional play by Shigaraki. He just waited for the plot armored heroes to defeat Overhaul then hit him when he was helpless in an ambulance. I think we as a community need to sit down and have a discussion about what the gently caress "plot armor" means because this context makes no sense to me. Is it just "any time someone doesn't die"? Am I enjoying the benefits of plot armor right now?
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Jan 27, 2020 20:15
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Blockhouse posted:Am I enjoying the benefits of plot armor right now? I could give you an answer, but that would be a spoiler.
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Jan 27, 2020 20:33
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I think plot armor would be something like Izuku suicidally launching himself at Shiggy and Kurogiri at the USJ, winding up half an inch away from dying and then getting out of all three of those incidents without a scratch. Not saying the MC should die that soon into the story, but that was incredibly reckless and only ended as well as it did because he couldn't die that early.
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Jan 27, 2020 21:18
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Something I never thought of: During Izuku's and Overhaul's fight, I thought they just used All for One's theme because it's a big climactic fight with a strong villain. I didn't give the show enough credit.Listening to AFO's theme on YT and lots of comments on how, far from being a song for Overhaul, it's the theme for Deku because at that time we are getting things from Overhaul's viewpoint. He had just had flashbacks and everything. From Overhaul's perspective, One For All at 100% is as terrifying and threatening as All for One. At that moment, Izuku's power was so overwhelming that Overhaul was as scared as anybody who had ever faced All for One. The kid was also of course obliterating his body during all this which adds to the intimidating nature of that moment.
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Jan 27, 2020 21:28
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Blockhouse posted:I think we as a community need to sit down and have a discussion about what the gently caress "plot armor" means because this context makes no sense to me. also one of the "plot armored" heroes got shanked immediately after using his power like once, one lost his powers and one of them loving died
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Jan 27, 2020 21:47
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None of the plot armored ones suffered anything bad really. Shigs plan was to bet on the heroes to win which is all hosed up for a villain
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Jan 27, 2020 22:09
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Fartbox posted:None of the plot armored ones suffered anything bad really. Shigs plan was to bet on the heroes to win which is all hosed up for a villain Why is it hosed up to hope that your opposition gets crushed and you sneak away with the prize in the confusion?
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Jan 27, 2020 22:13
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Because he gives his arch enemies a win? Wouldn't it have been smarter to support the other villain long enough for him to deal a lot of damage to the heroes
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Jan 27, 2020 22:17
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Shig doesn't know that Deku has OFA, so I think "archnemesis" is a bit strong. He still wants to kill All Might, but in that moment, he despised Overhaul much, much more than a random UA kid with super strength who's messed with him in the past.
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Jan 27, 2020 22:37
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Fartbox posted:Because he gives his arch enemies a win? Wouldn't it have been smarter to support the other villain long enough for him to deal a lot of damage to the heroes Just because they're both villain groups doesn't mean they're on the same side; they each have different goals. Screwing the Yakuza over probably helps their long-term goals more than taking out a few heroes. Overhaul told Shiggy at least some of his plan, which would go a long way to bringing down hero society. And even without the quirk-erasing thing, the underworld rep boost could be helpful. Even piggybacking on Stain's rep got them Toga and Spinner. Even if the LOV went all in and killed every hero there, there's always more to come in as backup, and without Kurogiri it's a lot harder not to get cornered.
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Jan 27, 2020 22:45
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there's also no such thing as "dealing a lot of damage to the heroes" in this setting with the manpower that shigaraki's got. the power imbalance between hero and villain in MHA is absurd - the former is a country-spanning multibillion-dollar industry with the latest technology, limitless funding, and thousands of people who double as both celebrities and special law enforcement with all the privileges of both, while the villains are mostly down-and-out bums and anarchists squatting in lovely hovels and warehouses and taking what they can get when they can get it. overhaul is one of the few exceptions, because he's leeching off the dregs of the yakuza's own wealth and influence to fund his pet projects that's why shigaraki's early operations focused more on demolishing the hero society's public image more than just trying to rack up a kill count. taking down all might was the most obvious way to accomplish that, sure, but when all might turned out to have way too much swagger for him to handle, he instead tried to make one of the most visible and controversial hero students a public turncoat, which would wreck U.A.'s image. that second plan could have worked! it's just that he horribly misjudged bakugo's personality and got his face exploded for his trouble.
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Jan 27, 2020 23:06
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Fartbox posted:Because he gives his arch enemies a win? Wouldn't it have been smarter to support the other villain long enough for him to deal a lot of damage to the heroes Hero vs villain isnt football. "Giving his arch enemies a win" isn't like now he's down a point that he has to make up later if he wants to win the game. It doesnt matter if the heroes get a victory or not if shigaraki's own forces are untouched, but like 3 big name heroes died and he got to talk away with his rival in villainy defeated and a number of quirk destroying bullets. The league of villains was, by far, the true victor here. Overhaul's group is out of the picture and the heroes paid a huge cost to get that to happen. The heroes are walking out of this fight weaker than they were before and shigaraki gets to walk out with the fruits of years and years of dangerous and immoral scientific experimentation. Like, how is this not a big win for him? Two of his enemies just self destructed on each other and he got a cool bonus prize out of it
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Jan 27, 2020 23:36
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even if Overhaul did beat the heroes his guards are now all out of commission and he’s escaping alone, so Shigaraki could probably still ambush him while he’s most vulnerable.
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Jan 27, 2020 23:41
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How? Does anyone know where those tunnels lead? Overhaul's quirk probably lets him escape without leaving much of a trail. The only way shigaraki gets to gently caress up overhaul is if the heroes win and he attacks the prison truck overhaul is loaded onto.
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Jan 28, 2020 00:05
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Fartbox posted:Shigs plan was to bet on the heroes to win which is all hosed up for a villain Not really. What does Shigaraki get out of helping Overhaul win? He kills some school kids and maybe a Pro Hero or two, but none of the ones he (All Might) or his subordinates (presumably Endeavor at least) care about. And the trade-off is that now the Yakuza thinks they're hot poo poo and can get the League to kowtow to them some more while Overhaul continues to try and put himself on a pedestal as the new All for One. Also, given his Sith Lord inspiration, I can't imagine All for One would be happy at the idea of Shigaraki keeping a rival around and not doing anything to undercut or destroy them if given the chance.
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Jan 28, 2020 00:16
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Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day Shigaraki's whole deal is that he's a comic-book supervillain. There was no way this arc was ever going to end with him accepting being number 2 to another villain, so betraying Overhaul even if it means letting the heroes he hates have a victory as well is totally on-genre. The interesting part is that he wins by having a better understanding of his henchgoons as people than Overhaul does with using the bullets as disposable resources.
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Jan 28, 2020 00:50
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Overhaul killed Shigarakis teammate, hurt another, insulted him to his face repeatedly AND dared to casually offer him that he becomes his subordinate. I don't think there was a single person so far in the series that pissed Shigaraki off as much as Overhaul did. The fact that Shigaraki managed to control himself enough to calm down and pretend to ally with Overhaul shows his growth, but I don't think it's surprising that Shigaraki gleefully used the first possible opportunity to sabotage and eliminate Overhaul, even if it meant helping the heroes.
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Jan 28, 2020 00:51
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And, again, that's "helping" in a way that involved killing one hero and a lot of cops and leaving a lot of damage in his wake, on top of everything that happened at the yakuza hideout. I doubt the heroes are particularly grateful to the League right now. People have already basically said it, but to put it plainly, the heroes weren't Shigaraki's main enemies in this arc. Overhaul was. Overhaul was a new and more direct threat to him and his plans, and if Overhaul had walked out of this without being figuratively or literally destroyed, then Shigaraki would have lost. Instead, from the second meeting with Overhaul onward, Shiggy got basically everything he wanted, possibly excluding Eri herself (and I don't think she would have been that useful in the League's hands), plus some heroes died or were maimed in the process, and it cost him nothing. Heck, Toga and Twice seem to like him more now, and Compress probably appreciates getting to take revenge on Overhaul too. (Dabi probably doesn't care, but he's a prick.)
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Jan 28, 2020 01:14
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Never forget that All For One wasn't "a criminal mastermind" or "a supervillain" he was "THE Shadow Ruler of Japan" with both heroes and villains on his payroll It's extremely in line with the skillset he would have drilled into Shigaraki for Shigaraki to manipulate the heroes and rival villains into a situation that ultimately both benefits him most and gives him the best press of the day.
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Jan 28, 2020 01:18
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Roland Jones posted:And, again, that's "helping" in a way that involved killing one hero and a lot of cops and leaving a lot of damage in his wake, on top of everything that happened at the yakuza hideout. I doubt the heroes are particularly grateful to the League right now. Technically they ended up killing two heroes(Nighteye and Snatch). quote:Heck, Toga and Twice seem to like him more now, and Compress probably appreciates getting to take revenge on Overhaul too. (Dabi probably doesn't care, but he's a prick.) The Compress clone probably wasn't that appreciative, but that was mostly Twice and Toga's fault.
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Jan 28, 2020 01:23
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Rhonne posted:Technically they ended up killing two heroes(Nighteye and Snatch). The injuries that caused Nighteye's death were back at the hideout; I was talking about the highway attack in particular, since that was just pure negative for the heroes, no gain. And even at the hideout, while Toga and Twice got Mimic captured and enabled the heroes to catch up to Overhaul and stuff, Toga also stabbed Lockrock and Aizawa. Technically a net gain but again, I doubt the heroes feel particularly appreciative about it. Also yeah, Twice clones have a sad existence.
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Jan 28, 2020 03:16
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Also let's not forget public perception. Losing Nighteye? All Might's old sidekick, especially so soon after All Might retired? LoV got a win with huge ramifications for the future of the society they despise.
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Jan 28, 2020 04:14
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Blockhouse posted:I think we as a community need to sit down and have a discussion about what the gently caress "plot armor" means because this context makes no sense to me.
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Jan 28, 2020 04:40
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plot armor is when a character does something that, logically, should get them killed, but because they are the hero of the story/the plot can not progress unless they live, they miraculously don't die. it makes the events of the story feel arbitrary rather than engaging
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Jan 28, 2020 05:16
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ninjewtsu posted:plot armor is when a character does something that, logically, should get them killed, but because they are the hero of the story/the plot can not progress unless they live, they miraculously don't die. it makes the events of the story feel arbitrary rather than engaging Of course, looking at history shows a lot of people not dying when they "logically" should, which is a complication. And a lot of cases in shows are debatable depending on how charitable you're feeling. All that said, yeah. It's a thing, and more than that, it's a thing where most people accept a certain amount of it without any issue, but as it gets more prominent, it hurts suspension of disbelief and tension.
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Jan 28, 2020 05:52
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I think there's a difference between "miraculously not dying" and scoffing at someone surviving a fight in a story and then declaring it was due to plot armor/
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Jan 28, 2020 06:15
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chiasaur11 posted:Of course, looking at history shows a lot of people not dying when they "logically" should, which is a complication. well yeah, real life is arbitrary and not engaging 
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Jan 28, 2020 06:45
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I basically have plot armor for surviving this far 
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Jan 28, 2020 07:10
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I feel that most people who unironically use the term "plot armor" are those who want to bash on a series but can't come up with a more articulate argument.
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Jan 28, 2020 07:10
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ninjewtsu posted:well yeah, real life is arbitrary and not engaging
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Jan 28, 2020 07:56
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plout armour for those in the commonwealth
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Jan 28, 2020 07:56
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Plot armor just means "protagonists will usually win". It's not inherently bad or good and doesn't mean anything. But it's fairly common for protagonists in Shonen shows to "overcome all odds" and just beat the poo poo out of people they shouldn't have been able to. "Plot armor" is just a way to say that odds are always stacked in their favor even when it looks like it isn't
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Jan 28, 2020 08:09
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Nessus posted:I think a lot of people have developed an aesthetic where things are made BETTER or at least more preferable by having more brutality, random death, etc. It reminds me of the folks who want the hottest of hot sauces, and want it on everything, sometimes. for me personally i'm usually clamoring for characters to die because despite being put in a situation where that's supposedly a possibility and there's supposed to be tension from it, i have no genuine belief that those characters are actually in any danger, and my true desire is for the media in question to surprise me or go against my prediction that the story will be obvious and boring.
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Jan 28, 2020 08:25
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Blockhouse posted:I think there's a difference between "miraculously not dying" and scoffing at someone surviving a fight in a story and then declaring it was due to plot armor/ Plot armor is useful as a general shorthand for the boost main characters get in most shows and comics. It's a way of noting that if, for example, your name is on the book, the same bomb that kills background grunts just leaves you injured. It's not about the character's listed abilities (like Kirishima being unbreakable) as much as it's about their importance to the story. The problem comes when it stops being a description of a narrative phenomena to a criticism of the base concept.
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Jan 28, 2020 08:34
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Ya know, one of many reasons I'm not too cheery about Shigaraki beating Overhaul is I don't buy the supposed contrast being established here At least this is the contrast a lot of fans say its in play. "Overhaul sacrificed his loyal followers while the League cares about each other." Now, do Toga and Twice have loyalty to the League and stuff? Sure. And Overhaul's followers were very loyal, too. Do I think for a second that Shigaraki will hesitate to disintegrate Toga and the rest of them when he has no further need of them? Nope. The rest of them are probably sincerely loyal dupes just like Overhaul's followers were but Shigaraki is as selfish and depraved as All for One or Overhaul. He'll kill them all and maybe laugh while doing it. If I'm supposed to think he actually cares about any of them, I haven't been convinced of that. He's the success to a guy named All for One.
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Jan 29, 2020 17:58
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NikkolasKing posted:Ya know, one of many reasons I'm not too cheery about Shigaraki beating Overhaul is I don't buy the supposed contrast being established here At least this is the contrast a lot of fans say its in play. I don't think this tracks with what we've seen from All For One though. Like, the dude gave himself away before his regeneration was complete to bail out Shigaraki and all his subordinates. He didn't kill any of them for failing, and if he felt they were no longer useful (and they absolutely weren't because they totally misjudged their mark and got busted by police within like 48 hours), he'd have just let them get locked up in turbo jail. Instead he jumps in, knowing he's gonna have to tangle with All Might again and gets the entire league out, more or less unharmed. I'm sure AfO smoked some dudes in the past, but I also don't think he or Shigaraki are characterized as generic evil guys who kill people for making mistakes. AFO himself more or less tells Shigaraki that it's ok to mess up so long as you try again. I don't see Overhaul taking that track with anyone
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Jan 29, 2020 18:31
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