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tarlibone posted:Janet isn't going on without her friends. She straight-up told Jason that she's basically Dr. Manhattan when it comes to... experiencing... time.... Well this one didn't mention it until the very last minute, so very much the Watchmen.
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Jan 31, 2020 15:53
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Kegslayer posted:As somebody who's lost friends and family to suicide, the ending was complete garbage. The suicide door aspect is a black mark on what was otherwise a very good episode about death.
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Jan 31, 2020 16:02
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I think the show did a great job with the premise of choosing to end an eternal afterlife once you've accomplished everything you've ever wanted to do after countless human lifetimes.
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Jan 31, 2020 16:10
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PostNouveau posted:The suicide door aspect is a black mark on what was otherwise a very good episode about death. it's not really suicide so much as accepting that as a sentient being you are not intended to exist forever in stasis we just don't have a better word for a being choosing to turn itself off permanently in a happy way
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Jan 31, 2020 16:33
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luxury handset posted:it's not really suicide so much as accepting that as a sentient being you are not intended to exist forever in stasis It's 100% suicide. Them finding a way to write it so that suicide is the "right choice" is irresponsible. The episode is an excellent statement on life and death, but it cannot simultaneously be about characters choosing to die and also not be about suicide. Jason leaving is about the viewer coping with a friend dying. Chidi leaving is about coping with a spouse dying. Eleanor leaving is about coping with your own mortality. This is really clear; I doubt anyone would disagree on this. You can't pivot away from the central message of the episode and say "but no this isn't really about 'death', just a very particular metaphysical trap the characters have been placed in." I'll reiterate: I thought this was a very good episode of television. One of their best. Probably one of the best episodes of TV this season. PostNouveau fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Jan 31, 2020 |
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Jan 31, 2020 16:43
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PostNouveau posted:Well this one didn't mention it until the very last minute, so very much the Watchmen. I dunno. The Good Place waiting until its very final minutes to poo poo itself with ineffable timetravel crap was a lot better than Watchmen doing so 2/3 of the way through
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Jan 31, 2020 16:48
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Mameluke posted:I dunno. The Good Place waiting until its very final minutes to poo poo itself with ineffable timetravel crap was a lot better than Watchmen doing so 2/3 of the way through I actually don't know when that came up in Watchmen, now that you mention it. It's so central to Dr. Manhattan that it's hard for me to take it from the point of view of someone who didn't know the character going into the show.
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Jan 31, 2020 16:51
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Death with dignity is a human rights necessity. Faced with a continual and inevitable degridation of one's faculties and quality of life, the option to cease consciousness - from a position of informed consent - ought to be an inalienable right. No spouse or parent or child or friend gets to tell me "no" if I'm looking at Alzheimer's and decide I don't want to deteriorate. Yes, all death leaves people behind. But so do breakups. Human connections are fleeting and fragile and we do NOT owe each other unconditional, endless connection.
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Jan 31, 2020 16:52
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DoctorWhat posted:Death with dignity is a human rights necessity. Faced with a continual and inevitable degridation of one's faculties and quality of life, the option to cease consciousness - from a position of informed consent - ought to be an inalienable right. No spouse or parent or child or friend gets to tell me "no" if I'm looking at Alzheimer's and decide I don't want to deteriorate. I think this is the most eloquent summary of why the show did succeed in sticking the landing with a message that is completely consistent with the rest of the show. It reminds me of the Terry Pratchett documentary “Choosing to Die.”
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Jan 31, 2020 16:57
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Interesting. I took it as more on the side of 'euthanasia' rather than 'suicide', but I guess there isn't that large of a difference between them depending on your viewpoint.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:01
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PostNouveau posted:It's 100% suicide. Them finding a way to write it so that suicide is the "right choice" is irresponsible. it's not suicide really. we think of suicide as an untimely, tragic death based in some aspect of despair but that isn't a choice that means anything in an endless, happy existence where you have all the time you need to come to grips with the inevitability of a conclusion to your existence as mentioned above, we have another word - euthanasia - for self-ending when that can be seen as a reasonable choice. we'd need another word entirely to capture one's exit from heaven after the generous offer of taking all the time you need to accept the inevitable, that all things have a conclusion at some point PostNouveau posted:You can't pivot away from the central message of the episode and say "but no this isn't really about 'death', you misunderstand me. i'm not saying it's not about death, i'm saying it's not about suicide. the idea of suicide doesn't really exist in a post-death afterlife. while it's not wrong to think of the door as a suicide door, it's not really right either
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Jan 31, 2020 17:01
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I couldn't stop crying. Wonderful.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:03
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It's a small touch, but I loved the fact that Michael's letter was a Shopper's Rewards Card. A prize for gaining a stack of 'points'.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:08
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ApplesandOranges posted:I'm trying to think of anyone we might have missed in the last episode and the only one that comes to mind is Chidi's friend with the cowboy boots? Unless he was somewhere and I missed it. I was kinda hoping for a final scene with him, as well as one with Eleanor's mom. And Trevor. But on the whole I felt like they did enough with the side characters. I honestly loved every second of it. I cried far more than I thought I would. I actually screamed when Jason jumped from behind the tree, and I loved that he basically turned into a monk by the end. Janet seeing everyone off was very fitting. With the revelation of how she experiences time, it was almost like she was an audience surrogate for a moment. Jason, Chidi, and Eleanor are still alive for her, just as they're still alive for us. D'Arcy Carden is a goddamn wonder with the subtle emotions she can portray with the slightest movements. I really hope we get to see a lot more of her in the future. I love that Tahani decided to stay. Her dedication to bettering herself even though she was already in the Good Place was an excellent choice, and I really like that not everyone left. That would have been too easy. I wasn't ready, I'm still not ready, and now I have to lead a meeting and will probably burst into tears in the middle of it because I'll think of Chidi's goodbye. Or Tahani and her family. or Janet watching her friends disappear.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:08
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I do think that it is reasonable to view it as a suicide door. The show was about what we owe to each other, and yes, we don't owe it to people to stick around when we are terminally ill, or to stay in any specific relationship, but part of being a good person is trying to help the people around you. I thought the idea of the door would be more that people need the option, they don't have to actually take it so long as it is there. Tahani deciding to stick around and help people makes her seem like the only character that really understood the moral message of the show.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:17
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PostNouveau posted:It's 100% suicide. Them finding a way to write it so that suicide is the "right choice" is irresponsible. I think the piece that's not connecting for you is the "living a fulfilling (after)life" aspect. Suicide is untimely. Suicide, generally speaking, is people ending their existence because of the crushing weight of existence. People have different reasons for doing it, but we have such finite time on this planet that suicide always seems tragic. With The Good Place, they literally have eternity. People are walking through the door because they can't handle afterlife, they're walking through the door because they've been able to live a thousand thousand lifetimes and they feel fulfilled. Complete. I like the analogy to end of life euthanasia. For comparison's sake, my mother had to care for my grandfather when he developed dementia after my grandmother's passing. For her, that was far harder to experience than had he just passed away peacefully. She has told me that if, when she is elderly, she develops dementia or alzheimers, she wishes to travel to a state where it is legal and go through with assisted euthanasia. I don't begrudge her this decision because the alternative is watching her deteriorate into a shadow of herself. When she passes, I would much prefer to remember her as someone who lives (and dies) by her own terms.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:18
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One thing I noticed right away was that Tahini stopped dropping names. That was a nice, subtle clue that she had really grown in the afterlife. Of course, she did drop one name right at the end, but everyone else lampshaded it, and she acknowleged that it was something that she deserved to be made fun of about. It wasn't a huge thing, but I do like that they actually had her stopped dropping the names. She was doing that right up through the penultimate episode, so was a neat way to show some growth.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:18
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mcbexx posted:Kristen Bell has old woman hands. Sorry, going to need you to go through the test again.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:22
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BigBallChunkyTime posted:That one needs to be explained to me. It's from the show Friday Night Lights. The Dillon Panthers are the main focus for much of the show, but it later pivots to the poorer school, the East Dillon Lions (Where Michael B Jordan is the quarterback). Its just a more obscure reference.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:25
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Sub Rosa posted:Tahani deciding to stick around and help people makes her seem like the only character that really understood the moral message of the show. tahani reached the nearest thing there is to reincarnation in this afterlife, ending her human existence and starting a new one as a pseudo-angel. whether or not she'll eventually go through the door is an open question, she may still be a human after all and human lives are meant to end at some point. but who knows, her new existence may be infinitely fulfilling
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Jan 31, 2020 17:25
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Kegslayer posted:You might feel that you've accomplished all you've set out to do in life but I can tell you for a fact that the hole you leave in your absence will never, ever be filled. Eleanor should have looked at that calender and then broken down forever because hey, that's what happens in real life. You can't tell anyone that, you've only lived a fraction of your mortal life so far, and at best you will live for only as long as your entire life. These people are already dead, real life is over, they're in a metaphysical world. The door is not the same thing as suicide, suicide is an abrupt end because the pain of existing _in life_ got to be too much for someone, and they leave knowing the hole it will leave.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:30
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Heaven is pretty poo poo if you want to end your existence after being there. I dunno, the concept just falls down to me. It's too human, it's too basic.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:32
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Kegslayer posted:As somebody who's lost friends and family to suicide, the ending was complete garbage. I think the idea of reaching a sense of accomplishment and contentment so profound that you're comfortable slipping out of existence is fairly divorced from what whatever struggle most suicidal people irl face.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:33
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Taear posted:I dunno, the concept just falls down to me. It's too human, it's too basic. well, you're still human, even in heaven. if you're not human, is it you who is really there? if you can't get bored or sad in heaven, is it really heaven? on an infinite time scale, if you can get bored, then it's possible to experience infinite boredom, which is the condition of the good place before the door - a place that will inevitably crush you like a prison. the door is symbolic of the idea that heaven won't turn into hell eventually by trapping people in an unnatural existence
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Jan 31, 2020 17:34
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Taear posted:Heaven is pretty poo poo if you want to end your existence after being there. They are still humans. They never stop being humans. For me it works perfectly.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:34
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If being in heaven so fundamentally changed my modes of thinking that I would be immune to boredom or complex emotions that would be murder - the system would have annihilated me and replaced me with some new, derivative person. If it "cured" my autism or ADHD that would be murder too. I don't think "too human" is a reasonable criticism. The show is about what being human is.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:37
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Taear posted:Heaven is pretty poo poo if you want to end your existence after being there. I think that's kind of in keeping with the premise of the show, though. It takes the idea "what if the afterlife was this finite, comprehensive bureaucratic system that's essentially run by humans?", rather than it being this unknowable thing that we generally have understood it to be. I think the idea that even Heaven is a place where you can continue to grow, but also ultimately become restless is a logical conclusion to that premise.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:37
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Taear posted:Heaven is pretty poo poo if you want to end your existence after being there. What do you even mean? What kind of heaven would you not want to end after some infinity percentage of infinity? The only ones I can think of are ones where your agency is literally robbed from you. Like, sometimes Christian heaven is described as just kind of melting into God's glory and we, here on Earth, are just supposed to trust and imagine that "being in God's glory" is way more than the Word says it's cracked up to be. Yes, this system is human. I would argue that's a good thing. Name a religion or metaphysical belief more kind and just than the system in the finale. I really don't think there is one.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:44
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DoctorWhat posted:If being in heaven so fundamentally changed my modes of thinking that I would be immune to boredom or complex emotions that would be murder - the system would have annihilated me and replaced me with some new, derivative person. If it "cured" my autism or ADHD that would be murder too. I don't think "too human" is a reasonable criticism. The show is about what being human is. Except that this sort of identity philosophy is dumb. What being human is isn't about being static and unchangeable. There is continuity of identity through change. The Buddhist concept of dependent origination is exactly what the wave story is about. The wave changes as it comes to shore, but it's still recognizable as being the same wave as changes happen right up until it is no longer a wave. To say that you are murdered by changing means that three year old you was murdered by four year old you. That's just silly. There would still be that continuity of identity if your autism were cured.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:49
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Memory erasure would have been a good choice too. Just the act in itself is not unethical in this case, but just rather how it was used. I was disappointed they didn't explore that aspect beyond "lol no"
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Jan 31, 2020 17:53
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Sub Rosa posted:Except that this sort of identity philosophy is dumb. What being human is isn't about being static and unchangeable. There is continuity of identity through change. The Buddhist concept of dependent origination is exactly what the wave story is about. The wave changes as it comes to shore, but it's still recognizable as being the same wave as changes happen right up until it is no longer a wave. To say that you are murdered by changing means that three year old you was murdered by four year old you. That's just silly. There would still be that continuity of identity if your autism were cured. As someone who also has ADHD, it's not at all the same thing. There's a difference between growing naturally and snapping your fingers and having an inextricable part of your mind altered as if it was never there.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:56
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The person I was 5 years ago and the person I am now are in many ways radically different. Part of that is developing brain chemestry - I've only just turned 25 - but most of it is the memories I've made and the lessons I've learned from my experiences. That's different from having my neurodivergence magically lobotomized away.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:58
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I also have ADHD and I'm not being annihilated when my meds kick in. I also wouldn't be annihilated when perfect heaven meds kick in.
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Jan 31, 2020 17:59
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luxury handset posted:it's not suicide really. we think of suicide as an untimely, tragic death based in some aspect of despair but that isn't a choice that means anything in an endless, happy existence where you have all the time you need to come to grips with the inevitability of a conclusion to your existence I mean if it's about a death you choose, then it's suicide. I can see where y'all are coming from about euthanasia, but I don't think they did a good job making it analogous to people who actually need it here in the real world. The characters aren't turning into mush brains, and they aren't saying existence is intolerable to them. For me, it's not hitting that note right. I can see how it might if your personal experiences line up in the right way that you can empathize with the situation, but I think you should also try to see it from the perspective of people whose experiences don't, like the guy upthread who lost someone to suicide and is monumentally pissed at The Good Place right now.
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Jan 31, 2020 18:00
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PostNouveau posted:I mean if it's about a death you choose, then it's suicide. not really, because the nature of the thought experiment makes 'death' itself a questionable term. everyone involved in this episode 'died' in the first episode of the show, or was never really 'alive' at all. our terminology is slippery since the entire narrative is based in hypothetical afterlives and what that would do to the experience of being human PostNouveau posted:I think you should also try to see it from the perspective of people whose experiences don't, like the guy upthread who lost someone to suicide and is monumentally pissed at The Good Place right now. we can acknowledge someone's interpretation as being colored by personal trauma without agreeing with that interpretation though. i've also lost people i love to suicide, but i'm seeing the finale here through my own reconciliation with death and my inescapable end. one reason i rejected religion is that the idea of infinite heaven always seemed suspicious to me. i fear the process of dying more than i fear non-existence itself, which is just a return to the state you were in before you were born Mr. Fall Down Terror fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Jan 31, 2020 |
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Jan 31, 2020 18:03
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I wanna be clear - I am not opposed to the use of medication to aid in executive function and personal management. A few years ago I had a deep resentment towards my neurodivergencies and would have taken a cure for sure, and was dismissive of many autism self-advocacy groups. But working in special education and childcare has changed my perspective. Non-normative cognition has enabled me, with the support of my coworkers and family and friends, to accomplish some pretty amazing things and help a lot of people. Chidi's compulsion to analyze, his systems-driven thinking, enabled him to restructure the afterlife and uplift his friends.
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Jan 31, 2020 18:04
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I think what it comes down to that I completely buy that in the version of an afterlife depicted in this show, once you've lived a thousand lifetimes and have done everything you could ever imagine, you could indeed feel satisfied and be truly ready for it to end. I can imagine that world even though in our reality it doesn't exist and we won't ever experience that.
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Jan 31, 2020 18:08
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luxury handset posted:not really, because the nature of the thought experiment makes 'death' itself a questionable term. everyone involved in this episode 'died' in the first episode of the show, or was never really 'alive' at all. our terminology is slippery since the entire narrative is based in hypothetical afterlives and what that would do to the experience of being human Eh, alright look I'll just talk about this personally here. For me, it can't simultaneously be about coping with my mortality but then also I can dismiss it as not being about suicide because it's really about this crazy hypothetical afterlife.
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Jan 31, 2020 18:09
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In the concept of the Good Place where you're in "heaven", sometimes its okay to let go into nothingness. Whats wrong with that? It definitely felt like the good place was purgatory where you can work on your character enough to be satisfied. If they're happy with themselves and ready to let go then I don't see a problem in the Good Place
Rabid Snake fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Jan 31, 2020 |
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Jan 31, 2020 18:09
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Kinda reminds me of the ending of the Lucifer comic, he just leaves this existence into the unknown
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Jan 31, 2020 18:11
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