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sexpig by night posted:Like, what's endgame here? If they know can’t win the next elections because they have done this and they are unwilling to accept that consequence... Full fascism. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 07:22 on Jan 30, 2020 |
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Jan 30, 2020 07:18
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empty whippet box posted:Did he wait until midnight to do this or was this from earlier? Apparently just now.
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Jan 30, 2020 07:18
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My reaction to that is "well of course he was" but I want nothing more than for this to result in Graham getting loving chaos dunked on until he turns beet red and cries
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Jan 30, 2020 07:22
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Of course he knew about it, he’s been sleep by at Trumps feet the moment after McCain was put in the ground. Guaranteed Trump brags and rambles about committing crimes to all the GOP because he thinks they work for him.
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Jan 30, 2020 07:24
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SubG posted:For anyone who isn't familiar with early US political history, Dersh is painfully, Constitutional History 101-level wrong here. While most of the founders opposed the idea of entrenched political parties, they understood it was a possibility. In fact, Hamilton brought up this exact issue in the Federalist, where he noted that impeachment could be stopped by partisanship in the senate. He argued that having the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court preside over the trial would mitigate the problem because SCoTUS judges are lifetime appointees who aren't beholden to anyone, and by necessity they have an abundance of legal knowledge. But of course, judges can be partisans too, and the Constitution doesn't give the justice any real power.
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Jan 30, 2020 07:31
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Is Roberts in a position to demand Graham recuse himself? Can Roberts declare a 'mistrial'?
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Jan 30, 2020 07:46
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Dapper_Swindler posted:Parnas just said on Anderson Cooper that Lindsay Graham knew about the Ukraine scheme and was in the loop. Least surprising thing ever. I did find it interesting that he was strangely quiet as a mouse today in the chamber. Parnas would not say this if he didn't have proof. So there is going to be another shoe to drop here. As for what their end game is at this point I have no idea. I assume that enough of the members are connected to Trump badly enough that they know their future is tied to him. It does seem incredibly stupid to jump off this cliff though knowing how high the percentage of the public wants testimony, how it will just come out anyway and everyone that votes against witnesses and to not convict Trump is going to have that as a noose around their necks through November. You are effectively giving up 4 seats, probably more and likely the majority and for what? To get another 11 months of a Presidency where you can't accomplish anything anyway? To smear a guy that isn't going to win the nomination anyway? Like I know the White House doesn't have anyone who knows their rear end from their elbow but these Senators have to have pretty smart staff and the outside advisors have to be telling them the smart thing to do here. Hell I would almost believe if they went to Democratic leadership and told them that if they laid off Pence, allowed him to finish the term and he promised to not run they would remove Trump they would take it. The only other answer is they are all complicit with this, which frankly it is seeming increasingly likely and I am not a  guy in the least.
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Jan 30, 2020 07:53
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Most of the GOP Senate is more vulnerable to getting primaried by Trumpists than losing in the general. If they carry Trump's water they might be hosed. If they don't they will be hosed.
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Jan 30, 2020 08:11
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Dapper_Swindler posted:Parnas just said on Anderson Cooper that Lindsay Graham knew about the Ukraine scheme and was in the loop.
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Jan 30, 2020 08:12
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:Most of the GOP Senate is more vulnerable to getting primaried by Trumpists than losing in the general. If they carry Trump's water they might be hosed. If they don't they will be hosed. I don't buy that this is the case, nor do I believe this is the underlying reason we see for lockstep acquittal. At this point, any calculus by a senator based on future election outcomes is guesswork. No, the strong wall (that seems to maybe be cracking?) demands a stronger explanation.
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Jan 30, 2020 08:27
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:Most of the GOP Senate is more vulnerable to getting primaried by Trumpists than losing in the general. If they carry Trump's water they might be hosed. If they don't they will be hosed. Honestly if they are that vulnerable they would be getting primaried already. There is little chance for taking them out on the right flank, even if they do have a super Trumper running against them it isn't like Trump would be on the ticket so there is little incentive for them to come out and vote. The primary threat is overblown and bullshit cover. Now they are giving huge meaty vulnerabilities on their left flanks in the general and in turn generating incentive for those that might have stayed home to go out and vote against them and Trump. I understand not being too worried if you are Shelley Capito for example where if you lose 10% of your vote you still going to get elected. But someone like Joni Ernst who even 5% would cause you to lose your seat is just insane to me.
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Jan 30, 2020 08:43
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The GOP through its media control has spent the last forty years or more building a team-sports vision of politics. You are on their team or you are the opposition. If they do something it's good, if the opposition do something, it's bad. If you are not sufficiently on their team, you'll get tossed aside and no true Scotsmanned. Hence terms like RINO, cuckservative, etc to describe Republicans who step too far outside party orthodoxy. Admitting that the team may have done something bad, puts you off the team because the team cannot be bad.
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Jan 30, 2020 08:43
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:Most of the GOP Senate is more vulnerable to getting primaried by Trumpists than losing in the general. If they carry Trump's water they might be hosed. If they don't they will be hosed. You have to preface this with, 'in a normal year,'
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Jan 30, 2020 08:44
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Let's not forget that keeping the faith means you'll be welcomed to the loving embrace of the right wing grift and lobby mill if you go down swinging for the team.
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Jan 30, 2020 08:51
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Helen Highwater posted:The GOP through its media control has spent the last forty years or more building a team-sports vision of politics. You are on their team or you are the opposition. If they do something it's good, if the opposition do something, it's bad. If you are not sufficiently on their team, you'll get tossed aside and no true Scotsmanned. Hence terms like RINO, cuckservative, etc to describe Republicans who step too far outside party orthodoxy.
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Jan 30, 2020 08:52
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Helen Highwater posted:The GOP through its media control has spent the last forty years or more building a team-sports vision of politics. You are on their team or you are the opposition. If they do something it's good, if the opposition do something, it's bad. If you are not sufficiently on their team, you'll get tossed aside and no true Scotsmanned. Hence terms like RINO, cuckservative, etc to describe Republicans who step too far outside party orthodoxy. With this though it is starting to break all of that. Like the trying to say John loving Bolton is a RINO or a Liberal Puppet is a loving joke and you saw how much traction it got in the Right Wing today. The arguments have become laughable to even those that drink the Kool-Aid now. I know one person in personally today that broke because of Bolton. I imagine there were a lot of them.
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Jan 30, 2020 08:56
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:Let's not forget that keeping the faith means you'll be welcomed to the loving embrace of the right wing grift and lobby mill if you go down swinging for the team. Lobbying maybe, but the amount of fox jobs and the like is waaaay smaller than the number of potentially out of work republican congressmen
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Jan 30, 2020 08:57
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Uglycat posted:Is Roberts in a position to demand Graham recuse himself? According to comments made by Chief Justice Rehnquist after Clinton’s impeachment, the position is 100% ceremonial and the Senate actually controls the entire procedure.
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Jan 30, 2020 09:07
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that duck posted:While most of the founders opposed the idea of entrenched political parties, they understood it was a possibility. In fact, Hamilton brought up this exact issue in the Federalist, where he noted that impeachment could be stopped by partisanship in the senate. He argued that having the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court preside over the trial would mitigate the problem because SCoTUS judges are lifetime appointees who aren't beholden to anyone, and by necessity they have an abundance of legal knowledge. But of course, judges can be partisans too, and the Constitution doesn't give the justice any real power. My point was just that Dershowitz was implicitly arguing about the Framers' intent with a bunch of hidden presumptions about the current two-party system, which is a hopeless anachronism.
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Jan 30, 2020 09:11
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Grouchio posted:Where else in recent, say european, history has this phenomenon been applied to political machines? If any were dismantled in the past, how? Murdock has control of the media in both Australia and somewhat in the UK. In Australia he has played both sides and in the UK he has generally favored those on the Right but has played ball with the Left as well. What the GOP has created in America is somewhat unique. After Nixon was impeached many that lost their power in the aftermath wanted to make sure it never happened again. You had the a perfect storm of unethical, angry men and business that just learned that if they band together and throw their money and weight around they will get their way. With Reagan they were able to co-opt the televangelist wave to help indoctrinate that demographic. At the same time media ownership and content rules were changed and they used small, local radio to push their ideas and agenda. Fast forward to the early 90s and you get to see the fruits of 15 years of labor with the Republican Revolution of 94 which brought the first wave of this new, modern conservative. Over the next decade you saw the Goldwater conservatives leave to be replaced with these more radical conservatives. Now we have the first generation entirely raised on this Right Wing media machine in which they eat from the bullshit hose. They don't have a set of values anymore and there seems to be little coherent strategy anymore than grift and keep their electorate outraged about something. Granted many of these tactics have been used by other groups in recent years. The current "outrage/cancel" culture comes directly from the RWM playbook. It is no better when it is on the other hand but it is just as effective. The only way to dismantle this would be multifold, first you have to vote out those on the right with progressives. Next, you need to reimplement strict media ownership rules and content rules again. You would likely have to implement rules for new media as well, which will be a hard fight. At the same time you need to change education in the country. Ethics and government need to be taught in schools and from a younger age.
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Jan 30, 2020 09:18
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Djarum posted:Murdock has control of the media in both Australia and somewhat in the UK. In Australia he has played both sides and in the UK he has generally favored those on the Right but has played ball with the Left as well. 
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Jan 30, 2020 09:22
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Djarum posted:Least surprising thing ever. I did find it interesting that he was strangely quiet as a mouse today in the chamber. I could very well imagine that there are some senators that wanted to make money of the Ukrainian LNG company so much so that they got involved with this scam in a way that could ruin their careers. They are used to getting away with everything. They literally have a propaganda arm to tell their voters "nothing to see hear. Be concerned with those corrupt democrats." whenever they do something wrong. I bet most of these senators that through propaganda, gerrymandering, being in solid red states, and voter suppression feel invincible. The other thought I have about it is that maybe they know that if they vote against Trump their base will crucify them because they have spent the last three years building up Trumpism and the last forty years driving their base ever further rightward so much so that they have become radicalized. I believe its the latter because of occam's razor, but I really cannot discount the former.
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Jan 30, 2020 10:31
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Djarum posted:Murdock has control of the media in both Australia and somewhat in the UK. In Australia he has played both sides and in the UK he has generally favored those on the Right but has played ball with the Left as well. Sorry for the double post but this was an awesome post
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Jan 30, 2020 10:40
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ManBoyChef posted:I could very well imagine that there are some senators that wanted to make money of the Ukrainian LNG company so much so that they got involved with this scam in a way that could ruin their careers. They are used to getting away with everything. They literally have a propaganda arm to tell their voters "nothing to see hear. Be concerned with those corrupt democrats." whenever they do something wrong. I bet most of these senators that through propaganda, gerrymandering, being in solid red states, and voter suppression feel invincible. The other thought I have about it is that maybe they know that if they vote against Trump their base will crucify them because they have spent the last three years building up Trumpism and the last forty years driving their base ever further rightward so much so that they have become radicalized. I believe its the latter because of occam's razor, but I really cannot discount the former. I could almost see the LNG angle. Although if that is the truth it would have leaked out immediately if for no other reason than to cushion the blow to the base. No, I think that this might have been a plan from the entire GOP to pull this Biden scam. When you think about it Trump isn’t that smart to come up with this plan on his own. From what we know already there was work in 2018 to cause trouble in Ukraine, likely laying groundwork for what was an obvious Biden run. How much you bet it was cooked up at a GOP meeting and presented to Trump which they would have gotten away with it too had there not been a whistleblower complaint. If you look at how thorough the coverup was it would have not come out that Trump extorted Ukraine for years if ever. When word of the aide being held up would have been dealt with by a “corruption concern” defense.
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Jan 30, 2020 10:48
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Djarum posted:I could almost see the LNG angle. Although if that is the truth it would have leaked out immediately if for no other reason than to cushion the blow to the base. That is a very good point. I could see them pulling those kind of shenanigans. I bet they have maybe a little insider information that the DNC is going to push Biden. I mean these people that are in league with the corporations are pretty much all with eachother in an attempt to push a very pro corporate agenda.
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Jan 30, 2020 11:23
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ManBoyChef posted:That is a very good point. I could see them pulling those kind of shenanigans. I bet they have maybe a little insider information that the DNC is going to push Biden. I mean these people that are in league with the corporations are pretty much all with eachother in an attempt to push a very pro corporate agenda. Well let’s look at facts, Biden running was already being hinted at in June/July of 2018. He was always beating Trump in polls as far back at 2016. But I think the Rudy in Ukraine fiasco started as a way to get cover for pardoning Manafort and to prove to perhaps only himself that Russia really didn’t cause him to win in 2016. From what reporting has been done that seems to be what the goal was. At some point this Biden thing was hatched. And what seems crazy is that it really does seem like it is one of those insane Right Wing conspiracy theories come to life. Which considering how much they project makes you wonder how many times something like this has been pulled off and they haven’t gotten caught.
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Jan 30, 2020 11:43
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Djarum posted:Well let’s look at facts, Biden running was already being hinted at in June/July of 2018. He was always beating Trump in polls as far back at 2016. It is easy to think that these republicans have had a steady diet of RWM so they may actually believe these conspiracy theories. I could imagine trump being just prideful enough to want to put the election interference on Ukraine so it doesn't look like he got help from Russia. He really can't just take the win. I think best case scenario is that this scandal takes out some senators. I'm hoping that the democrats actually do something with this information and hold the GOP accountable but the problem is a lot of the dems are just as corrupt and they will not want to rock the boat. Our political system has become so toxic.
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Jan 30, 2020 11:51
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Dapper_Swindler posted:Parnas just said on Anderson Cooper that Lindsay Graham knew about the Ukraine scheme and was in the loop. Dear god, I know you're not listening because you're not there, but if you are there, please just gently caress Lindsey Graham's poo poo right up fam
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Jan 30, 2020 13:32
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The “public interest” argument is so batshit insane that it’d fit perfectly in Catch-22. Joseph Heller would’ve been stumped at this level of circular corruption.
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Jan 30, 2020 13:41
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Djarum posted:Murdock has control of the media in both Australia and somewhat in the UK. In Australia he has played both sides and in the UK he has generally favored those on the Right but has played ball with the Left as well. He owns The Sun, which has its own version for the UK and Ireland. There were plenty of times during Brexit where the UK version would be frothing mad 'HOW DARE THOSE IRISH DONT THEY KNOW WHO WE ARE' while the Irish version would be frothing 'HOW DARE THOSE BRITISH TELL US WHAT TO DO'.
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Jan 30, 2020 14:32
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Uglycat posted:Is Roberts in a position to demand Graham recuse himself? John Roberts is not going to save us. He's republican scum who wants nothing more than for Trump to be acquitted and for this to be over so he can go back to his day job of making it harder for black people to vote for democrats.
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Jan 30, 2020 15:07
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Lobbying maybe, but the amount of fox jobs and the like is waaaay smaller than the number of potentially out of work republican congressmen Fox jobs are for when you still have ambition. No show lobbying jobs are for collecting your deferred compensation.
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Jan 30, 2020 15:09
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Dapper_Swindler posted:Parnas just said on Anderson Cooper that Lindsay Graham knew about the Ukraine scheme and was in the loop. Yes but does he have the receipts?
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Jan 30, 2020 15:12
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Doctor Butts posted:Yes but does he have the receipts? historical precedent says he's waiting for trump to deny it. I hope.
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Jan 30, 2020 15:14
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For what it's worth I think it's better politically for D's if the Republicans just deny witnesses and acquit him tomorrow. Then they are yoked forever to anything that comes out after the fact and Bolton is going on a loving book tour.
mcmagic fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Jan 30, 2020 |
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Jan 30, 2020 15:28
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mcmagic posted:For what it's worth I think it's better politically for D's if the Republicans just deny witnesses and acquit him tomorrow. Then they are yoked forever to anything that comes out after the after and Bolton is going on a loving book tour. yea I mean I think it should have witnesses just as a basic justice issue and all but if the right is really gonna go full speedrun on this a month out of a very bitter ex-employee about to do a book tour that's nothing but a W for dems in the big picture.
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Jan 30, 2020 15:31
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note that, even if witnesses aren't happening, there would still be closing arguments (likely one full day) and however long deliberations take (for clinton, 3 days, even though everyone knew which way the vote was going, but presumably less time here)
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Jan 30, 2020 15:32
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Relying on Roberts for anything is a bad idea, not because he's a partisan hack, but because he certainly views his job just like Rehnquist did. When asked after Clinton's impeachment what role he played, he responded "I did nothing in particular, and I did it very well." Roberts will 100% do the same thing. And even if he were to try to do something different, and even if that thing were to be bad for Trump, it only takes 51 senators voting to overrule him. His role is entirely ceremonial. The only thing Roberts could possibly provide is meat on the bones of some spin and media work to make Republicans look bad for voting to overrule him. But there is zero chance of him ever putting himself in a position for that to happen to him. No matter what you think of him, he is a calculating person looking out for his own interests, and he is legitimately extremely smart, unlike 95% of the GOP. Sub Par fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Jan 30, 2020 |
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Jan 30, 2020 15:32
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Sub Par posted:Relying on Roberts for anything is a bad idea, not because he's a partisan hack, but because he certainly views his job just like Rehnquist did. When asked after Clinton's impeachment what role he played, he responded "I did nothing in particular, and I did it very well." Roberts will 100% do the same thing. And even if he were to try to do something different, and even if that thing were to be bad for Trump, it only takes 51 senators voting to overrule him. His role is entirely ceremonial. this is why it's a loving disaster for Roberts if the vote on witnesses is 50/50 (collins, murk, romney) and it's up to him it's basically lose/lose in that scenario, support republicans and have the entire democratic base furious at you and even more eager to pack the court, support democrats and have the MAGA hordes go insane, led by trump on twitter
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Jan 30, 2020 15:34
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eke out posted:this is why it's a loving disaster for Roberts if the vote on witnesses is 50/50 (collins, murk, romney) and it's up to him Isn't a 50-50 vote up to Pence, not him?
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Jan 30, 2020 15:35
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