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FizFashizzle posted:Manchin is just trying to avoid having to vote on impeachment himself, or giving himself cover to vote against it. Manchin’s lovely, but are there any votes he didn’t go with the rest of the Dems during the sham trial? I know he voted for witnesses, which was kinda surprising to me. They know they’re not gonna get two thirds to remove Trump. Censuring him only takes a majority. I think everyone needs to get on the record with a vote on removal, but if they then vote to censure him and succeed, at least that’s something. It would absolutely drive Trump crazy, too. generic one fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Feb 3, 2020 |
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Feb 3, 2020 23:04
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Acute Grill posted:The nihilists in this thread are really grasping at straws to be condescendingly above it all. That's not really what it is. The more openly nihilistic people aren't arrogantly trying to claim intellectual superiority (mostly), they're just depressed. 2016, and the past 40 years of weak democratic resistance, have filled those paying attention with a kind of despair that's hard to quantify. It's why so many leading democratic officials aren't pushing for massive sweeping changes -- they're literally suffering from depression, a perception disease that makes them believe it's actually 100% impossible. The way to fight it is to point to things that have changed and do matter because of the work that's been going on. Virginia's trifecta, the moment it starts reaping dividends, is going to be an excellent font of hope for people. It's hard because it's hell world in the bad timeline, but most people who argue in favor of nothing mattering are doing so because hope is work, and they're poo poo out of stamina from all their efforts seeming to amount to nothing. It hasn't been nothing, but again, perception disease.
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Feb 3, 2020 23:04
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Ershalim posted:It's why so many leading democratic officials aren't pushing for massive sweeping changes -- they're literally suffering from depression, a perception disease that makes them believe it's actually 100% impossible. Yeah, I'm sure the Democratic leadership making millions from corporate money are just too sad to have opinions and not because the actual change their constituents want would hurt their income.
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Feb 3, 2020 23:11
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Acute Grill posted:Yeah, I'm sure the Democratic leadership making millions from corporate money are just too sad to have opinions and not because the actual change their constituents want would hurt their income. To be fair that's definitely part of it, the corruption inherent in the system is undeniable. I do think that a lot of them believe they're doing the best that they can, though. Not all, since the political machines of the world are openly mercenary, but many of the people who could take stands don't take them because they don't believe their constituency will support them. Money is probably a big reason for that, since it's a perverse incentive, but I don't think it's the only one. Take gay marriage as an example. I think most democratic officials don't have a problem with it and probably would have supported it earlier, but because they were convinced that nothing matters and their constituencies were full of bad (ignorant, religious, whatever) people, taking the stand would have done nothing but hurt them. If it were just money, the fight would have been over the moment someone discovered that we gays have money as a demographic.
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Feb 3, 2020 23:15
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That's still not depression, that just cowardice. The people in power didn't want to take a stand that might hurt their position of power. Hence why they all "evolved on the issue" at the exact same second once public opinion was too loud to ignore
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Feb 3, 2020 23:25
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Acute Grill posted:That's still not depression, that just cowardice. The people in power didn't want to take a stand that might hurt their position of power. Hence why they all "evolved on the issue" at the exact same second once public opinion was too loud to ignore I suppose. I imagine it has to do with people who make it to positions of power losing their ability to empathize with what it was like before, so they retain their disdain for the masses (which we all have) and lose their disdain for the positions of power they now occupy. I think your reading is uncharitable, but it isn't off-base. In terms of impeachment, it really does feel like they never wanted to do it at all and only bothered because the target of trump's illegal behavior this time was one of their own in Biden (and his son). I had been looking at it from the angle that the impeachment wasn't floated earlier because they believed that it wasn't supported by the masses, who by and large openly hate them, rather than it simply being a matter of them being afraid of losing power. I don't think those are necessarily extricable, but if you want to point to cowardice as being the motivational factor for their behavior, you could be right. The question then, is why are all of the elite so cowardly, and how do we change that?
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Feb 3, 2020 23:32
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Ershalim posted:That's not really what it is. The more openly nihilistic people aren't arrogantly trying to claim intellectual superiority (mostly), they're just depressed. 2016, and the past 40 years of weak democratic resistance, have filled those paying attention with a kind of despair that's hard to quantify. It's why so many leading democratic officials aren't pushing for massive sweeping changes -- they're literally suffering from depression, a perception disease that makes them believe it's actually 100% impossible. He is talking about the ones in the thread not the wider population. In this thread and pretty much all the others they form melodramatic circle jerks and if you suggest a constructive outcome or state there is hope, they type out a one handed screed and collapse in wet spot they made from feverishly making GBS threads on someone.
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Feb 3, 2020 23:58
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Ershalim posted:To be fair that's definitely part of it, the corruption inherent in the system is undeniable. I do think that a lot of them believe they're doing the best that they can, though. Not all, since the political machines of the world are openly mercenary, but many of the people who could take stands don't take them because they don't believe their constituency will support them. Money is probably a big reason for that, since it's a perverse incentive, but I don't think it's the only one. They think they're doing the best they can in the sense that they likely convince themselves that "what makes them money and gains them the approval of corporate lobbyists is also what's best for the country." This is assisted by said corporate lobbyists feeding them narratives explaining how their ideas are actually better for the American people than left-wing policy. Many social issues are also distinct from material issues in the sense that they don't threaten the wealthy. Obviously wealthy people can still be bigots, but there's nothing intrinsic to something like gay marriage that threatens them. There is, however, something intrinsic to most other left-wing policy that threatens them (including policy that would materially address the results of bigotry). Basically, they're bad people. Most bad people convince themselves that they're doing something good. They are closer to Republicans than they are people on the left.
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Feb 4, 2020 00:09
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Captain Invictus posted:that's not really the point. it's that he did something impeachable, he got impeached with absurd amounts of evidence to it, and the senate refused to see evidence or witnesses and rammed through a blatantly sham acquittal. The actual reason for the impeachment was bad(to you or I in terms of it mattering to our day-to-day) but the reaction to and results coming from the republicans around it are the really ugly parts. Openly declaring it would not be a fair trial. Saying they would not admit witnesses despite multiple prominent ones stepping forward. Blatantly declaring he should be above all punishment like dershowitz did. That multiple conspirators of the actual crime were involved in the trial itself. Rushing the trial through in no time at all. These are easy to digest and understand examples to even the most non-political bystander to make them question things. Not that it should impact anyone's strategy one iota, but the weirdos who do the "It's the other side's turn" thing have been handed every reason to vote Democrat in November.
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Feb 4, 2020 00:24
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dex_sda posted:For sure; the Women's March was a largely wasted opportunity to find genuine class solidarity. I wasn't criticizing the Women's March. My point was more if that a protest happens and that in-of-itself doesn't shake the establishment or people in power, which I don't think in America they ever do, then it's up to people like us to help get the protestors more involved, and if they don't then that is on us. Like, we can blame suburban neoliberal white people for inaction all we want but a protest is going to be ripe full of people who want to do SOMETHING and before this they might have just been ignorant or disenfranchised enough to not know how to turn that into action. I've said this before a number of times in D&D: At the very least the act of protesting is showing people that others give a poo poo which keeps some of us going. I think it's also good for getting people used to the IDEA of getting out into the streets. e: sorry for the derail
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Feb 4, 2020 00:49
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generic one posted:
None of the other votes means poo poo if he gives Trump a free talking point and shivs the rest of his caucus by voting to acquit. https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1224483699879763969 Of course. "He did it and I don't care"
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Feb 4, 2020 01:04
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twice burned ice posted:Bernie Sanders, well known for not having strong opinions on anything except Donald Trump. Troll somewhere else, idiot. Bernie Sanders, WHO IS NOT EVEN A DEMOCRAT (and that is why he is good) is restructuring American politics in the same way Trump is on the right. Even if he loses, every candidate was forced to have a position on M4A when nobody was talking about it prior to 2015. His candidacy inspired young progressives to become politically active and showed the democratic machine had chinks in the armor an insurgent could exploit (AOC's entire run was based on the Democrat in her district believing he was above campaigning). Meanwhile what have traditional Dems done in the era of Trump? Theyve voted for Trump's policies and failed to offer any meaningful resistance while screaming about Russia and Comey and whatever else they can use to avoid asking if maybe their platform of 'half rear end everything and appease conservatives' has failed. I have to say I'm looking forward to the #resistance welcoming blood thirsty ghoul John Bolton into their ranks and buying his book en masse. The rehabilitation of right wing monsters because they have been critical of Trump has been loving wild, and indicative of how shallow #resistance ideology really is
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Feb 4, 2020 01:10
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mcmagic posted:None of the other votes means poo poo if he gives Trump a free talking point and shivs the rest of his caucus by voting to acquit. It's kinda like when Trump finds out a new fact and then immediately announces that it's something that not a lot of people know. Like if you've actually been actively been engaged in politics for more than the two weeks the subject of impeachment has been before the Senate and you've reached any conclusions you're clearly a partisan hack who can't keep an open mind, per Lisa loving Murkowski.
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Feb 4, 2020 02:08
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Ershalim posted:That's not really what it is. The more openly nihilistic people aren't arrogantly trying to claim intellectual superiority (mostly), they're just depressed. 2016, and the past 40 years of weak democratic resistance, have filled those paying attention with a kind of despair that's hard to quantify. It's why so many leading democratic officials aren't pushing for massive sweeping changes -- they're literally suffering from depression, a perception disease that makes them believe it's actually 100% impossible. it isnt because hope is work. It is because most of us have gotten screwed for the last 40 years politically. there is only so many times you can get your hopes up. I'm not even getting my hopes up about bernie. I just know I'll be let down because biden will get it and then lose to trump. It will be nice to be surprised but im keeping my expectations low. ManBoyChef fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Feb 4, 2020 |
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Feb 4, 2020 02:14
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ManBoyChef posted:it isnt because hope is work. It is because most of us have gotten screwed for the last 40 years politically. there is only so many times you can get your hopes up. I'm not even getting my hopes up about bernie. I just know I'll be let down because biden will get it and then lose to trump. Ya, that's the work part. Optimism is a form of resistance against a systemic oppression. It's also contagious, so it can be useful to spout reasonable levels of optimism (not like shouting idealism from the gallows while being hanged, for example) to people just to give them something to think about that doesn't push them to pragmatism = pessimism -- because they aren't actually the same thing. Ytlaya posted:Basically, they're bad people. Most bad people convince themselves that they're doing something good. They are closer to Republicans than they are people on the left. I think this way a lot. My default framing has been to assume the worst out of established interests because they consistently seem to choose the worst options for everyone but themselves at all times. But I don't think that's helpful, because it implies that the bad people can be replaced by new people who would not be bad, and then everything would be fine. I think what's happening is systemic in nature, and the bad people became that way because they were trained/forced/incentivized to, and anyone we replace them with will as well, unless we change the actual systemic problems involved. So I'm trying to take a broader view that doesn't require me to look back at history and go, "oh, none of them knew that these people were just bad, so my generation can fix it because we won't pick bad people."
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Feb 4, 2020 02:21
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Do you think Trump will bring up the "impeachment hoax" at the SOTU tonight? Do you think he will claim total exoneration? Personally I think he is going to just embellish his accomplishments while also playing the victim. Where do we go from here?
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Feb 4, 2020 11:36
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One thing it's easy to forget is that there are two votes to consider, abuse and obstruction. Which will garner more guilty votes?
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Feb 4, 2020 12:30
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ManBoyChef posted:Do you think Trump will bring up the "impeachment hoax" at the SOTU tonight? Do you think he will claim total exoneration? Personally I think he is going to just embellish his accomplishments while also playing the victim. We'll get "no administration has succeeded more than we have. Despite the obstacles that I have personally had to overcome, I've drained the swamp and brought back jobs" With a lot of sniffing and stuttering of course
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Feb 4, 2020 13:49
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ManBoyChef posted:Do you think Trump will bring up the "impeachment hoax" at the SOTU tonight? Do you think he will claim total exoneration? Of course he will. Cross posting from the USPOL but I wish somebody would invite Bolton and Parnas as their guests to SOTU.
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Feb 4, 2020 15:29
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PhantomOfTheCopier posted:One thing it's easy to forget is that there are two votes to consider, abuse and obstruction. Which will garner more guilty votes? I doubt they will be any different, either party-line or 49-51. No one is considering the exact charges when deciding their vote. ManBoyChef posted:Do you think Trump will bring up the "impeachment hoax" at the SOTU tonight? Do you think he will claim total exoneration? Personally I think he is going to just embellish his accomplishments while also playing the victim. He will do all of these along with some stupid bullshit we can't even imagine that briefly becomes a meme.
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Feb 4, 2020 15:30
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haveblue posted:I doubt they will be any different, either party-line or 49-51. No one is considering the exact charges when deciding their vote. Really the only distinction is which Rs are arguing `decorum, decorum, due process, House rushed, let the people decide', and the Rs that are arguing `Biden Biden Mueller whistleblower no collusion impeachment is the real abuse of power Biden'. Edit: Wicker (MS), who is speaking as I type this, is an example: he's hasn't talked about the case itself directly, he says that the only fact that isn't in dispute is that the Ds have wanted to impeach Trump since day one, he's quoting loving Hamilton and the Federalist Papers, moaning about partisanship, &c. &c. &c. The unifying thread of the R defence of the President is pretended incredulity that anyone would even question Trump like this. Double edit: Wicker just literally invoked the ghosts of the Founders. As in talked about them wandering the halls of the Capitol, and hoping that his fellow Senators listen to them. The Republican party is a death cult. SubG fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Feb 4, 2020 |
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Feb 4, 2020 16:27
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 Wow this impeachment is really putting the squeeze on Trump folks. But please continue to complain whenever someone wants to talk about democratic party incompetence and how it relates to the impeachment and its electoral effects.
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Feb 4, 2020 17:01
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comedyblissoption posted:
Better pack it in guys, The Hill and the National Review are reporting statistical noise! Seriously is this the best C-Spam has to offer in terms of  ?
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Feb 4, 2020 17:23
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comedyblissoption posted:
And for comparison, the same Gallup poll that says Trump has a 49% approval rating also says that 46% people support convicting and removing him from office, with a margin of error of +/- 4%.
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Feb 4, 2020 17:30
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comedyblissoption posted:
Let's see...from left to right, the pollster who put out the outlier, a clickbaity shithole that relies on things like outlier polls, and the loving National Review. Sure, ok, whatever you say dude, I guess we're all doomed.
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Feb 4, 2020 17:33
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comedyblissoption posted:
The Iowa debacle brings into focus an idea that I'd had but couldn't quite put to words. It's that the powers that be in the Democrat party all all in way over their head and chosen for reasons other than competence. This isn't to say that the Republicans are some kind of meritocracy, but they seem to be able to handle the basic blocking and tackling of modern politics in a way that's utterly anathema to anyone capable of rising up in the Democrat party. To that end, i love Bernard as a candidate, but really hard to imagine him running a competent nationwide campaign. Even more so Biden. Watching Biden get into shoving matches with people who show up at his rallies would be worth the price of admission though
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Feb 4, 2020 17:35
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youre dick posted:The Iowa debacle brings into focus an idea that I'd had but couldn't quite put to words. It's that the powers that be in the Democrat party all all in way over their head and chosen for reasons other than competence. This isn't to say that the Republicans are some kind of meritocracy, but they seem to be able to handle the basic blocking and tackling of modern politics in a way that's utterly anathema to anyone capable of rising up in the Democrat party.
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Feb 4, 2020 17:37
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comedyblissoption posted:
538 hasn't moved
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Feb 4, 2020 17:41
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youre dick posted:The Iowa debacle brings into focus an idea that I'd had but couldn't quite put to words. It's that the powers that be in the Democrat party all all in way over their head and chosen for reasons other than competence. This isn't to say that the Republicans are some kind of meritocracy, but they seem to be able to handle the basic blocking and tackling of modern politics in a way that's utterly anathema to anyone capable of rising up in the Democrat party. I think the Iowa debacle really helps show that the Democratic party has a lot of really glaringly obvious problems that if we do not address we are just going to keep failing the voters in the party over and over or making them choose between hillary and trump. I for one am sick of the lesser of two evils. One good thing is that progressives are actually starting to win elections even the the DNC and the DCCC are putting their thumb on the scale. I'm pretty sick of the center right part of the party screwing over the left flank. It happens every time. We havent had any real progressive since FDR or Mcgovern (if he had won). I think it is well passed time to actually compromise. The Gallup poll is pretty much expected. The impeachment is really polarizing an already divided country. There really isn't people that tacitly approve of trump. You either love him or hate him. I for one hate him. I really think this country is up poo poo crick if he gets reelected because he knows he will be unaccountable to anyone.
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Feb 4, 2020 17:45
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ManBoyChef posted:I think the Iowa debacle really helps show that the Democratic party has a lot of really glaringly obvious problems that if we do not address we are just going to keep failing the voters in the party over and over or making them choose between hillary and trump. I for one am sick of the lesser of two evils. One good thing is that progressives are actually starting to win elections even the the DNC and the DCCC are putting their thumb on the scale. I'm pretty sick of the center right part of the party screwing over the left flank. It happens every time. We havent had any real progressive since FDR or Mcgovern (if he had won). I think it is well passed time to actually compromise. I'm not a leftist, or even a Democrat, but I agree 100% with what you're saying. It appears that the harder the centrists resist the left in the party, the less capable they seem to be at absolutely everything, from decision making to on the ground strategy execution. Maybe it's Establishment versus Insurgents? That still maps to centrists versus left, but feels more accurate?
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Feb 4, 2020 18:00
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lol Rand Paul is on the floor with a galaxy brain take: the House charges the President with using his office to go after his political opponents, when they themselves are seeking impeachment of one of their political opponents. And in the length of time it took to type that out he's moved on to Strzok and Page and FISA conspiracies and they said insurance policy. Says impeachment is a `plot to bring the President down'. Edit: He's using the floor to read his whistleblower question into the record.
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Feb 4, 2020 18:07
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SubG posted:lol Rand Paul is on the floor with a galaxy brain take: the House charges the President with using his office to go after his political opponents, when they themselves are seeking impeachment of one of their political opponents. Rand Paul is such a disgusting toady with literally no ideological consistency and he has never actually read the US Constitution (so, a Libertarian) ...can we get his neighbor to run for his senate seat? Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Feb 4, 2020 |
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Feb 4, 2020 18:09
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comedyblissoption posted:
In addition to what's been pointed out before: impeachment wasn't so much about swinging "independent" (read: conservative) voters. It's about keeping the left wing engaged and enraged so that they actually turn out this year.
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Feb 4, 2020 18:10
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SubG posted:lol Rand Paul is on the floor with a galaxy brain take: the House charges the President with using his office to go after his political opponents, when they themselves are seeking impeachment of one of their political opponents. ...when they themselves are made of impeachment?
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Feb 4, 2020 18:11
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Karia posted:In addition to what's been pointed out before: impeachment wasn't so much about swinging "independent" (read: conservative) voters. It's about keeping the left wing engaged and enraged so that they actually turn out this year. If that is true then it was a terrible strategy because the people who care enough to follow the impeachment closely were already going to vote.
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Feb 4, 2020 18:13
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SubG posted:lol Rand Paul is on the floor with a galaxy brain take: the House charges the President with using his office to go after his political opponents, when they themselves are seeking impeachment of one of their political opponents. The Republicans had tried not only legitimize but continue their pursuit of sabotage through trying to get Hunter Biden as a witness during the trial, as if he was even relevant to "we're impeaching Trump because he was abusing his power and seeking quid pro quo from a foreign power to investigate and sabotage his political opponent". They have no room to speak-- even if Democrats have a core motivation of bringing the president down, at least it's because he's a literal loving criminal. The galaxy brain takes have become so big they have collapsed into one gigantic black hole mindset. A vacuous vacuum of stupid and corrupt.
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Feb 4, 2020 18:14
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Paul with a poster of his question that Roberts didn't allow: He's attacking the concept of anonymity for whistleblowers. Made an aggressively disingenuous argument about the question being disallowed: says if nobody knows who the whistleblower is, how can he be outing him?
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Feb 4, 2020 18:14
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Helsing posted:If that is true then it was a terrible strategy because the people who care enough to follow the impeachment closely were already going to vote. The alternative was to not impeach, which surely would have lead to exactly the same voter enthusiasm in your imaginary universe? Surely you wouldn’t be telling us how much of waste the Democrats are for just letting Trump get away with blatant abuses of power without any pushback. E: You also have to consider all the evidence and crimes that have been uncovered by the impeachment investigation. Most of that narrative would never have been released or never put together in one place without the impeachment. Trump is going to be crowing about it until the election, and Trump crowing about it pisses off a solid majority of America. Stickman fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Feb 4, 2020 |
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Feb 4, 2020 18:23
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youre dick posted:I'm not a leftist, or even a Democrat, but I agree 100% with what you're saying. It appears that the harder the centrists resist the left in the party, the less capable they seem to be at absolutely everything, from decision making to on the ground strategy execution. Maybe it's Establishment versus Insurgents? That still maps to centrists versus left, but feels more accurate? Well the progressives were bound to rise up especially in the current climate. The Right has gone too, too far and the Democratic Party has veered too far to the right while effectively losing every battle they have been in. You have a lot of progressives out there making a lot of sense to people, especially the working class. Even if you don't think things like M4A, GND or C4A is possible at the moment they are good rallying cries to push towards. And I think that is the most important thing, people want something to push toward. The GOP does it all the time there is always some new thing to push toward and it keeps their base engaged. Also you have those that fought and lost during the Vietnam era and became disillusioned are dying or leaving the party entirely while you have more and more engaged, energized youth coming in. Socialism isn't a boogey man to anyone under 40.
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Feb 4, 2020 18:24
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Stickman posted:The alternative was to not impeach, which surely would have lead to exactly the same voter enthusiasm in your imaginary universe? The best way for the Democrats to improve voter enthusiasm would be for them to invest very heavily in a grassroots fundraising and mobilization model where they turn out their base with a policy agenda and communications strategy that offers a clear contrast with the Republicans and which leans into the energy of the post-2016 leftist surge within the party. Obviously the Democratic leadership has no interest in that and it isn't difficult to see how impeachment is a continuation of the Russiagate narrative and the attempt to stymie calls for a massive reform of the party. As for how to actually push back against Trump's abuses of power, had the Democrats really wanted to do that they could have played hardball with the budget. Instead they've voted to give Trump all kinds of legislative victories and signed off on his insane and dangerous military budget. If anything I would say one of the major functions of impeachment is to distract Democratic voters from the fact that their leaders are actually acquiescing to most of Trump's substantive agenda while making a big show of pursuing a basically symbolic protest vote against him.
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Feb 4, 2020 18:33
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