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Epi Lepi posted:When does this actually get stated cause I just finished AM and I did not see that at all. Various monks, priestesses and randos in the monastery will comment about how they just got there from the Empire, and barely, having been hunted or attacked. Towards the two-thirds point iirc the church basically ceases to exist there and a lot of the publicly faithful have fled. The implication is that Edelgard Did A Thing There's actually a huge amount of incidental dialogue around the monastery about the war and various goings-on, which is pretty nice. RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Feb 10, 2020 |
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Feb 10, 2020 18:21
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Melomane Mallet posted:Here: Edelgard is emperor of Adrestia; she has every right to kick out the church and institute whatever societal reforms she wants... in Adrestia. The problem is that she's an imperialist who thinks of the Kingdom and Alliance as parts of her empire and therefore she also has the right to tell them what to do, and if she's gotta use an army to do it, that's fine with her. "Stop making me invade you!", etc. Ah yes, merely changing Adrestia itself. That will work, no doubt. It worked so well in history...oh wait, it caused the Church to split the empire from within to lower its power which itself brought other wars. Don't forget that the Kingdom and the Alliance exist explicitly because of Rhea's actions against the Empire. Violence was the literal only option. Both culture and society are controlled by Rhea, and she's made goddamn sure that they'll follow her ideals no matter how many must suffer from it. Even if, miraculously, Rhea didn't subvert your "change Adrestia alone" operation from within - what makes you think she wouldn't just brand them all as heretics and send them to be killed? She sure as hell did that in the story proper and she would definitely do it again because that's her way of keeping her insane plan alive. You either walk the path she set up for you with no questions, serve her in spite of not doing so (Cyril, Shamir) or you die. That doesn't mean Edelgard's actions aren't overboard though. There was no real reason to attack the Alliance beyond paranoia, since Claude was perfectly fine staying out of the war. Part of it was involved, sure, but bringing down the capital is of dubious utility. Faerghus, though, needed to fall no matter what since Dimitri and his people were aggresively pro-Church, and it served them well in how Rhea uncaringly set them on fire.
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Feb 10, 2020 18:23
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Blaze Dragon posted:Ah yes, merely changing Adrestia itself. That will work, no doubt. It worked so well in history...oh wait, it caused the Church to split the empire from within to lower its power which itself brought other wars. Don't forget that the Kingdom and the Alliance exist explicitly because of Rhea's actions against the Empire. The church didn't actually have anything to do with the Kingdom breaking away except for finalizing it and mediating iirc I forget about the Alliance quote:You either walk the path she set up for you with no questions, serve her in spite of not doing so (Cyril, Shamir) or you die. Literally nobody wants Cyril to be there lol, everyone keeps telling him he can leave or be anything but a servant and he refuses
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Feb 10, 2020 18:25
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Part of it is that Edelgard is also a puppet of the Slitherers. Or at least that is their intention. The war was planned for a century, since at least the destruction of the southern church, so Edelgard had little agency regarding whether it would happen or not. Edelgard decided that she could subvert the war from within to accomplish her goals rather than the Slitherers, but she could never have prevented the war. On CF they say that Edelgard really only controls part of the Empire and that a lot are openly or secretly in Slitherer hands.
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Feb 10, 2020 18:29
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Eimi posted:Part of it is that Edelgard is also a puppet of the Slitherers. Or at least that is their intention. The war was planned for a century, since at least the destruction of the southern church, so Edelgard had little agency regarding whether it would happen or not. Edelgard decided that she could subvert the war from within to accomplish her goals rather than the Slitherers, but she could never have prevented the war. On CF they say that Edelgard really only controls part of the Empire and that a lot are openly or secretly in Slitherer hands. Three Houses is a game about the lizard people going to war with the other lizard people, while the mole people in the lizard queen's basement start banging on the ceiling. Meanwhile, three idiots kill each other while the Terminator teaches them how to do it better while learning a little bit themselves about why people cry from a tiny gremlin in their head. The rest of the planet doesn't care at all. RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Feb 10, 2020 |
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Feb 10, 2020 18:33
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Blaze Dragon posted:Ah yes, merely changing Adrestia itself. That will work, no doubt. It worked so well in history...oh wait, it caused the Church to split the empire from within to lower its power which itself brought other wars. Don't forget that the Kingdom and the Alliance exist explicitly because of Rhea's actions against the Empire. Both of these are addressed in my post? The split of the three nations being the church's doing is imperialist propaganda and why would Edelgard care if the church tries to fight her (or say she's a heretic) when she's already willing to fight them.
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Feb 10, 2020 18:38
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I think my favorite bits in the game in retrospect are when Shamir pipes up every now and then with a "what the gently caress is happening on this continent you people are mutant lunatics", as Dimitri tears another human being in half down the middle, or Hilda's Pulsing Nightmare Axe destroys another mech.
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Feb 10, 2020 18:40
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I'm so excited to play through two more times once the DLC comes out aaaaa!!!
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Feb 10, 2020 18:42
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Lazy_Liberal posted:I'm so excited to play through two more times once the DLC comes out aaaaa!!! I would if the fourth pack could be bought alone but since you have to buy all the DLC together I'm genuinely uninterested.
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Feb 10, 2020 18:46
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Lazy_Liberal posted:I'm so excited to play through two more times once the DLC comes out aaaaa!!! I am as ready as I am disappointed that my boy Hubert once again got snubbed on being able to fly.
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Feb 10, 2020 19:05
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Blaze Dragon posted:I would if the fourth pack could be bought alone but since you have to buy all the DLC together I'm genuinely uninterested. Don't you want the climatic battle for the fate of the continent to be fought by a basketball team?
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Feb 10, 2020 19:10
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Blaze Dragon posted:I would if the fourth pack could be bought alone but since you have to buy all the DLC together I'm genuinely uninterested. but how are you gonna chill in the spa or feed the cats unless you buy them???
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Feb 10, 2020 19:11
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Melomane Mallet posted:Here: Edelgard is emperor of Adrestia; she has every right to kick out the church and institute whatever societal reforms she wants... in Adrestia. The problem is that she's an imperialist who thinks of the Kingdom and Alliance as parts of her empire and therefore she also has the right to tell them what to do, and if she's gotta use an army to do it, that's fine with her. "Stop making me invade you!", etc. I agree with this. I also don't get the impression that the church holds enough sway in Adrestia to really get in the way of Edelgard's reforms. After all, the Southern Church was dissolved over 100 years ago. She doesn't really have to kick anyone out since that's already been done. I doubt that the church would have started a war over Edelgard ascending without Rhea present (despite that being a slap in the face), or over her instituting reform within her own country. But if they had, then I suspect that the Alliance would have explicitly sided with the Empire, and I'm not sure how motivated the Kingdom would have been to invade them. In that situation the Empire would have been entirely justified in defending itself. Eimi posted:Part of it is that Edelgard is also a puppet of the Slitherers. Or at least that is their intention. The war was planned for a century, since at least the destruction of the southern church, so Edelgard had little agency regarding whether it would happen or not. Edelgard decided that she could subvert the war from within to accomplish her goals rather than the Slitherers, but she could never have prevented the war. On CF they say that Edelgard really only controls part of the Empire and that a lot are openly or secretly in Slitherer hands. I can kind of see this, but in that case, what is it that Edelgard did to wrest control from the Slitherers later on? What changed after the war where they took care of them (seemingly easily) such that she couldn't have targeted them from the start? I don't like that they were killed offscreen because it kind of implies that they were weaker than maybe they were intended to be, which implies Edelgard had more agency about starting the war than she actually did. Maybe it would have helped to have a few maps where Edelgard's crew has to fight Empire soldiers loyal to the Slitherers inside the Empire, to regain control of Empire territory.
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Feb 10, 2020 19:12
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Genovera posted:I can kind of see this, but in that case, what is it that Edelgard did to wrest control from the Slitherers later on? What changed after the war where they took care of them (seemingly easily) such that she couldn't have targeted them from the start? I don't like that they were killed offscreen because it kind of implies that they were weaker than maybe they were intended to be, which implies Edelgard had more agency about starting the war than she actually did. Maybe it would have helped to have a few maps where Edelgard's crew has to fight Empire soldiers loyal to the Slitherers inside the Empire, to regain control of Empire territory. On most routes she doesn't. On Crimson Flowers its partially because she captures Garreg Mach and gets access to its anti-ICBM field so she doesn't get nuked out of existence. This is also one of the reasons everyone takes care of the Slitherers pretty easily on their own routes, Garreg Mach negates one of their biggest tools and the monastery serves as everyone's HQ on their own routes. The other reason Edelgard is able to break away on CF but not on the other routes is because the war doesn't go nearly as well for the Empire early on. Most of the church leadership and Dimitri escape from the final battle pre-time skip which means the Slitherers can't consolidate power as well as they do on AM/VW/SS and Edelgard is explicitly able to undermine them and they're all still vaguely united against Rhea which means Edelgard has more time to draw support to her. Zore fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Feb 10, 2020 |
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Feb 10, 2020 19:17
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"Ah, yes, Edelgard is totally under the thumb of the Slithers everyone" *Slitherers vanish from the plot after the war starts* "Everyone, the Slitherers have tortured Edelgard since she was a little girl, it fuels her motivation and--" *Slitherers are only dealt with as a literal throwaway line in CF* "If she steps out of line the group who totally controls Fodla--" *Instantly disposes her father, arrests (most) every member of the Seven, and murders one of those seven* *Slitherers do not care* *The Empire does not care, falls into lockstep with Edelgard* I mean the real problem is that the Slitherers are terrible antagonists, but I have issues believing she had to be very careful around the Empire/Slitherers when she takes over the Empire with absolutely zero consequences beyond putting Byleth in a coma maybe. The Slitherers can get around the ICBM field by simply going 'Hey, it's nice of you to huddle in a destroyed monastery, I guess you don't care about Adrestia anymore" and threaten to nuke, you know, the people Edelgard pretends to fight for.
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Feb 10, 2020 19:25
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They can't just reveal they are actual mole people because everyone would turn against them, so they have to play the game of we are nominally loyal Imperial citizens, ignore our mages in plague doctor masks. Zore posted:On most routes she doesn't. This and the fact that with Byleth on her side she has the Sword of the Creator too, which the Slitherers hadn't really planned on. Byleth is a big wild card in terms of what can actually happen. Also clearly winning the war would presumably help El shore up support, and her supporters can focus on more than not dying to the angry boar king or what have you. Airspace posted:"Ah, yes, Edelgard is totally under the thumb of the Slithers everyone" Part of that is the Slitherers want her in charge since they see her as their anti-Rhea weapon. Edelgard leading the empire's army was always the Slitherer plan, afterall they gave her double the crests, one of them being the Crest of Flames for a reason. Also while El was tortured by them, her motivation is more removing what she saw as the motivation for the torture, the crest system that demands a strong ruler to have crests, and not personal revenge against the Slitherers. Her first concern is changing society for the better. The Slitherers do suck rear end and the plot would be better without them. Clearly living underground for so long, their brains atrophied so that their eyes could see in the dark. 
Eimi fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Feb 10, 2020 |
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Feb 10, 2020 19:26
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Why did the sword matter again btw? I forget what was supposed to be important about it except for it being a cool whipsword
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Feb 10, 2020 19:32
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RBA Starblade posted:Why did the sword matter again btw? I forget what was supposed to be important about it except for it being a cool whipsword That Byleth was able to use it properly.
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Feb 10, 2020 19:32
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Hunt11 posted:That Byleth was able to use it properly. Yeah but I mean what does that actually matter for a war plan, not having it didn't stop anyone from invading anything Specifically why did the slitherers care except "Wow! Cool weapon!"
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Feb 10, 2020 19:34
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RBA Starblade posted:Why did the sword matter again btw? I forget what was supposed to be important about it except for it being a cool whipsword It was made of Sothis' spine and didn't have a crest stone. So no one should have been able to use it. The fact Byleth was able to was proof that Rhea's machinations had brought back Sothis in some form. And Sothis was the most powerful of the dragons as shown by even her shade being able to rewind time and break out of the weird dimensional prison.
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Feb 10, 2020 19:35
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RBA Starblade posted:Yeah but I mean what does that actually matter for a war plan, not having it didn't stop anyone from invading anything They cared because it meant that Byleth had the crest of flames and since they didn't have a part in Byleth then they could have ties to Sothis.
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Feb 10, 2020 19:36
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So basically it didn't matter at all to them except it was just something they wanted and it signified they needed to kill someone else, thanks lol
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Feb 10, 2020 19:39
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RBA Starblade posted:So basically it didn't matter at all to them except it was just something they wanted and it signified they needed to kill someone else, thanks lol If you want to ignore everything that was said about the topic then sure that is exactly what it meant.
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Feb 10, 2020 19:40
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The Sword of the Creator is supposed to be a bigger deal in universe, since like Claude seems to think it could level Fodlan's throat and we don't really know if he's wrong about that.
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Feb 10, 2020 19:40
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Eimi posted:The Slitherers do suck rear end and the plot would be better without them. Agreed. They'd have to rework some of Edelgard's stuff but I think they could have made the war feel justified without the Slitherers supposedly forcing it. Perhaps on CF, Byleth's influence could lead her to focusing on improving Adrestia instead of seeking war with the Church, but then the Church starts the war because Rhea thinks she has the right to control society. Then we could all argue about whether or not it was more practical for Edelgard to just start the war herself.
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Feb 10, 2020 19:44
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Hunt11 posted:If you want to ignore everything that was said about the topic then sure that is exactly what it meant. I didn't? You yourself only said it showed ties to Sothis (which they want to kill). It didn't have any bearing on their war or battle plans, or you'd have said it. That's what I was asking.
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Feb 10, 2020 19:45
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RBA Starblade posted:I didn't? You yourself only said it showed ties to Sothis (which they want to kill). It didn't have any bearing on their war or battle plans, or you'd have said it. That's what I was asking. Considering that most of their plan was hunting down the remnants of their ancestral enemy it had a lot to do with their war.
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Feb 10, 2020 19:47
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Hunt11 posted:Considering that most of their plan was hunting down the remnants of their ancestral enemy it had a lot to do with their war. Okay, so what did that actually change in their plans? I don't remember that part of the game at all. Did it escalate them or something and get Edelgard to go for the monastery or did that just happen anyway?
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Feb 10, 2020 19:49
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Genovera posted:Agreed. They'd have to rework some of Edelgard's stuff but I think they could have made the war feel justified without the Slitherers supposedly forcing it. Perhaps on CF, Byleth's influence could lead her to focusing on improving Adrestia instead of seeking war with the Church, but then the Church starts the war because Rhea thinks she has the right to control society. Then we could all argue about whether or not it was more practical for Edelgard to just start the war herself. Eh, I'd still prefer El start the war because that's what's interesting about her. She's proactive and doing something horrible for a benefit down the line. If she's just being defensive it doesn't make her quite as controversial. Like looking at the horrible system she's in and deciding that war is the only way to change it because of who Rhea is gives her so much agency, which is rare to see in a protagonist.
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Feb 10, 2020 19:51
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RBA Starblade posted:Okay, so what did that actually change in their plans? I don't remember that part of the game at all. Did it escalate them or something and get Edelgard to go for the monastery or did that just happen anyway? It makes them a target they specifically moved to kill before everything kicked off.
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Feb 10, 2020 19:54
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The Sword of the Creater and Crest of Flames are both legendary items from a bygone era, where they were the symbols of the goddess blessing a champion to cut down evil. Their plan was to put both in the hands of Edelgard and point her at the church, because that'd mean she had a mandate from Sothis herself to cut down the church of Seiros, which would make it a lot easier to garner popular support for the war. Edelgard may or may not have been on board with that plan, but noped right out when what appeared to be an actual champion of the goddess showed up at the same time, and declared war on the merits of her own beliefs instead, which put Fearghus straight in the church's camp and made her have to contend with Claude and the Alliance's far more mercenary attitude. E: The main thing that changes in chapter 12 is that if Byleth is with her, she doesn't bring any Slitherers for the assault on the monastary, which means Rhea gets away. On VW and SS, they seem entirely unaware that she's scheming to cast them down until Hubert spills the beans post-mortem, while in Crimson Flower it's pretty obvious that both sides are just waiting for the other to blink. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Feb 10, 2020 |
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Feb 10, 2020 19:54
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Eimi posted:Eh, I'd still prefer El start the war because that's what's interesting about her. She's proactive and doing something horrible for a benefit down the line. If she's just being defensive it doesn't make her quite as controversial. Like looking at the horrible system she's in and deciding that war is the only way to change it because of who Rhea is gives her so much agency, which is rare to see in a protagonist. I'm kind of imagining it as a situation where Edelgard being more passive because of Byleth ends up causing some serious problems for their cause. Like you'd still have to win, but kind of frame it in a way where they had to make some serious sacrifices because they lose the initiative. Actually just delete the church route and have a second Edelgard route, one where you help her start the war and one where you convince her not to (leading to the Church starting it). I think that would be a more interesting choice. I don't know, just kind of spitballing at this point. As much as I disagree with what Edelgard does I think she's a very interesting character.
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Feb 10, 2020 20:09
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I'd pay for a bunch of alternate routes as dlc, like if you just say no to Rhea at the start of the game then five years later deal with the hell-war that happened instead, or signing up with the bandits instead A route where you decide the slitherers sound p sweet and get in on that. Your forces are mechs and icbm launchers. Sothis is confused the whole time why you chose that
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Feb 10, 2020 20:12
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Genovera posted:As much as I disagree with what Edelgard does I think she's a very interesting character. Yeah as much as I shitpost I love Edelgard. Less so Edelgard, Emperor of Adrestia. RBA Starblade posted:I'd pay for a bunch of alternate routes as dlc Honestly the game was billed with 'there will be more important decisions beyond just selecting your house' There is exactly one. I'd happily pay 5-10 bucks for restoring that civil war in AM, for instance, or giving Claude something resembling agency.
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Feb 10, 2020 20:18
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I'd like a route where Edelgard and Claude team up to give Dmitri an epic swirlie
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Feb 10, 2020 20:19
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indigi posted:I'd like a route where Edelgard and Claude team up to give Dmitri an epic swirlie 
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Feb 10, 2020 20:20
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indigi posted:I'd like a route where Edelgard and Claude team up to give Dmitri an epic swirlie This but swap Dimitri and Claude.
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Feb 10, 2020 20:20
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Airspace posted:This but swap Dimitri and Claude. i was one of the lords in FETH. mmy name was "Loser Fuckface Nerd " and my catchphrase was "i cant fight them! theyre too strong"
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Feb 10, 2020 20:24
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The most powerful sword In The world, however it is too fragile for anything but the delicate touch of a lesbian,
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Feb 10, 2020 21:19
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ungulateman posted:The most powerful sword In The world, however it is too fragile for anything but the delicate touch of a lesbian, Ironic, that such a phallic weapon,
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Feb 10, 2020 21:20
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