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Qubee posted:Harsh reality is better than soft advice.
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Jan 29, 2020 14:58
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This thread has been an awesome resource for me previously. Hoping to get some advice on my current situation, though I'm not sure if there's really much I can do at this point. I work in a large organisation (in Australia, for relevance) which has set pay bands similar to Government. I'm currently a level 7. About a year ago my job began gradually changing due to restructures and general changes in the way we work, and responsibilities and decision-making authority added to the point where I'm now doing level 8 duties. Also relevant here is that I really enjoy my job and am not looking to leave (more on that later). At the start of this year, I investigated the process for having the job reclassified, which involves rewriting the position description in line with the level 8 descriptors, a justification of why it's warranted and how the job came to change, having all managers above you sign it off up to C-level (three, in my case), and then it goes to HR who does the actual review and makes the decision. So I did all the work - filled out all the forms, rewrote the PD accurately, and approached my manager asking for her support to get the role reclassified, and a timeline for when this would take place. She immediately supported me and said she thought it was justified - she'd just come back from mat leave and had seen how much my role had changed while she'd been gone. I followed up with her the other day to see how she had gone taking it to the next manager up the line. Turns out, her manager immediately said "no way" and wasn't open to it at all. She managed to talk her into taking another look at it once she'd read all the documentation I put together, but it doesn't sound hopeful. Once that manager gets on board, it then needs to go to the C-level director for signoff, which is going to be an even harder sell. The approach from my manager now is that I need to write out all my objectives for the year as part of our regular performance planning, and ensure they're written in line with a level 8 role, and "go from there". At least she's keen to get it through and supports me? The problem I have here is that if the reclassification gets knocked back by either of the two managers above her, I'm still doing the work of a level 8 and not being paid for it (which this place has prior form for). They view PDs as essentially meaningless artefacts. I don't want to just sit back and refuse to do the work either, because that's not going to be a good look for me. Any advice? I'm going to keep pushing, but I feel pretty powerless. Another complicating factor: I'm pregnant (very early) and want to keep it quiet for as long as possible, because I'm concerned that once the news is out they'll definitely stonewall me as they won't want to pay me more while I'm on mat leave. I'm definitely not going to quit and lose my benefits either, so that's not an option. Unless I reveal the news and make them worry that they'll be hit with a discrimination case?!
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Jan 30, 2020 07:19
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Jumpsuit: what is your BATNA? What you are doing now might be more corporate politics than negotiation. Also, congrats!
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Jan 30, 2020 07:37
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Yeah, I have poo poo all. They really need me, but realistically I can't quit or change jobs within the organisation due to the incoming baby. If management wants to keep everyone locked into low pay structures, they have free rein to do it. I might post in the corporate thread, thanks for the direction.
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Jan 30, 2020 09:27
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Jumpsuit posted:Also relevant here is that I really enjoy my job and am not looking to leave (more on that later). I stopped reading here, because the rest of it doesn't matter.
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Jan 30, 2020 14:37
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This is probably not going to be a popular response so if other good posters disagree, listen to them, but: I think there's nothing to gain from even trying in this case. The company is structured to prevent the exact thing you want from happening and it is not going to happen. If you're unwilling to seek a new employer then I think you just need to make your peace with them exploiting you for work above your pay grade.
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Jan 30, 2020 15:31
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Eric the Mauve posted:This is probably not going to be a popular response so if other good posters disagree, listen to them, but: I think there's nothing to gain from even trying in this case. The company is structured to prevent the exact thing you want from happening and it is not going to happen. If you're unwilling to seek a new employer then I think you just need to make your peace with them exploiting you for work above your pay grade. Jumpsuit, your boss 100% supports you because she benefits from your work and doesn't write checks. Her boss doesn't care about you. The C-suite definitely doesn't care about you. The only way to get paid in this case is to leave. If you're unwilling to leave, make peace with it and don't take it personally. You have a kiddo on the way, so your risk tolerance is effectively zero. Do what you need to do for your family, and when you're in a position to take risks again, go get another job.
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Jan 30, 2020 15:55
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Don't listen to Dik Jumpsuit, he is too a goddamn good poster!
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Jan 30, 2020 16:18
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Dik Hz posted:I'm not a good poster, but normally I think EtM is too pessimistic. But in this case I'm 100% in agreement. One of these assertions is incorrect Eric the Mauve posted:Don't listen to Dik Jumpsuit, he is too a goddamn good poster! Yup, there it is
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Jan 30, 2020 16:52
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As another example for the usual advice in this thread, I recently accepted a position with a good career step forward, ~+30% base salary plus additional cash benefits. Always look elsewhere.
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Jan 30, 2020 18:39
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Thanks guys, appreciate the reality check. If anything at least this gives me thought about whether I go back after mat leave is over or look to move then.
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Jan 30, 2020 20:43
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if you did really want to gently caress with them, ask yourself boss if the no is because they think you are pregnant
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Jan 31, 2020 06:24
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:One of these assertions is incorrect Thanks guys.
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Jan 31, 2020 18:07
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I'd like to relate this without giving you nightmare fuel, but I'm pretty sure it's not actually possible. I got laid off 2 months into my wife's pregnancy, so, even if you're risk averse, your employer is not averse to your risks. Fortunately I had something else lined up within two weeks, but staying where you are isn't always the safest move. You're definitely getting good cop / bad copped by your manager and her manager, so take your current employment position with a grain of salt in terms of safety and stability. On the other hand fully exhausting your maternity leave / disability / etc and then starting a new job is about the greatest middle finger to a lovely employer you can give, so, if you can line up something while you can interview under the radar and push out the start date to just after you've fully sucked ever last benefit out of your current employer, that'd get you pretty even. Of course in a civilized country this might all be different as opposed to the Hellacious Corporatocracy of America.
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Jan 31, 2020 19:50
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:On the other hand fully exhausting your maternity leave / disability / etc and then starting a new job is about the greatest middle finger to a lovely employer you can give, so, if you can line up something while you can interview under the radar and push out the start date to just after you've fully sucked ever last benefit out of your current employer, that'd get you pretty even. watched a friend do this, it was great. For those stupid applications that won't let you submit without a salary number, better odds of getting a call back and getting what I want by just slugging in zero or putting something stupidly high? I can't find salary info for this position in particular.
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Feb 1, 2020 16:30
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THE MACHO MAN posted:watched a friend do this, it was great.
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Feb 2, 2020 07:47
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Dik Hz posted:$1. You're closest without going over! Remember to spay and neuter your HR
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Feb 2, 2020 08:04
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I'm fairly certain that most employers just plain expect to get mostly 0s and 1s on that form. It's their token ask to take advantage of the naive. Would advise going low rather than going high with your non-answers. A high number can be seen as obnoxious; a low number is just playing the game.
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Feb 5, 2020 23:05
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From Ask a Manager: My wife read and told me about the article so I don't have a link unfortunately. An employee finds a new job that comes with a sizable raise. Their current employer asks for a 20% cut of their new pay check because it's the networks that the employee developed at their current job that allowed them to get the new role. Now there's someone who really doesn't get how negotiating works.
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Feb 5, 2020 23:26
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bamhand posted:From Ask a Manager: https://www.askamanager.org/2017/02/my-boss-wants-20-of-my-salary-from-my-next-job.html Alison Greene posted:A reader writes:
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Feb 5, 2020 23:47
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X-postin’Hooplah posted:So after a FULL loving YEAR of applying to tons of jobs in a brand new to me city with zero contacts whatsoever, I finally contacted an old reference from my home state and turns out he's hiring for exactly what I'm trying to do. Two phone calls with him later and I have an offer letter. I guess I'm moving back across the country I’ll add that this hiring manager knows I have no job currently, so my batna is low. Is asking for 10k over his offer too cheeky given my situation?
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Feb 6, 2020 00:22
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Hooplah posted:X-postin’
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Feb 6, 2020 00:27
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Agreed. Kick rear end and ask for a generous raise in 6 months or a year, depending on how much rear end you're kicking.
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Feb 6, 2020 15:50
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Thanks, guys. This feels like such a hard thing to decide on. In the phone calls, hiring manager did stress he has longer term plans for me if I stick around, with potential for increased responsibilities (facilities management experience being a possibility) along with commensurate increases in compensation. Honestly think I can trust him to follow through with my professional development. Back before I moved away I felt he was advocating for my future more than my last boss.
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Feb 6, 2020 16:31
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Hooplah posted:Thanks, guys. This feels like such a hard thing to decide on. In the phone calls, hiring manager did stress he has longer term plans for me if I stick around, with potential for increased responsibilities (facilities management experience being a possibility) along with commensurate increases in compensation. Honestly think I can trust him to follow through with my professional development. Back before I moved away I felt he was advocating for my future more than my last boss. Worst case scenario you're "stuck" being paid a bit over average for a while before finding a new job while you are no longer unemployed, which is a huge up from your current situation.
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Feb 6, 2020 16:32
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I would just take it. You need a job.
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Feb 6, 2020 17:21
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As someone who was unemployed and job hunting for half of the time you've been doing it, I'd say snap the offer up in a heartbeat. I can't even begin to imagine how soul crushing it was for you, I'd just about lost my poo poo 6 months into the mess that is unemployment. Despite not negotiating and going in at a pretty average salary, just having a sense of purpose and spending the day with coworkers and having a good time is well worth it. Beats sitting on my rear end getting frustrated when job application #781 comes through as a rejection. You'll be thankful for just getting your mental health back on track, but you're also getting paid at the same time. Win win.
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Feb 6, 2020 18:28
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Qubee posted:As someone who was unemployed and job hunting for half of the time you've been doing it, I'd say snap the offer up in a heartbeat. I can't even begin to imagine how soul crushing it was for you, I'd just about lost my poo poo 6 months into the mess that is unemployment. Despite not negotiating and going in at a pretty average salary, just having a sense of purpose and spending the day with coworkers and having a good time is well worth it. Beats sitting on my rear end getting frustrated when job application #781 comes through as a rejection. You'll be thankful for just getting your mental health back on track, but you're also getting paid at the same time. Win win. It's loving enormous. I will say this last year has been one of my biggest growths in my understanding of myself, but it certainly came with a huge pricetag. I'm going to be so excited to do this work. I also didn't specifically mention this, but I'm going back to the same institution (different dept, and it's a pretty big place) but my job is a rung on the ladder higher, and I'll be making 20k more than when I was laid off. I was pretty horribly underpaid at that point, but I also had no professional self respect and little understanding of my value.
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Feb 6, 2020 18:50
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Sounds like a good outcome all around, congrats. Take the job and enjoy it for the time being. Get the most out of it that you can and reevaluate in a year or two.
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Feb 6, 2020 22:45
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Thanks again, thread regulares. I took the offered salary. However, I did bring up relocation assistance, and although he said they normally don't do that, he was able to secure a $2.5k starting bonus to (more than) pay for my move. Pleasantly surprised! I didn't really push or advocate for myself much, I just brought it up and he made it happen.
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Feb 7, 2020 15:50
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:3. DO NOT GIVE A SALARY RANGE: A salary range tells an employer three things: You don't know how to negotiate, that you're not holding a firm position, and that you'll accept the bottom of that salary range. What possible value is there in you telling an employer a salary range instead of telling them the number at the top of the range? For the employer it puts a cap on how much they might have to pay you, it tells them that you're volunteering to be bullied down to the bottom of that range, and that you really don't know what you're doing. For you it does nothing good. Let's say I hosed up out of nervousness and didn't follow these rules during the initial phone interview, is there any hope for repairing the damage assuming I get to the next stage? I would like to have my ducks in a row.
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Feb 7, 2020 18:34
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Baronash posted:Let's say I hosed up out of nervousness and didn't follow these rules during the initial phone interview, is there any hope for repairing the damage assuming I get to the next stage? I would like to have my ducks in a row. If they told you what the job entailed and you gave them a number, you will look like you don't know what you want and they will be annoyed if you suddenly tell them a higher number later on. The only way this changes is if you find out the position has more responsibility than original such as finding out you will have a couple of direct reports.
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Feb 7, 2020 18:57
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Depending on how much was discussed you can also look at total comp like PTO retirement etc. Maybe you can get something. However, most of that stuff isn't negotiable by policy unless you're very senior or a special position. Maybe talking about the non-salary comp gives you an opportunity to ask for more money to offset those things. So, you could ask for more without sounding foolish. Be warned though, If it's good benefits then you would sound foolish because they would know it's unlikely you have a competing offer or even just assumed better from past jobs. Or chalk it up to a learning experience and in a few years go get another job, this time prepared to negotiate.
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Feb 7, 2020 19:13
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Inept posted:If they told you what the job entailed and you gave them a number, you will look like you don't know what you want and they will be annoyed if you suddenly tell them a higher number later on. The only way this changes is if you find out the position has more responsibility than original such as finding out you will have a couple of direct reports. I gave them a stupidly wide range (10k) because I'm an idiot and I'm just looking for advice on how to steer discussion toward the top end (or even middle) of that range rather than the bottom.
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Feb 7, 2020 19:13
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Baronash posted:I gave them a stupidly wide range (10k) because I'm an idiot and I'm just looking for advice on how to steer discussion toward the top end (or even middle) of that range rather than the bottom. You can’t turn the clock back on what you said, but you can still counter an offer. Based on further discussion of the position I am looking for x, which happens to be at the top of the range I gave earlier.
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Feb 7, 2020 19:32
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Jordan7hm posted:You can’t turn the clock back on what you said, but you can still counter an offer. Based on further discussion of the position I am looking for x, which happens to be at the top of the range I gave earlier.
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Feb 7, 2020 19:34
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Baronash posted:
Depends how valuable you are. I actually disagree with Dwight here. His analysis only holds when the employer has most of the leverage. If you have the leverage the only mistake you can make is one that ends the discussion. If you have leverage you can set and reset the salary requirement as late into the process as you want. One phone call: "I've heard enough now about the opportunity to tell you with confidence that I'd be happy to work for you for $X. That's higher than my initial range because I've seen your that your needs are very serious and I expect I'll need to put in higher effort at a cost of higher stress."
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Feb 8, 2020 00:09
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if you have leverage it's vanishingly unlikely that you are posting in this thread asking for advice
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Feb 8, 2020 01:31
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Hoodwinker posted:This also gives you some drat good motivation to ask as many questions as possible to give yourself a solid foundation to tweak the original quote. This is good sense anyway, but now you've really got a reason to do it.
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Feb 8, 2020 01:36
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If at all possible the best thing by far to latch onto for raising your ask is "I have another offer"
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Feb 8, 2020 04:02
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