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In most of my games I just ignore global warming because the game will be over before it kicks
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Jan 29, 2020 17:44
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Elias_Maluco posted:They actually expanded the ways the AI is dumb It's just fundamentally bad design. They keep adding more and more concepts to the game without ever thinking about how the AI will handle it, or preparing the AI to handle it; and this is on top of the mechanics that it already struggles with. Civ4 has a lot of issues with its AI, but the mechanics are relatively simplistic and it makes it easy on the AI as a result. Mass all of your troops in a stack to attack/defend cities. Build city improvements or units based on economic or military flavor weightings. Build tile improvements based on growth/production/commerce weightings (though this is definitely where the AI is the weakest). Prioritizing techs based on the same weightings (and again, this is where you'll get economic civs ignoring Rifling for 200 turns despite being lightyears ahead of the other AI and getting destroyed as a result). It doesn't have to worry about two separate tech trees, microing individual units, planning district locations out hundreds of turns into the future, religious layer, espionage, climate change etc. I'm not saying all these features are necessarily bad on their own (I do loathe 1upt, and I think climate change was completely unnecessary, but on the other hand I like a lot of the district system) but it might be time for the series to step back a little bit and simplify and just get the basic things right.
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Jan 29, 2020 18:09
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Brother Entropy posted:good point, let's remove those indicators from the player until the last era of gameplay, it's more realistic that way I would actually like this. The tiles being known from the start makes it too gamey.
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Jan 29, 2020 18:25
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John F Bennett posted:I would actually like this. The tiles being known from the start makes it too gamey. it is a game
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Jan 29, 2020 18:30
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Brother Entropy posted:it is a game yeah it's too gamey
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Jan 29, 2020 18:34
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Brother Entropy posted:it is a game Ha! Knew this exact reaction would come within 5 posts. But you know what I mean, of course. Civ6 is the most gamey game of Civ there has been. I would murder for Civ 4 that had 1UPT. I know people aren't a fan of the 1UPT mechanic, but I enjoy it more than the stacks of before. But I guess we've had this talk before probably.
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Jan 29, 2020 18:40
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John F Bennett posted:Ha! Knew this exact reaction would come within 5 posts. i don't know what you mean actually because every civ game I've played is incredibly 'gamey' in my book, some are just better at providing that kind of experience than others
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Jan 29, 2020 18:43
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John F Bennett posted:I would actually like this. The tiles being known from the start makes it too gamey. hmm yes because plants are definitely only ever able to grow in this exact spot for all time and animals are completely incapable of moving around or thriving outside of this exact spot for all time it is a game. it is allowed to do counterfactual things for the sake of being a game. that includes warning players about potential risks so they're not surprised later.
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Jan 29, 2020 20:46
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The global warming mechanic is extremely stupid because all it does is cause the player to completely avoid tiles that will one day be flooded. The tiles that will one day be flooded might as well be ocean at the start of the game in the eyes of a player. The mechanic does nothing except force the player to click on a lens. The Human Crouton fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Jan 29, 2020 |
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Jan 29, 2020 20:52
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I mean I beeline to seawalls pretty early and just build those. Not for every city but for some it's worth it.
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Jan 29, 2020 20:55
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The Little Death posted:I mean I beeline to seawalls pretty early and just build those. Not for every city but for some it's worth it. Yeah, I dont avoid tiles that are going to be flooded at all. If the game is not already won by the time sea level starts to rise, I just build the seawalls
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Jan 29, 2020 21:03
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You will never get enough value back from a tile to make up for the cost of building a seawall. If you're talking about just working a tile, then fine. Working a tile and putting an improvement on it costs almost nothing. It's still not worth building a seawall to protect that tile though. But if you actually utilize the tile for a district, then you will never get more value out of that tile than you would just building it on a tile that does not require you to also build a seawall.
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Jan 29, 2020 21:14
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The Human Crouton posted:You will never get enough value back from a tile to make up for the cost of building a seawall. If you're talking about just working a tile, then fine. Working a tile and putting an improvement on it costs almost nothing. It's still not worth building a seawall to protect that tile though. Well, I never did the math, but if a tile thats gonna be flooded is the best place for a district, Ill certainly use it. Sea levels rise much later in the game. And if by then the game is not already won, then Ill just build the seawalls, they dont take that much time in a city with good production and by then Ill probably be running out of stuff to build anyway. Tiles are a rare resource, specially on coastal cities. I rather use then all and build the floodwall later, if needed. I dont know, never seemed to be much of a problem in any of my games. Probably no OP but is not like we have to do everything in the most optimal way to win at this game Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Jan 29, 2020 |
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Jan 29, 2020 21:46
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The absolute maximum a sea wall costs is 2 and a half military engineers which aren't that expensive. I've only had one game where important stuff started flooding, it does suddenly give you a new perspective... but seeing what the AI loses is always funny too.
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Jan 29, 2020 22:13
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The Human Crouton posted:You will never get enough value back from a tile to make up for the cost of building a seawall. One thing that no one has mentioned yet is how incredibly good seasteads are, and they come not too long after you get seawalls. Any submerged tile is a potential seastead.
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Jan 29, 2020 23:06
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All this talk of the climate change mechanic is really reinforcing my decision to keep my copy vanilla. It doesn't need more poorly thought out stuff and nothing about this or World Congress sounds worth it. The disasters do sound fun though, in a SimCity 2000 kinda way.
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Jan 29, 2020 23:15
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jojoinnit posted:All this talk of the climate change mechanic is really reinforcing my decision to keep my copy vanilla. It doesn't need more poorly thought out stuff and nothing about this or World Congress sounds worth it. The disasters do sound fun though, in a SimCity 2000 kinda way. Theres more than that on them. Rise & Fall comes with great ages, and governors and some new policies, I think. And great ages and governors are good improvemens to the game, imo Gathering Storm comes with new a strategic resources system, power plants, more techs to end game At least R&F I think ios very worthy. GS I regretted a little, the world congress sucks and disasters and climate chance are kinda meh. But the rest is good
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Jan 29, 2020 23:25
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John F Bennett posted:Why would an ancient people think of a concept like climate change? 
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Jan 29, 2020 23:38
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John F Bennett posted:Why would an ancient people think of a concept like climate change? They noticed it! In the past year I read through the travels of Benjamin of Tudela and he talks about seeing columns in North Africa (I think Southern Egypt but don't have it in front of me) that were now mostly submerged but showed how the waters had risen and iirc mentioned how people had adjusted etc as their climate changed. He wrote in the 12th century.
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Jan 29, 2020 23:42
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jojoinnit posted:All this talk of the climate change mechanic is really reinforcing my decision to keep my copy vanilla. It doesn't need more poorly thought out stuff and nothing about this or World Congress sounds worth it. The disasters do sound fun though, in a SimCity 2000 kinda way. You can change the sea level and turn down disaster intensity, I think.
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Jan 29, 2020 23:55
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I want to know why only a single group of warriors is allowed in a 100 square mile area, and they only move in one of six directions, what do ancient people know of hexagonal mapping or a single group per hexagon?
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Jan 30, 2020 00:04
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:I want to know why only a single group of warriors is allowed in a 100 square mile area, and they only move in one of six directions, what do ancient people know of hexagonal mapping or a single group per hexagon?  Also how come we start the game with map making? The map should remain blank until you discover cartography. And why is there tech-boost stealing via spies but no technology trading like we had in civ 4? This game is so gamey!
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Jan 30, 2020 00:53
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patch: warriors take 2 turns to move into woods/jungle due to their innate desire to beat the gently caress out of everything
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Jan 30, 2020 08:35
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:I want to know why only a single group of warriors is allowed in a 100 square mile area, and they only move in one of six directions, what do ancient people know of hexagonal mapping or a single group per hexagon?
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Jan 30, 2020 09:08
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You're using gold coins and tracking trade before currency is invented, while measuring quantified scientific output via beakers before you've invented the associated scientific methods or basic pottery! Understandably too gamey.
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Jan 30, 2020 09:19
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goatsestretchgoals posted:patch: warriors take 2 turns to move into woods/jungle due to their innate desire to beat the gently caress out of everything oh man that reminds me if you have 1 movemement left you should be able to move onto a tile that costs more 
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Jan 30, 2020 09:26
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Goa Tse-tung posted:oh man that reminds me That's a civ staple since civ 1. It's tradition by now.
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Jan 30, 2020 09:27
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John F Bennett posted:That's a civ staple since civ 1. It's tradition by now. A tradition that Civ 6 has done away with, hence their complaint.
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Jan 30, 2020 12:19
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I think the change to how movement cost works is good, at least conceptually. It makes maneuverable units and movement speed promotions more valuable. I can frequently exploit this tactically to ensure the survival of units or place them in a clever way. The main problem is that 1UPT already causes plenty of traffic jams and slow movement as it is, and the movement cost change compounds that. I've been a defender of 1UPT and the attempts to turn the military game into 'Advance Wars Lite'. I will always maintain it's more engaging than doom stacks. I get that doom stacks are an abstraction of economic power, and some people prefer that kind of war, but I just don't. That being said, there's something that feels wrong about the scale in Civ V & VI when it comes to tactical turn-based combat. The corps/army system helps but doesn't fix everything. It think for 1UPT to work well, you'd need a base movement speed of 3 or 4. I've played mods like this and it makes the combat feel better, but it also makes it way too easy to explore the entire map much more quickly- so it hurts another aspect of the game. I wonder if it would be better to increase the 'resolution' of the map tiles to compensate. That way movement across the world is similarly paced, but maneuverability increases on the micro scale for war.
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Jan 30, 2020 15:22
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1UPT is no more or less flawed than stacks. 1UPT with a a huge number of units is still fine. It's 1UPT with the way Civ has done it that's the issue. Why is getting a clump of units to walk in a single direction such grief? Why are my move orders which take 8 turns to complete getting cancelled since something walked over the destination tile? And so forth. Moving lots of units over a course grid has been done well before, but it's not been done well here.
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Jan 30, 2020 15:50
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Serephina posted:1UPT is no more or less flawed than stacks. 1UPT with a a huge number of units is still fine. It's 1UPT with the way Civ has done it that's the issue. Why is getting a clump of units to walk in a single direction such grief? Why are my move orders which take 8 turns to complete getting cancelled since something walked over the destination tile? And so forth. Moving lots of units over a course grid has been done well before, but it's not been done well here. It's pretty insane that the movement has been that way for TWO games now too.
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Jan 30, 2020 15:56
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Three. Civ:BE... exists.
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Jan 30, 2020 16:13
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In my opinion one simple thing that would make 1UPT a lot less aggravating is transport units Bring back transport ships but also add land transport units, air transport units. Warhammer 40000 has that and it at least makes moving lots of units across long distances a lot less annoying and tiring
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Jan 30, 2020 16:20
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Also transport ships are just a fun mechanic, imo.
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Jan 30, 2020 16:22
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Climate change doesn’t do anything to affect the game. Even when I spam coal power plants everywhere nothing happens.
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Jan 30, 2020 18:22
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I just realized that I usually play with low sea level (more land, or at least thats what I understand it does) Does that affects climate change? Would make sense
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Jan 30, 2020 18:43
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Elias_Maluco posted:In my opinion one simple thing that would make 1UPT a lot less aggravating is transport units Apparently the AI is absolute garbage (instead of moderately garbage) at using transport units in turn-based grid game, that's why they binned them and used things like embarkation instead
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Jan 30, 2020 20:47
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Serephina posted:1UPT is no more or less flawed than stacks. 1UPT with a a huge number of units is still fine. It's 1UPT with the way Civ has done it that's the issue. Why is getting a clump of units to walk in a single direction such grief? Why are my move orders which take 8 turns to complete getting cancelled since something walked over the destination tile? And so forth. Moving lots of units over a course grid has been done well before, but it's not been done well here. If you want to do 1UPT in a civ game it makes more sense to abstract it further - you should really only be controlling 5 or so units (each reflecting an army group) at a given time. An entire carpet of units not only looks stupid, it's also a pain in the rear end to control and micromanage. "Stacking" units reflected this - moving them around wasn't so bad because of stacked movement but they were also a pain in the rear end when you were attacking and defending, and the endgame could see stacks of 50+ units easy which made it tedious attempting to simulate if your attack would succeed or not. The problem here is just that its going to be difficult to create a 'strength' value for an army based on its size and composition. You also risk losing the very clear and defined unit bonuses (like spear vs mounted) for something muddled (does an army that is 50% spear and 50% archer get a bonus against an army that is 50% axes and 50% mounted units? or does it all cancel out). But this can be aided with a very clean and obvious breakdown of the combat in the UI.
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Jan 30, 2020 21:44
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Everything is better with a base movement speed of 3 instead of 2 and you owe it to yourself to try that out
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Jan 30, 2020 21:56
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Serephina posted:1UPT is no more or less flawed than stacks. 1UPT with a a huge number of units is still fine. It's 1UPT with the way Civ has done it that's the issue. Why is getting a clump of units to walk in a single direction such grief? Why are my move orders which take 8 turns to complete getting cancelled since something walked over the destination tile? And so forth. Moving lots of units over a course grid has been done well before, but it's not been done well here. I can understand that thing might get in the way when you send a unit halfway around the world. But the thing that gets to me is the pathing, and how the game just doesn't understand its own rules. Especially when it comes to units on the sea and near the coast. Tell a unit to move somewhere that has a bit of land jutting out, and the game will display a path that makes the unit get back onto land and sometimes back out to sea again.
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Jan 30, 2020 22:13
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