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Delthalaz posted:This was the first episode that I didn't like, other than the medical hologram, and it made me really concerned about damage this show might do to the setting. It's long-established that the Federation does not use money (except I guess for external trade) and that earth is a kind of "paradise" post-class conflict and post-capitalism. People no longer work because they are compelled to by necessity, nor are their lives shaped by the profit motive. Yet now we're seeing the Borg complain that everyone wants to exploit them for "profit" (implicitly including the Federation), working class dockworkers complaining about crappy replicators, and now much worse: several explicit discussion of money: hiring a ship, it being expensive. Having someone live in a remote desert house is fine, I guess, but only if she was living there because she was depressed and wanted to get away from the world. However, when she talked about Picard's fancy chateau and his heirloom furniture, she was expressing what can only be described as class resentment against Picard's generational wealth and privilege. That absolutely should not exist on Earth at this point in Star Trek and I am actually surprised at how offended I am. Yeah man, I've been mostly okay with everything so far, I even enjoyed a lot of DISCO, but those bits in this episode really cast a kind of nasty direct shade on fedlife that is really souring. Heck, I can even by the corruption of fed values if Earthfolk still live in a sheltered utopia, that's "dark" without just being trek-breaking. Also, after Game of Thrones, I can do without sibling-sex-tension forever. Blagh, they're doubling down on this money poo poo. This is some Firefly 'ing at the end right here. Honestly, I'd be able to forgive more of this if it was a Ferengi ship, or maybe there's a Ferengi brokering the pilot/ship deal. Super weird for fedfolk to be all ferengi about everything. Also, calling it now, Agnes is a mole for the Federation at first but she learns to really care and makes a sacrifice to prove her loyalty in the end. I really enjoyed the different EMHs of the captain. For that first scene, I was like, really, do we need another pale beardy man, it's already hard enough to tell them apart! I love the Borg stuff so far, and I hope they keep the River Tam to a minimum. I like Sohj, but definitely see them kind of angling that route. Khanstant fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Feb 7, 2020 |
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Feb 7, 2020 01:49
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Lizard Combatant posted:She describes her house as a "humiliating hovel". Again it's not the in universe wank you can make up to justify it, it's the coding. Sure coded as losing her job and living in a shack I can go along with, and I can get not liking that. I'm a little perplexed by people saying this is Trek breaking though.
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Feb 7, 2020 02:03
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marktheando posted:Sure coded as losing her job and living in a shack I can go along with, and I can get not liking that. I'm a little perplexed by people saying this is Trek breaking though. Ok sure, and I'm not arguing that btw. But you also can't ignore the actual dialogue spoken when making your case. Just keep it real.
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Feb 7, 2020 02:16
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ashpanash posted:Hey, stakes and a plot! We were missing those!  I hate basically everything about our reheated culture, and if I stopped and really decided to bring the Grognard Glass to bear on this I’d probably hate it too. But you know what? It’s JLP. It’s mostly inoffensive and even has some genuinely good bits so far. I’ll take what I can loving get. Maybe when Bernie wins and starts to revitalize our moribund civilization I’ll redevelop standards and high expectations in my pop media consumption. What does this make me, TVIV?
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Feb 7, 2020 02:25
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Normal for a regular person, a monster by the standards of Star Trek, the nitpickiest fandom that exists.
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Feb 7, 2020 02:26
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The Federation has never been a post-currency society. Post-scarcity, sure, but there have been repeated, if not ubiquitous, references to using money even within the system, as it were, without getting into off-books pilots operating on the edge of legality. In Wrath of Khan the Federation explicitly funded Genesis, for instance.
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Feb 7, 2020 02:33
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Uncle Lloyd posted:The Federation has never been a post-currency society. Post-scarcity, sure, but there have been repeated, if not ubiquitous, references to using money even within the system, as it were, without getting into off-books pilots operating on the edge of legality. In Wrath of Khan the Federation explicitly funded Genesis, for instance. i'm watching first contact right now. you are wrong.
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Feb 7, 2020 02:38
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Uncle Lloyd posted:The Federation has never been a post-currency society. Post-scarcity, sure, but there have been repeated, if not ubiquitous, references to using money even within the system, as it were, without getting into off-books pilots operating on the edge of legality. In Wrath of Khan the Federation explicitly funded Genesis, for instance. Buddy, I'm sorry but that just ain't in the movie at all. The Genesis project is a science mission, the Reliant is a Starfleet vessel that's at their disposal.
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Feb 7, 2020 02:43
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Lizard Combatant posted:Buddy, I'm sorry but that just ain't in the movie at all. Two movies later, Kirk even says about the 20th century, and I quote, "They're still using money." Implying that, at some point, "they" stop using money.
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Feb 7, 2020 02:49
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Uncle Lloyd posted:The Federation has never been a post-currency society. Post-scarcity, sure, but there have been repeated, if not ubiquitous, references to using money even within the system, as it were, without getting into off-books pilots operating on the edge of legality. In Wrath of Khan the Federation explicitly funded Genesis, for instance. They very clearly say several times they don't use money. They even lampshade this is DS9 when Nog asks Jake why they don't and he doesn't have an answer.
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Feb 7, 2020 02:53
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Lizard Combatant posted:Buddy, I'm sorry but that just ain't in the movie at all. At 45:55, Marcus' voiceover on the terraforming renderings says "should the Federation wish to fund these experiments to their logical conclusion." McCoy asks "how much" to charter a ship in III. If you're reading Rios as charging money for passage, then he's only carrying on longstanding norms. Background worldbuilding in Trek has kind of always been a mess, if they want to play it in Picard to use money in some situations, I guess I don't really see that as being out of line with existing canon or anything to get myself worked up about. Uncle Lloyd fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Feb 7, 2020 |
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Feb 7, 2020 02:53
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I don't think it matters so much that they mention money in picard by itself since it's still alluded to by lazier writers despite the intention clearly for at least the Federation to be largely past such things. Like, I don't know how you "fund" something without money, like how do the phasers work? In the new show it's taken in the larger context with the other weird poo poo like that rant about Picard's vineyard and that's why it's kind of off putting Like you'd think I'd be cheering her on there seeing as how I'm hardly wealthy but instead I get the same reaction I as did with Maquis
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Feb 7, 2020 02:59
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Delthalaz posted:This was the first episode that I didn't like, other than the medical hologram, and it made me really concerned about damage this show might do to the setting. It's long-established that the Federation does not use money (except I guess for external trade) and that earth is a kind of "paradise" post-class conflict and post-capitalism. People no longer work because they are compelled to by necessity, nor are their lives shaped by the profit motive. Yet now we're seeing the Borg complain that everyone wants to exploit them for "profit" (implicitly including the Federation), working class dockworkers complaining about crappy replicators, and now much worse: several explicit discussion of money: hiring a ship, it being expensive. Having someone live in a remote desert house is fine, I guess, but only if she was living there because she was depressed and wanted to get away from the world. However, when she talked about Picard's fancy chateau and his heirloom furniture, she was expressing what can only be described as class resentment against Picard's generational wealth and privilege. That absolutely should not exist on Earth at this point in Star Trek and I am actually surprised at how offended I am. Yeah, honestly this. I will admit that post-scarcity does not make sense to me with regards to service industry ...(holo people?), media creation, news media etc. You can see some of those tasks being filled by people passionate about those roles but not to the degree required to fill the needs of the entire populace, I think. I'll even admit that maybe there's a reasonable way to be able to hire a ship like merit with regards to something giving you the right for one (does not make sense because it's a private individual wanting to get paid) off-world credits obtained through services outside the Federation, maybe. Or just Federation basically somehow making the call for it to be a worthwhile investment (Yeah potential problems there for sure and doesn't apply here). You can assign *some* sense of scarcity that's not even about lack of luxury but more like just complete ostentatious bullshit like owning a large starship and assign tensions to that but lovely replicators and living in the desert in a hovel (okay the apartment looked pretty nice tbh) doesn't make any sense for post-scarcity unless it's by choice. I honestly didn't mind Discovery that much, but this series has glacial place, and I'm beginning to understand what some (one?) of you mean by mystery box bullshit storytelling and it's egregious. I feel like I've watched 45 minutes of nothing. Episode 4 better start delivering. As it is I would have been better off continuing my DS9 watch to actually extract some sort of narrative whole from an episode. I know it's not going for it but I kind of expected just a little more of TNG with slightly depressed Picard and with some positive sides of modern TV storytelling so the show doesn't have gaping parts that are illogical or *too* cheesy, while still retaining a humanistic and overall positive outlook. Watching TNG has been a joy these past two years when everything is so grim in the world, even if I enjoy grim/edgy media to a degree. I feel like this third episode is sucking positivity away from Star Trek with its post-scarcity is not a thing, actually -bullshit. I was OK with the first two episodes but the third just keeps going forward with this path and I don't like it. I will keep watching the show though and hope it's about finished setting itself up. I'm not saying anyone is wrong for enjoying this episode.
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Feb 7, 2020 03:00
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marktheando posted:Sure coded as losing her job and living in a shack I can go along with, and I can get not liking that. I'm a little perplexed by people saying this is Trek breaking though. Part of the core premise of Star Trek's setting is that for "us," little peoples on Earth, had grown beyond the social problems of capitalist caste systems. Rafi loses her job because of some military bureaucratic politics fuckery. That sucks, but doesn't break Trek. She's really pissed at Picard for kind of running away and leaving her in his wake, and then never visiting her in the intervening time is a real dick move, so that alone could explain a lot of her bitterness towards him. They made it a point, however, to show that losing her job left her in living conditions she felt were humiliating, while highlighting the extravagance of Picard's estate. That, plus the whole "grunt workers get poo poo replicator food for no reason besides dystopia" is really painting Federation life and values of the people as different than in JL's old show. They are deliberately showing that the Trek world is grittier and and less humane than all those times when Picard gives a speech about humanity and the federation.
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Feb 7, 2020 03:00
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 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiBLgEx6svA
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Feb 7, 2020 03:00
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Did she arrive in a little black shuttlecraft or just a Big Brother style teleport-in?
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Feb 7, 2020 03:02
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Khanstant posted:Part of the core premise of Star Trek's setting is that for "us," little peoples on Earth, had grown beyond the social problems of capitalist caste systems. Rafi loses her job because of some military bureaucratic politics fuckery. That sucks, but doesn't break Trek. She's really pissed at Picard for kind of running away and leaving her in his wake, and then never visiting her in the intervening time is a real dick move, so that alone could explain a lot of her bitterness towards him. They made it a point, however, to show that losing her job left her in living conditions she felt were humiliating, while highlighting the extravagance of Picard's estate. That, plus the whole "grunt workers get poo poo replicator food for no reason besides dystopia" is really painting Federation life and values of the people as different than in JL's old show. They are deliberately showing that the Trek world is grittier and and less humane than all those times when Picard gives a speech about humanity and the federation.
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Feb 7, 2020 03:03
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Uncle Lloyd posted:At 45:55, Marcus' voiceover on the terraforming renderings says "should the Federation wish to fund these experiments to their logical conclusion." Ok, I'll cop to the use of the word "fund". But it pretty clearly means "commit resources to" in the context of a proposal to Federation science division. Is that a meaningful distinction? Well in context of the repeated and explicit references to a lack of a monetary system in Federation society from TOS onwards, I'd say yes. Uncle Lloyd posted:McCoy asks "how much" to charter a ship in III. If you're reading Rios as charging money for passage, then he's only carrying on longstanding norms. Background worldbuilding in Trek has kind of always been a mess, if they want to play it in Picard to use money in some situations, I guess I don't really see that as being out of line with existing canon or anything to get myself worked up about. Hey I didn't catch your edit sorry. Yup that's an example quite similar to the beat in Picard ep 3, chartering a ship. I guess the difference is McCoy's trying to get to an off limits restricted planet, where as Picard just wants to leave earth? Regardless, that scene wasn't what I was referring to. Specifically the idea that Raffi was fired and reduced to living in a "humiliating hovel", resentful of Picard's comfortable class insulation. And I absolutely agree with you that world building in Trek can be inconsistent, but these pretty minor examples are contradictions to the established system. Not the norm. Lizard Combatant fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Feb 7, 2020 |
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Feb 7, 2020 03:06
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once I recovered from doubling over I wondered: why would a vulcan need sunglasses?
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Feb 7, 2020 03:06
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Khanstant posted:Did she arrive in a little black shuttlecraft or just a Big Brother style teleport-in? I think she emerged from a bush, y'know, like a spy
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Feb 7, 2020 03:07
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In 24th century Japan, sunglasses are still cool It'd be even better if she was smoking
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Feb 7, 2020 03:17
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I figure dodgy dudes with ships accept payment in a shitload of good quality booze.
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Feb 7, 2020 03:21
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Tokelau All Star posted:I figure dodgy dudes with ships accept payment in a shitload of good quality booze. also in shoulder-piercing accessories
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Feb 7, 2020 03:23
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Lizard Combatant posted:Ok sure, and I'm not arguing that btw. But you also can't ignore the actual dialogue spoken when making your case. Just keep it real. It is, in obvious fact, an incredibly fine house. Lovely location, spacious, clearly well kept. There's nothing materially wrong with her life at all. You can't ignore the actual things we see when making your case.
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Feb 7, 2020 03:23
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Lizard Combatant posted:She describes her house as a "humiliating hovel". Again it's not the in universe wank you can make up to justify it, it's the coding. I’d wager nobody on staff was in the Navy or any military for that matter.
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Feb 7, 2020 03:24
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Eiba posted:It's a metaphorical hovel. Are you for real? Metaphorical? It's a one room trailer in the middle of loving no where. But, and this is important, how you or I see it is irrelevant. Hopefully for the last time: Lizard Combatant posted:She describes her house as a "humiliating hovel". Again it's not the in universe wank you can make up to justify it, it's the coding. Lizard Combatant posted:Specifically the idea that Raffi was fired and reduced to living in a "humiliating hovel", resentful of Picard's comfortable class insulation. Like if you think the show is saying something meaningful here, cool. Argue that. But trying to make a square peg fit a round hole to insist that this isn't a departure is frustrating af. Lizard Combatant fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Feb 7, 2020 |
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Feb 7, 2020 03:29
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ashpanash posted:In 24th century Japan, sunglasses are still cool Turns out Oh is short for Commodore Oh My Gawd!
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Feb 7, 2020 03:35
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Eiba posted:It is, in obvious fact, an incredibly fine house. Lovely location, spacious, clearly well kept. There's nothing materially wrong with her life at all. He's not wrong that it's sloppy. But holy poo poo is Star Trek full of slop like that. I'm not trying to excuse the show for being sloppy - it should be the best show it can be - but at the same time, Star Trek was never "Breaking Bad" and it's kind of silly to expect a new Star Trek show to be of that caliber. It's got a lot more money thrown into it, yeah, and it's shot with a lot more money, absolutely. But that's more "the way you shoot TV now" than "it's trying to be Homicide: Life On The Street!" Star Trek was fun, sloppy, entertaining, interesting, boring, preachy as gently caress, occasionally thrilling, sometimes with aspects of horror, sometimes with comedy, sometimes just drat good stories. What I like about Star Trek is that it's a good scaffolding for stories of all different types. I nerd out over details like any of us, but these things aren't holy texts. They're syndicated entertainment. Any argument brought up against this show can be shown aside episodes from every one of the TV shows. Most of them, in fact, are about as good or worse television than what we've gotten from Picard. I agree, a couple dozen of them are excellent, and we have yet to see something on that level from New Trek. So I'm waiting for that, sure. But to be disappointed in every episode because it's not loving genius? It rubs against the minutea of the lore? Maybe I'm just not enough of a "Star Trek fan" to care. (And it's at this moment that I realize how much time and effort I am putting into defending my position. I guess I do care.)
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Feb 7, 2020 03:36
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My wife made a point that it actually would have been more interesting to see her not living in a future trailer, but suffering the mundanity of living in the Star Trek Utopia. She's this badass woman looking for fights and problems; and she's stuck in this virtuous society just painting or going to dance recitals all-day. The issue isn't really money--yes Star Trek has been fast and loose with that--but that the whole scene is coded in terms of privilege. Her lovely home is supposed to contrast the chateau. There shouldn't be the haves and have nots in Star Trek. I also don't like how Picard quit so easily after being fired. Like, the Picard I know would have convinced the Klingons to rescue the Romulans because being rescued by their enemy instead of dying bravely is the ultimate defeat or something like that.
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Feb 7, 2020 03:37
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Timeless Appeal posted:I also don't like how Picard quit so easily after being fired. Like, the Picard I know would have convinced the Klingons to rescue the Romulans because being rescued by their enemy instead of dying bravely is the ultimate defeat or something like that. You wanted MORE episodes of exposition? j/k, I agree that it was rushed, and could have been placed elsewhere, maybe later in the season, with a bit more background. This episode should have at least been episode 2, with some things moved around a bit. P. Stew may be spry for 70+ but I'm guessing they had to come up with a lot of excuses to get him to be able to sit down.
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Feb 7, 2020 03:40
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ashpanash posted:He's not wrong that it's sloppy. For the record I almost completely agree (though I think every show should strive to be the best it can be, regardless of its pedigree). And I don't think canon is a holy text, if you can be arsed reading my posts (yknow, if you've got literally nothing else better to do, knock yourself out) you'll see I don't give a crap about the minutia of canon. My initial point if anyone even remembers by this point, was that using quick and dirty contemporary short hand often feels incongruous with the setting. Lizard Combatant fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Feb 7, 2020 |
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Feb 7, 2020 03:40
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Timeless Appeal posted:My wife made a point that it actually would have been more interesting to see her not living in a future trailer, but suffering the mundanity of living in the Star Trek Utopia. She's this badass woman looking for fights and problems; and she's stuck in this virtuous society just painting or going to dance recitals all-day. Holy poo poo, now that would have be interesting. Tell your wife she's great from me.
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Feb 7, 2020 03:42
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I am not entirely sure I like the idea of taking three episodes of a ten-episode season in order to finally get things loving moving.
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Feb 7, 2020 03:48
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Lizard Combatant posted:And I don't think canon is a holy text, if you can be arsed reading my posts (yknow, if you've got literally nothing else better to do, knock yourself out) you'll see I don't give a crap about the minutia of canon. Yeah, I'm not saying you specifically do. As I've said before, your points are solid as gently caress. We see things in much the same way. I think if anything you're a little hard on Star Trek for not being as good as the best TV there is, but like you say, every show should be the best it can be. But I also kind of think it so happens that there's only so much talent in the world, and Alex Kurtzman (like Berman before him) isn't such an amazing producer that he can attract the best talent anywhere. We work with what we have, as they say. So far, it's good enough for me. It's definitely not facepalimingly, horribly bad. (Again, for me.) There are a few people in here (and elsewhere) who do approach ST like it's holy, though, and I figured I'd write my feelings down for everyone to first see and then ignore or ridicule.
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Feb 7, 2020 03:49
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I'm annoyed that it was just more exposition and not much plot forwarding. But I did enjoy that we got to see Hugh even if I didn't realize it at the time. Also, it seems like Romulans are keeping cubing alive in the 24th. Looks like it might have been a Square-1 or something.Rhyno posted:Holo Geordi was sacrificed to pay for the real Geordi's sins. Leah Brahms has been certified to command the bridge a few hundred times.
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Feb 7, 2020 03:51
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What we should REALLY be looking for are the Ronald D. Moore and Brian Fuller types that come out of working on a show like this (or the Orville, etc.) Those are the ones that give workmanlike shows a touch of brilliance, and then move on to create interesting things. (Not always ultimately fulfilling things, mind you, but interesting things.)
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Feb 7, 2020 03:52
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ashpanash posted:Yeah, I'm not saying you specifically do. As I've said before, your points are solid as gently caress. We see things in much the same way. We're good. It's crazy how Star Trek succeeded in spite of Berman. The dramatic improvement from TNG season 3 onwards seems to come from Michael Pillar soliciting spec scripts and establishing a stable of writers that'd go on to DS9, unless I'm misremembering this in which case please correct me. I guess I'm hard on it because the 90s run of Star Trek felt like it was doing it's best despite being hobbled by 90s production quotas, budget and network mandates for a syndication friendly, family show. They could only dream of the post cable drama TV boom we're in today. Plus if you're not trying to do better than what came before, what's the point? Lizard Combatant fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Feb 7, 2020 |
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Feb 7, 2020 03:55
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Lizard Combatant posted:Are you for real? Metaphorical? Eiba posted:I feel like she's upset at losing her job, not because of the pay, but because of her personal interests. "I lost my security clearance" is what she says before choking up. She's a conspiracy theory addict, and likes putting together puzzles from hidden pieces of information. She couldn't do that anymore as a civilian. I see what you're saying. It's definitely coded a certain way that resonates with certain modern scenarios. But she never says, "I couldn't pay for a better house!" she just implies she lost what she valued. Considering she was never being paid, that obviously wasn't money. It was security clearance. That's what she says it is she lost. It was a big deal to her. When she compares their houses she's comparing their lives. That's obviously the meaning of what she's saying. Even if she was literally living in a hovel in horrible material circumstances like 21st century Earth, those lines would still be about her life and his life. So yeah, I am for real. Metaphorical hovel. Timeless Appeal posted:My wife made a point that it actually would have been more interesting to see her not living in a future trailer, but suffering the mundanity of living in the Star Trek Utopia. She's this badass woman looking for fights and problems; and she's stuck in this virtuous society just painting or going to dance recitals all-day.
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Feb 7, 2020 03:55
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Eiba posted:I mean, I too already said my piece: I guess we're gonna have to disagree on intention and execution then. But thanks for clarifying this, I appreciate this post.
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Feb 7, 2020 03:56
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Lizard Combatant posted:Holy poo poo, now that would have be interesting. Tell your wife she's great from me. And it would've been a great way to keep a schism between Picard and Starfleet since they'd still not like him going behind their backs
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Feb 7, 2020 03:57
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