|
Yes indeed something happened but it is not too drastic looking at what has been happening throughout TNG and DS9. After almost losing the Dominion war federation was rebuilding, going more militaristic (defiant, more of its kind, prometheus project and many more) and less explorative, then Janeway comes back with news that borg might still be coming, just not through the transwarp conduit (also species 8472 are still there, plotting their plots). This all should have taken it’s toll on Federation, at least making Federation commanders way more cautious. Forever enemies, the very secretive Romulans are in need, many nations are against helping them because they remember what a bunch of backstabbing dicks romulans are. Then Mars incident happens on the main Federation holiday, while the tensions are still high and politics are involved and it just tips whole political course into what we have now. Its not like FEDURASHION BAD, its just many years of more downs than ups. Believable enough for me. ps we are looking at it through prism of Picard himself ofc and it is implied that he always had the highest standards possible. Erulisse fucked around with this message at 11:45 on Feb 3, 2020 |
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 11:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 19:24 |
|
|
Lizard Combatant posted:Is it mentioned that the Romulans didn't ask for help? And joining the Federation as a prerequisite would be just as lovely a move. Trek 2009 says the Romulans asked Spock for help, specifically. It doesn't elaborate any further than that. Spock tells Kirk "we outfutted our fastest ship" to try and stop the supernova, but again the "we" part is incredibly vague, and the Jellyfish was clearly not a Federation design. Though it was clear that this was the absolute final last ditch effort because Romulus got smoked while Spock was enroute to the explosion, implicitly from Romulus. I could easy see the Romulans being so arrogant and insular that they thought they could just shrug off their capital world's star exploding only to go OHSHI-- moments before the shockwave vaporized the planet.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 11:40
|
|
|
I think we might just be in an argument here, since I feel the key thing is that humans (or just people) in the future are better because they choose to be, which leaves open the always-present terrible idea they might choose otherwise unless convinced. That it takes principled people to make a public stand of doing the right thing despite popular opinion to remind people of what the right thing is and that it's worth pursuing.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 11:41
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:I think we might just be in an argument here, since I feel the key thing is that humans (or just people) in the future are better because they choose to be, which leaves open the always-present terrible idea they might choose otherwise unless convinced. That it takes principled people to make a public stand of doing the right thing despite popular opinion to remind people of what the right thing is and that it's worth pursuing. This. drat man I wish I would be as agile with words as many of you are.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 11:43
|
|
|
For the record, I don't have to love it to roll with it for the story they're going with. I just want it to be addressed rather than just accepted as fact that the Federation are dicks now. Interestingly though: Last time we saw Romulans in TV: in an alliance with the Federation to defeat the Dominion Last time we saw them in a film: grateful for having their Empire saved from destruction from an internal enemy. Yeah I'm ignoring 09 since the Empire itself isn't in it, and they rewrote that premise a little for Picard. So the motivation for them potentially not asking for help or the Federation being unwilling to help is not present at all in Picard and not even really implied by previous outings in the franchise. So while all these theories may be logical enough, they're unsound deduction in that they don't arise from the actual show. Lizard Combatant fucked around with this message at 12:14 on Feb 3, 2020 |
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 11:50
|
|
|
Outside the fictional context "better things are not possible" is a political statement and one that is not aligned with most trek fans. That's part of why people find this distasteful.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 12:19
|
|
|
adaz posted:Years ago when the star trek experience thing was still at the vegas hilton I threw away an embarrassing amount of money to spend a ton of time on the recreation of the enterprise-d bridge (which is supposedly a 1:1 recreation of the original) and I gotta say.. in person it also makes no sense. The second time through the Experience, on entering the bridge set I sped up and made a beeline to the captain's chair but one of the costumed staffers stopped me before I was close enough to sit in it. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 12:31
|
|
|
Arglebargle III posted:Outside the fictional context "better things are not possible" is a political statement and one that is not aligned with most trek fans. That's part of why people find this distasteful. See I think they're genuinely trying to respond to what fans want by making it about Picard doing the right thing, optimisn, best of humanity etc... But I think they're stuck in the trap of only being able to think of these stories in the context of individualism. I think a lot of working writers' imaginations have become stunted in that regard. Picard's a superhero and his power is basic decency.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 12:32
|
|
|
nine-gear crow posted:Trek 2009 says the Romulans asked Spock for help, specifically. It doesn't elaborate any further than that. Spock tells Kirk "we outfutted our fastest ship" to try and stop the supernova, but again the "we" part is incredibly vague, and the Jellyfish was clearly not a Federation design. Though it was clear that this was the absolute final last ditch effort because Romulus got smoked while Spock was enroute to the explosion, implicitly from Romulus. Spocks ship in 09 didn't look like a Fed design, but the computer voice suggested it had at least some Starfleet input.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 12:35
|
|
|
Tighclops posted:did you watch the movie If you look at the first season of Picard as a movie we have right now seen the first 20 minutes of the movie.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 12:37
|
|
|
Binary Logic posted:The second time through the Experience, on entering the bridge set I sped up and made a beeline to the captain's chair but one of the costumed staffers stopped me before I was close enough to sit in it. Didn't get to Vegas, but I went to the Star Trek exhibit at two different science centers and got to be "beamed up" both times and see the effect on screen, and as a kid that was like one of my life long dreams. I cannot say if the transporter killed me or not 
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 12:43
|
|
|
Senor Tron posted:Spocks ship in 09 didn't look like a Fed design, but the computer voice suggested it had at least some Starfleet input. I just assumed it was a Vulcan Science Academy ship and that they probably have certain generic parts that go into both Starfleet ships and VSA ships.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 12:45
|
|
|
Senor Tron posted:If you look at the first season of Picard as a movie we have right now seen the first 20 minutes of the movie. And if Kirk came out with this view out of nowhere it'd be jarring there too. But it's not, it's based on established character. He recently lost his son, he's irrational and getting over his own prejudice will be a major part of the film. If the comparison here is the "character" of The Federation, then there's no motivation established for this point of view and its at odds with what has previously been established. This last part is just a guess, but I'll wager it's never developed in the show either. Picard will defeat the evil plot, but the collective apathy of an organisation representing hundreds of worlds will not be challenged in any way.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 12:47
|
|
|
EvilTaytoMan posted:I just assumed it was a Vulcan Science Academy ship and that they probably have certain generic parts that go into both Starfleet ships and VSA ships. Oh yeah the ship does say it was made by the VSA when Kirk and Spock start going "what is this thing?" when they get aboard it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 12:49
|
|
|
Lizard Combatant posted:See I think they're genuinely trying to respond to what fans want by making it about Picard doing the right thing, optimisn, best of humanity etc... He's Bernie Sanders
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 13:31
|
|
|
Lizard Combatant posted:For the record, I don't have to love it to roll with it for the story they're going with. I just want it to be addressed rather than just accepted as fact that the Federation are dicks now. You are right for the most part however they are not dicks, just more closed and cautious political entity. Though about Nemesis - checking mem alpha: quote:After an exchange of fire between the Enterprise and the Scimitar, the Romulan military decided they would no longer support Shinzon. The military was only interest in the conquest of Earth, not mass genocide through the use of biogenic weapons. Two Romulan Warbirds arrived to assist the Enterprise. Both the Enterprise and the two Romulan ships were badly damaged in the ensuing battle, however the Scimitar was destroyed in the end. Anyway we could only hope that we will get an more in depth explanation in Picard, otherwise all your cautions would be true and we will have yet another 'rOmULaNs bAd' without any satisfactory explanations.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 15:50
|
|
|
I think it's a bit (okay a lot) of an over-simplification to say that in Picard FEDERASHUN BAD NOW We see a decision about how many resources to spend saving your long-time enemy from the point of view of a military officer. We see secret spy poo poo. It's not like the Federation now stands as a despotic empire, they just made a judgement call that Our Hero thinks was wrong, and presumably we the audience are supposed to agree. I mean, so far I DO agree, but it's more that was a dark time for the Federation and they made a selfish safe choice in a complicated situation rather than It Was No Longer Star Fleet from the guy who Insurrected more than once already
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 15:54
|
|
|
nine-gear crow posted:Didn't get to Vegas, but I went to the Star Trek exhibit at two different science centers and got to be "beamed up" both times and see the effect on screen, and as a kid that was like one of my life long dreams. I mean, it did, but it also cloned you down to your exact memory up until beaming, so yes and no?
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 15:55
|
|
|
The Bloop posted:I think it's a bit (okay a lot) of an over-simplification to say that in Picard FEDERASHUN BAD NOW Yeah absolutely. Those chair jockeys back at Federation HQ making bad decisions that our heroic captain opposes is such a classic Star Trek plot. People saying the Federation is like Trump's America now are being totally over the top.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 16:14
|
|
|
Its not 'FEDERASHUN BAD' it's "not what it used to be"
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 16:20
|
|
|
AntherUslessPoster posted:You are right for the most part however they are not dicks, just more closed and cautious political entity. Really, cause I'm totally prepared to admit I don't remember that piece of poo poo film so I went and checked too. If obsessive nerds on memory alpha are to be believed: quote:They are hailed and Commander Donatra, aboard the warbird Valdore, offers her assistance to the Enterprise. Picard is amazed that they're here to help them instead of Shinzon. She explains that the Empire considers this situation a matter of internal security and she apologizes that Picard has had to get involved. Sounds like there's been a regime change, and it's one more likely to be friendly to the Federation. Again this is evidence of nothing, they can make up whatever they like for the intervening years. But that's my point, they haven't. So you get Picard himself saying starfleet's in-action was "criminal" and quitting, it must have been pretty hosed up considering all the poo poo he's been through. That's the kind of thing that gets me thinking, whoah what the hell happened to shift the ideology to where what would once be totally unacceptable is now accepted mainstream. That's it. And I don't like unmotivated poo poo for the sake of hanging a plot on it, use your imagination that's what you're paid for. But I hate arguing about lore and canon, that poo poo loving sucks. It's a departure away from the ethos of the show they're adapting, sure it's too early to tell where it's going but it's a red flag is all. Lizard Combatant fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Feb 3, 2020 |
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 16:28
|
|
|
Is it also part of the reason this was so traumatic is that the attack was on Mars? Mars isn't some frontier colony. It's in Earth's solar system. It was the second place, after the moon, that Earth colonized. It was the first planet terraformed. It was the first of the human colonies to get independence, and its declaration of independence (The Fundamental Declarations of the Martian Colonies) is one of the foundations of Federation lore. Humans brag about having an ancestor who was one of the original colonists of Mars the way American brag about an ancestor on the Mayflower. It was the site of Starfleet's biggest shipyards, and was the last line of defense for Earth. And now it's a planetary graveyard. Mars's wealth, its history and culture, its economic importance, its prestige, its military significance, none of that saved it. So, now, when Mars itself is in ruins, and maybe some of the people there can still be saved, we should just forget about that, and carry on with some quixotic mission to evacuate Romulus and Remus, even though the fleet we were building to do it got destroyed?
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 16:30
|
|
|
Epicurius posted:Is it also part of the reason this was so traumatic is that the attack was on Mars? Mars isn't some frontier colony. It's in Earth's solar system. It was the second place, after the moon, that Earth colonized. It was the first planet terraformed. It was the first of the human colonies to get independence, and its declaration of independence (The Fundamental Declarations of the Martian Colonies) is one of the foundations of Federation lore. Humans brag about having an ancestor who was one of the original colonists of Mars the way American brag about an ancestor on the Mayflower. It was the site of Starfleet's biggest shipyards, and was the last line of defense for Earth. See no one blames the Romulans for Mars though. They stopped all assistance. That's the implication from Picard, he even says he had to persuade them to help before the attack even happened. That's the shift I'm talking about. They didn't want to do it in the first place and after the attack they withdrew completely. Lizard Combatant fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Feb 3, 2020 |
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 16:32
|
|
|
Epicurius posted:Is it also part of the reason this was so traumatic is that the attack was on Mars? Mars isn't some frontier colony. It's in Earth's solar system. It was the second place, after the moon, that Earth colonized. It was the first planet terraformed. It was the first of the human colonies to get independence, and its declaration of independence (The Fundamental Declarations of the Martian Colonies) is one of the foundations of Federation lore. Humans brag about having an ancestor who was one of the original colonists of Mars the way American brag about an ancestor on the Mayflower. It was the site of Starfleet's biggest shipyards, and was the last line of defense for Earth. Slightly off topic, but wasn't Riker raised on either Mars or the Moon, or am I completely misremembering it? I know he's from Alaska, but I thought he grew up on one of those.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 16:32
|
|
|
MichiganCubbie posted:Slightly off topic, but wasn't Riker raised on either Mars or the Moon, or am I completely misremembering it? I know he's from Alaska, but I thought he grew up on one of those. I know Crusher is from Copernicus City, Luna. (Do you think Lunites get angry when people call it "the Moon" or is that a prestige mark?)
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 16:42
|
|
|
Brawnfire posted:I know Crusher is from Copernicus City, Luna. (Do you think Lunites get angry when people call it "the Moon" or is that a prestige mark?) Hey it's no a moon is it? It's the Moon
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 16:43
|
|
|
Hey headin back to Luna eh? "That's no moon" haha just kidding. You gonna come over for my episode CLV watch party
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 16:45
|
|
|
Lizard Combatant posted:Hey it's no a moon is it? It's the Moon Now I imagine everyone on the moon having a strong Scottish brogue...
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 16:47
|
|
|
DuckTales already did the joke of the planet Moon.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 16:49
|
|
|
MichiganCubbie posted:Slightly off topic, but wasn't Riker raised on either Mars or the Moon, or am I completely misremembering it? I know he's from Alaska, but I thought he grew up on one of those. If Memory Alpha is to be believed, and they're generally pretty good at pedantic lists, the only actual Martian characters we see are a TOS crewmember who gets possessed by aliens, this TNG extra who is in a bunch of episodes, and Simon Tarses, the ensign from The Drumhead who's accused of sabotaging the Enterprise after it comes out he lied about his Romulan ancestry. Wait a minute....Martian, secret Romulan, already suspected of a previous bombing incident... hmm.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 16:53
|
|
|
Brawnfire posted:Now I imagine everyone on the moon having a strong Scottish brogue... It's Irish people that have a brogue.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 16:56
|
|
|
marktheando posted:It's Irish people that have a brogue. Are ye shoe about that, lad?
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 16:58
|
|
|
marktheando posted:It's Irish people that have a brogue. Some Romulans too
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 17:00
|
|
|
marktheando posted:It's Irish people that have a brogue. Oh dang! I guess "less commonly" it's applied to the Scottish but that's primarily how I've heard it used. The more you know.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 17:12
|
|
|
Multiple etymologies have been proposed: it may derive from the Irish bróg ("shoe"), the type of shoe traditionally worn by the people of Ireland and the Scottish Highlands, and hence possibly originally meant "the speech of those who call a shoe a 'brogue'". Type scottish b into google and see how far you get before it recommend scottish brogue. I think it's commonly applied to both Scots and Irish, though it may have originally only applied to the Irish.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 17:24
|
|
|
Brawnfire posted:I know Crusher is from Copernicus City, Luna. (Do you think Lunites get angry when people call it "the Moon" or is that a prestige mark?) According to the RED SQUAD! DS9 episode, the Moon people call it the Moon too.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 17:26
|
|
|
Brawnfire posted:I know Crusher is from Copernicus City, Luna. (Do you think Lunites get angry when people call it "the Moon" or is that a prestige mark?) “gently caress off, ya filthy moonies.” *Phrenology makes a comeback to show how moon gravity affects brain power*
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 17:32
|
|
|
In the pilot when they are trying to kidnap the android girl, the Romulan Death Squad is speaking, I presume, Romulan when the one guy goes "SPEAK ENGLISH" and it stuck out to me because I'm not sure that they've ever referred to the language that everyone speaks in the 24th c. as English. I recall Data pissing off Picard by calling French and ancient, dead language in a TNG episode, but have they ever called the lingua franca of the future "English" on screen before?
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 17:34
|
|
|
EvilTaytoMan posted:I just assumed it was a Vulcan Science Academy ship and that they probably have certain generic parts that go into both Starfleet ships and VSA ships. Yeah, the influence goes the other way. Federation computers sound like Vulcan computers for the very good reasons that Vulcans wrote most of the code. It's still a Unix variant of some sort 
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 17:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 19:24 |
|
|
zoux posted:Some Romulans too Only if they're crazy hot lady Romulans.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2020 17:36
|
|
