|
Plot armour is when Indiana Jones survives a nuclear explosion by hiding in a fridge.
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2020 18:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 12:40 |
|
|
Plot armor is pedantry, meta analysis is an unending abyss, and TVTropes is a blight.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2020 18:42
|
|
|
Skypie posted:I don't think this tracks with what we've seen from All For One though. Like, the dude gave himself away before his regeneration was complete to bail out Shigaraki and all his subordinates. He didn't kill any of them for failing, and if he felt they were no longer useful (and they absolutely weren't because they totally misjudged their mark and got busted by police within like 48 hours), he'd have just let them get locked up in turbo jail. That's all fair but I think it's also fair to say Tomura is a very, very special case. Lots of theories about why exactly AfO looks out for him so much but the point is, he doesn't have that kind of relationship with anyone else. For all we know, the last person he cared about was his brother who died decades ago. One thing that gets totally overlooked in the series is the Nomu. They have to be the single cruelest and most hosed up things we've seen from AfO but they don't get much attention at all. The USJ Nomu was some low level criminal, maybe a bottom rung underling of AfO, who he turned into this mindless abomination..That's what all Nomu are but our heroes don't seem to reflect on these poor tortured human beings. I have to wonder how many are still "alive." All for One is certainly too intelligent to just off people on a whim but does he actually care for anyone besides Tomura? I don't think so.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2020 18:46
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:All for One is certainly too intelligent to just off people on a whim but does he actually care for anyone besides Tomura? I don't think so.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2020 19:57
|
|
|
e: No dadgum spoilers, please. 
Somebody fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Jan 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2020 20:02
|
|
|
InspectorCarbonara posted:Does he even care about Tomura? I thought the only reason he was making him into his successor was to get at All Might since he's related to the previous One for All user. That was probably his initial motivation but it's hardly rare in stories or real life for such motives to decay with time. You take in this boy with the sole goal of using him as a weapon against your enemy but eventually come to have some genuine affection for him. As noted by the poster I replied to, All for One threw himself into a fight he knew he could very easily lose for the sole sake of protecting Tomura. He could have easily left them all to be imprisoned and lost nothing. I guess you could argue it's more a Darth Bane situation than actual feeling. He sees the future of the dark side in Shigaraki and wants to nurture and protect that as opposed to caring about Tomura. But the point is, he sees some value in Tomura beyond just sticking it to All Might. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Jan 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2020 20:38
|
|
|
Skypie posted:I don't think this tracks with what we've seen from All For One though. Like, the dude gave himself away before his regeneration was complete to bail out Shigaraki and all his subordinates. He didn't kill any of them for failing, and if he felt they were no longer useful (and they absolutely weren't because they totally misjudged their mark and got busted by police within like 48 hours), he'd have just let them get locked up in turbo jail. Where is this reading coming from? All for One didn't go into that fight expecting to lose. He didn't have to balance out the costs of maintaining his little revenge project, knowing he'd face All Might again was a /plus/ because he could gently caress with him more. edit: NikkolasKing posted:That was probably his initial motivation but it's hardly rare in stories or real life for such motives to decay with time. You take in this boy with the sole goal of using him as a weapon against your enemy but eventually come to have some genuine affection for him. You too? All for One expected All Might to be weakening, to be vulnerable. He has this whole monologue about suspecting All Might passed on One for All and was using "the lingering dregs" of power to keep going. He did not loving martyr himself for Shigaraki. booksnake fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Jan 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2020 20:39
|
|
|
My counterpoint to the idea that Shigaraki's view of his subordinates doesn't contrast with Overhaul's, even if you believe Shigaraki legit doesn't care about the current league, is that Shigaraki, at the very least, understands the people he works with well enough to orchestrate a plan entirely dependent on his knowing what they would if he left their actions to their own judgement. A plan that could have been foiled if only Overhaul had thought to ask if they were considering betraying him as opposed to if there was any plans in place to do so. Because the Hissaikai wouldn't make plays without his orders (and he's wrong about that too, because Kronostasis made a call of his own after Chisaki was down).
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2020 20:41
|
|
|
It seems obvious they're trying to do a villain parallel group to the current hero group and that parallel would be way more interesting if the villains actually gave a poo poo about eachother to some degree
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2020 20:46
|
|
|
the league immediately started sharpening their knives against overhaul because he killed one of their own and toga and twice had each other's backs during their entire op within the yakuza's HQ they give a poo poo about each other and you're deliberately blinding yourself to the events onscreen if you haven't clued into that by now
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2020 22:00
|
|
|
That's not even getting into Shigaraki going from "Show him the door" to immediately trying to murder Overhaul on the spot for killing Magne.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2020 22:05
|
|
|
No one is denying Toga and Twice care about each other. They are outcasts who actively sought out companionship which is why they are in the League in the first place. Shigaraki meanwhile assembled his team of pawns for the purpose of destroying Hero society. Shigaraki has never been framed as wanting friends or affection.. He's a selfish brat from the beginning to now, he's just more competent than he used to be. Blueberry Pancakes posted:That's not even getting into Shigaraki going from "Show him the door" to immediately trying to murder Overhaul on the spot for killing Magne. That's very easy to explain. He killed Shigaraki's underling. He took away Tomura's possession.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2020 22:33
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:No one is denying Toga and Twice care about each other. They are outcasts who actively sought out companionship Expressly not why Toga joined.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2020 22:36
|
|
|
Adder Moray posted:Expressly not why Toga joined. Fair enough. She was a Stain follower, right? My mistake. Of course she's as crazy as Shigaraki so I have no idea what she saw in Stain. edit: Maybe I just need to rewatch Season 4 again from start to where we are now and without the weekly wait periods and I'll pick up on this character development in Tomura. I'm just having a hard time believing the character we've seen for three seasons now is capable of caring about really anyone except All for One. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Jan 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2020 22:46
|
|
|
i dunno if "shigaraki loves and respects his fellow villains" is terribly accurate but the contrast between how shigaraki treats his underlings and how overhaul treats his underlings is pretty apparent "shigaraki loves and respects his underlings" seems to be a direction that he's headed in, where he isn't there yet but this is the first evidence we're seeing of that kind of growth manifesting
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 00:11
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:No one is denying Toga and Twice care about each other. They are outcasts who actively sought out companionship which is why they are in the League in the first place. Shigaraki meanwhile assembled his team of pawns for the purpose of destroying Hero society. Shigaraki's entire plan is 100% reliant on Toga and Twice acting without any orders. It's a plan that hinges entirely on Shigaraki having absolute, unbending trust in his allies. A plan that he makes clear by asking them to trust him, something Shigaraki would've never done before. He's changed. He genuinely cares for his allies. You see Shigaraki's issues but not his positive points. He's learned about companionship, and it's no surprise that he finally, for once, succeeds now - Shigaraki has understood what all shonen protagonists know and gained the ultimate shonen power: Friendship. NikkolasKing posted:Fair enough. She was a Stain follower, right? Her fetish is people covered in blood. Stain, a person that constantly draws blood from everyone he aims at, fits perfectly in that. Toga has no interest in Stain's ideals, she's just into him.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 00:15
|
|
|
It's also probably worth noticing that the Hissaikai weren't loyal to Overhaul, all their loyalties were distinctly to the old boss, and they only followed Overhaul out of respect for the chain of command. No one seemed to particularly like Overhaul. Meanwhile, even if Tomura doesn't care much for his followers, they certainly care about him and are loyal to him personally. (Of course, this varies too; some are more in it for the end goal, or just to to get their jollies being evil. But the ones that get the most focus are loyal.)
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 00:39
|
|
|
Shigaraki goes from saying "I'm the next leader" when he first meets Overhaul to "We'll be the next leaders" at the end.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 01:04
|
|
|
Tenebrais posted:It's also probably worth noticing that the Hissaikai weren't loyal to Overhaul, all their loyalties were distinctly to the old boss, and they only followed Overhaul out of respect for the chain of command. No one seemed to particularly like Overhaul. Meanwhile, even if Tomura doesn't care much for his followers, they certainly care about him and are loyal to him personally. (Of course, this varies too; some are more in it for the end goal, or just to to get their jollies being evil. But the ones that get the most focus are loyal.) A few of Overhaul's men liked him specifically. Shin Nemoto and Chronostasis in particular. I think Mimic as well. Most were either suicidal/purposeless, afraid, or, as you say, more loyal to the institution than to him, and of course Rappa literally wanted to kill him, but he did have a few "friends". Of course, given what happened to Shin, that might have all been one-way, outside maybe Chrono, but the exceptions were still important. Fabricated posted:Shigaraki goes from saying "I'm the next leader" when he first meets Overhaul to "We'll be the next leaders" at the end. Yeah, that's a good, simple indicator of how he's changed over the course of this arc.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 01:07
|
|
|
Fair enough to all the people arguing for Shigaraki genuinely caring for the League. I concede that.Tenebrais posted:It's also probably worth noticing that the Hissaikai weren't loyal to Overhaul, all their loyalties were distinctly to the old boss, and they only followed Overhaul out of respect for the chain of command. No one seemed to particularly like Overhaul. Meanwhile, even if Tomura doesn't care much for his followers, they certainly care about him and are loyal to him personally. (Of course, this varies too; some are more in it for the end goal, or just to to get their jollies being evil. But the ones that get the most focus are loyal.) As Roland notes, he had a few people very loyal to him. The arc gave me strong flashbacks to Naruto and specifically Orochimaru and Kimimaro. "In my darkest hour he appeared to me and saved me and I will pledge my undying loyalty to him no matter what he does to me or others."
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 01:12
|
|
|
During All For One’s big final battle he was legitimately angry at All Might for having put away so many of his allies. Just as much as All Might was a symbol for hero society, All For One was the symbol for villain society, and Shigaraki is slowly moving towards becoming the next symbol. It’s what really makes All for One and Shigaraki cool characters, because they are such direct parallels to All Might and Midoriya and even share some of their positive qualities, just flipped around to apply to villainy instead of heroism. Augus fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Jan 30, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 01:14
|
|
|
Toga’s interest in Stain is at least somewhat multi-faceted. She likes blood yes, but she also explicitly wants a society where she can live free and happy, which not the same as what Stain wanted but is the same change society ideal. Plus Stain and her both have to ingest blood to use their quirks which in her cracked mind probably makes their connection even stronger. Augus posted:During All For One’s big final battle he was legitimately angry at All Might for having put away so many of his allies. Just as much as All Might was a symbol for hero society, All For One was the symbol for villain society, and Shigaraki is slowly moving towards becoming the next symbol. Also this, All for One may or may not have truly cared for his people, but he definitely made it look like he did, and Shigaraki is being guided in those footsteps, so him developing actual care and the real power of friendship is a solid arc to read into his stuff this season.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 04:15
|
|
|
Its worth noting that Toga also wants to kill Stain and then become him, because she's just that kind of crazy gal. She doesn't care about his ideology specifically, she just wants him for his body in the most literal sense possible. She joined the League to get closer to that and also because its tough for her to be herself in polite society. Toga's interesting in that her Quirk seems to have radically affected her personality, since she's obsessed with peoples blood and with transforming into people she's attracted to. No other character revolves around their quirk to the same extent iirc.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 12:10
|
|
|
Nephthys posted:Its worth noting that Toga also wants to kill Stain and then become him, because she's just that kind of crazy gal. She doesn't care about his ideology specifically, she just wants him for his body in the most literal sense possible. She joined the League to get closer to that and also because its tough for her to be herself in polite society. Twice. He's the way he is because of the self-cloning incident.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 13:19
|
|
|
Once cloned, Twice shy
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 13:54
|
|
|
Jackard posted:Once cloned, Twice shy Never trust anyone, not even yourself.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 15:13
|
|
|
Nephthys posted:Its worth noting that Toga also wants to kill Stain and then become him, because she's just that kind of crazy gal. She doesn't care about his ideology specifically, she just wants him for his body in the most literal sense possible. She joined the League to get closer to that and also because its tough for her to be herself in polite society. I think Toga is a really great antagonist. Her interactions with Uraraka and Tsu during the training camp were good, her mega-crush on Deku, and that she actually thinks when under pressure make her a lot of fun to watch. Also she has fantastic murder faces when she gets angry
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 15:42
|
|
|
This is impressively clean product placement. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 15:56
|
|
|
Blaze Dragon posted:This is impressively clean product placement. Deku stole the 10th Anniversary All Might poster from Nighteye's office!
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 16:30
|
|
|
Rhonne posted:Deku stole the 10th Anniversary All Might poster from Nighteye's office! Well, it's not like he needs it any more.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 16:48
|
|
|
“Oh noooo, all this rare merch is going to be thrown away. I’ll take it off your hands...”
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 17:01
|
|
|
Nephthys posted:Its worth noting that Toga also wants to kill Stain and then become him, because she's just that kind of crazy gal. She doesn't care about his ideology specifically, she just wants him for his body in the most literal sense possible. She joined the League to get closer to that and also because its tough for her to be herself in polite society. Remember mind control guy who, in spite of having a traditionally evil power, really wanted to be a hero? How many villains have had clearly evil quirks and were thus evil? Usually any blood-related power is pretty evil and Stain and Toga are both bad guys. Shigaraki can decay and destroys people and that's a pretty horrifying power so he's evil. I don't think we've seen any heroes since brainwash kid that have "evil" quirks.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 17:05
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:I don't think we've seen any heroes since brainwash kid that have "evil" quirks. There's Gang Orca, the terrifying monster with a scream that blasts people away.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 17:13
|
|
|
Tokoyami straight-up went berserk during the Camp Raid.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 17:25
|
|
|
What defines an "evil" quirk though? Endeavor sets people on fire for a living, 13 creates mini black holes that can suck anything up, Tokoyami has a crazy shadow spirit that gets more violent in the dark, and Mina can melt people's faces off with her acid. Would you call any of those quirks "evil"?
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 17:26
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:How many villains have had clearly evil quirks and were thus evil? Usually any blood-related power is pretty evil and Stain and Toga are both bad guys. Shigaraki can decay and destroys people and that's a pretty horrifying power so he's evil. Vlad has a blood quirk and is doing just fine as a hero. Also there is the meat cube boy who just showed up again last episode.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 17:28
|
|
|
Rhonne posted:What defines an "evil" quirk though? Endeavor sets people on fire for a living, 13 creates mini black holes that can suck anything up, Tokoyami has a crazy shadow spirit that gets more violent in the dark, and Mina can melt people's faces off with her acid. Would you call any of those quirks "evil"? please note that if anyone has the gall to call my good friend dark shadow evil then i will slay you with a mighty kung fu chop
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 17:31
|
|
|
Rhonne posted:What defines an "evil" quirk though? Endeavor sets people on fire for a living, 13 creates mini black holes that can suck anything up, Tokoyami has a crazy shadow spirit that gets more violent in the dark, and Mina can melt people's faces off with her acid. Would you call any of those quirks "evil"? I guess it's all in how the narrative presents it. Yes, Mina could do some horrific damage with her quirk but she's mostly just used it to...skate around? We're never going to see her burn off somebody's face. @ all the examples given Fair enough. I guess I'm just saying it's no surprise Toga is a bad person with a quirk like that. Just as Twice's quirk turned him into a crazy man. If you have the power to disintegrate people with a touch, it's very possible you're gonna end up ostracized by society. It's unsurprising these folks ended up as bad people with the powers they were burdened with is all I was trying to say.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 17:39
|
|
|
Centipeder is a good man with a horrifying visage and Quirk
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 18:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 12:40 |
|
|
Even among the core League members, Toga is the only person with a distinctly bad guy quirk. Even Shigaraki could spend his time decaying rubble after disasters and stuff if he felt like it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2020 18:22
|
|
